Hello RavenX,

I don't really read posts with distracting levels of bold text. The trick to getting people like me to read things is to be succinct and to the point. Neon highlights are no substitute to good writing.

No offense. A life spent being bombarded with advertisements has lead to eyes that naturally avoid looking at anything that resembles them. 

Very true, my friend. I do understand Lag doesn't come from having a Empire Tree on the side of a screen duh. Lag comes from a computer not having enough memory and processor speed to keep up with what-ever program it's running, be it a game or any another kind of app. That and Lag can come from the Internet too, but we all know the difference between system lag and online lag.

LoL well, kinda, in an abstract way. I'd say your TL:DR explanation there boils it down a tad "too much". I do want a UI. I honestly love All the UI screens and the way they have implemented them so far. It's just all that crap on the left side. On the right side of the screen we get a break down of actions were performed. I.E. *cityname* has completed construction of a garden, or *unit name* has been produced at *city name*. That's fine, I don't mind that, not at all, even when it gets too long, because all you have to do is right click on it and it goes away.

The Tree on the left side how-ever...well, I don't like it. It's fine on small/medium maps, I do however think it's going to cause big problems on Super Huge Maps and Custom Made Huge Maps.

I need to stress this next part, mostly because a lot of replies are repeating it, and I already understand this...anyway:

I Know You Can Tweak and Minimize What You See in the Empire Tree. I get that. Being a Sins player I DO do that. I minimize everything, but, Even When You Minimize EVERYTHING, on a Large Custom Map (of course I add even More stars and planets), once your empire gets Big you still have All those planets on the left side of the screen. EVEN WITH EVERYTHING MINIMIZED.

This works Great in Sins for most people (for some people like me though, not so good). The difference though between Sins and Elemental is Elemental has another line of stuff going down the other side of the screen too. So now not only do you have a line of crap on the left side of the screen, but also on the right side of the screen as well. To me, in My Opinion, this is Too Much Stuff. It really does Break Immersion.

So, in closing, I don't want No UI. Games need to have UI's, whether they are minimal or overwhelming, a UI needs to be there. The best games out manage to have UI's that can do two things simultaneously. The Best UI's Out there ALWAYS do these two things Great. Those two things are:

1. They can give you LOTS of Options and Depth in game-play. Lots of Ways to do things and even multiple ways to do the same thing.

2. They manage to do All of that above, give the best depth of strategical and logistical options, WHILE BEING UNOBTRUSIVE.

THAT is what a GOOD UI should do. If a game's UI fails, it can kill a whole game. No matter HOW AWESOME the game might be and how fun it might be to play, with a lousy cluttered up UI it kills game-play. That can be applied in reverse too. We've all played this type of game, the Type of game that is Awesome and Amazing...but sadly...the UI doesn't give ENOUGH options and it ends up gimping game-play or making the game look "too simple" or "dumbed down".

In both my Personal and Professional Opinions, after Game-Play, a Game's UI is the Second Most Important Factor to making a successful game. By saying that, understand that by saying "Game-Play" in this sentence Game-Play refers to having a fun game, a good and challenging AI, fun and interesting game-play mechanics, and the depth of play to make the game fun without dumbing it down into a game of checkers. All that falls into "Game-Play".

Just like it's true when you say "Without a Good AI nothing else matters", the Very Same Thing can be said (and also be just as TRUE) that "Without a Good UI nothing else matters". You could have all the strategic depth of game-play in the world, with the best graphics, best AI, best Everything....and without a fun and intuitive UI all that is useless. Having a Good UI is the difference between a strategically heavy game being Fun, or being a "Micromanagement Click Fest".

No offense taken, my friend, no worries. I my-self REFUSE to look at Orange Text on a Green Background. I don't know why but my brain freaks out when seeing those colors in combination with each other. I completely understand where you're coming from.

Actually if you completely disable autopinning and set fleets to not show as well, it'll only show whatever planet you have selected (or where you have ships selected at). If you have nothing currently selected, it will show nothing at all. From there you can manually pin the handful of things you actually do want to keep track of, or leave it empty and just use Ctrl groups to hop between things.

Edit: seems Annatar already pointed this out on pg2.

Ahh...I didn't know that. Guess I should have paid more attention to the options (or Annatar's post). Well, that's good then . Just keep that option here and we're all good I think.

Thanks, Kryo

Isn't that the point of a TL:DR version?

Yeap except you boiled it down without enough detail, that's all. hehe

The point is to grossly simplify it, maybe even to the point of making a joke of it.

I was considering just doing this,

TL:DR

Raven loves to BOLD and HIGHLIGHT!

On a side note, I think my color choice was pretty good. 

Better than Raven's, that's for sure. (we you, Raven... despite colour choices):P

LoL I know, my friend, I know. I was messing with you back

and...I agree, that was a better color choice then mine. Next time I'll have to use it instead

Awww, that's almost so sweet I feel icky, Thanks, Winter

lol you guys crack me up sometimes

I really like the left side of the screen, that is how the kings have it, messangers and advisors from different sectors (trade, military, research, etc.) come with information. The right side of the screen is more of a help to make it quicker to navigate, not something from reasonable scenarios.

And RavenX, I'd like to add a third point.

3. It has to be understandable (intuitive but that word is abused) or easy to get into.

That's true. I think the word "Intuitive" is probably the new "it" word for Devs these days. If I had a nickle for every time some-one said it at a E3 press conference this year I'd have as much money as Frogboy...lol.

Note: I watched the press conferences, I wasn't there or anything...sure as hell wish I could have been though. Everyone who went to the Microsoft Conference got one of the new 250 Gig X-Box360 Slims.

And you keep missing the point, because we keep telling you that you can REMOVE things. Not minimized, gone entirely. Something that's not on the tree by definition doesn't take up space.

But the big set of stuff at the bottom doesn't?

Speaking as a software developer, that's often not true at all. When you create lots of options and lots of ways of doing the same thing, you usually wind up confusing people as to how they're supposed to do anything. Power users figure it out quickly, but most newbie users actually want FEWER options and a single way of doing things. Those people get quickly overwhelmed as you throw more options at them.

True, but you haven't given a less obtrusive option. Earlier you were talking about stuff like other screens and how Galciv 2 did it, both of which are a lot more obtrusive then the Empire tree.

Also true, but the Empire tree was a step forward in better UI compared to what we had in the past. Something like the Civ 4 UI is absolutely primitive and annoying in comparison.

That's true, and yes, I got it the first time everyone said it, I justs didn't know what Kryo and Annatar said that I can Turn It Off Completely , Now I know (and knowing is Half the Battle..G.I.Joe!!!) lol

eh...Not really. Why? Because the "big set of stuff at the bottom" has been there for almost every single game ever invented. Sometimes some artificial things become so common-place as to seem to be part of reality.

I'm not "currently" a Developer, but back in my UO days, we OFTEN gave players Multiple Ways to do the Exact Same thing. An example I can use that I think most old school UO players would remember would be some of the spells that could be cast with "Necro-Tokens". When I was told to start laying down the groundwork for the token-book system I asked "What kinds of spells should I be thinking about making?" and I was told "Just copy the effects from some of the other classes current spells..."....Honestly...that's what my boss told me to do.

Half of the (original) spell effects and necro token abilities were straight ripp-offs of other spells and abilities of other classes. To use another example, how many different ways can you Heal Your-self in UO? Lets see, you can drink a potion, you can eat food, you can rest, there are MULTIPLE Healing Spells, you can cast a Healing spell from a Scroll...all multiple ways to do the Exact Same Thing.

Another trend in today's games is to give the player a "Mission Objective" and then give them Multiple Ways to accomplish it. Like they do in DeusEx or Splinter-Cell. You can sneak in, talk your way in, or go in with guns blazing. All Multiple Ways to reach the Same End or do the Same Thing to Accomplish the mission.

Just like in Real Life, half of the "Freedoms" we (our characters) have in video-games is an illusion. It's multiple ways, I.E. with a changed graphic or effect, to do the same thing, like healing your character or casting a damaging spell.

That's nice, but not at all relevant to your original point, which had to do with the UI enabling you to do the same thing in different ways. Having several ways of healing yourself has nothing to do with UI design, but gameplay design. Having several ways of applying a specific healing method (like several ways to toggle rest) is a UI design issue, but you don't talk about that.

Ironically, a UI with several ways of doing the Exact Same Thing is the very definition of "clutter" because in most cases the extra ways take up space and are otherwise not required. There are obviously times where -accessing- a functionality from different places in the UI is a Good Thing. For a very basic example take an RPG, which usually has buttons on the bottom for your character, inventory, etc, which opens up a "common" window with all of those things separated in different tabs. Therefore you can either access your character sheet by clicking the button on the bottom, or if you have that window open already, just click on the Character tab. This is Good, and you notice it does not make anything redundant - it's clear, logical, and functional.

But having multiple ways of opening your character sheet from the main view? Clutter. Having multiple ways of casting a specific healing spell with a static UI? Clutter. The only good way of doing that is if a game has both a spell list and right-click functionality so you can either click a spell then click the target, or just right click target and select the spell.

But overall, you're contradicting yourself by claiming you want to get rid of clutter, then making examples from things that are more often than not clutter themselves. As Tridus pointed out earlier, you're saying to get rid of the Empire Tree (which, note, is in its very first iteration and in no way final) which takes up a marginal portion of the screen and which allows you to interact with cities and units quickly and with added functionality (like trading items), and instead replace it with a separate window which takes up the whole screen and.. has none of that functionality. How does that work?

For instance you can order a build by doubleclicking the improvement or clicking the oppenent and pressing build. This is to make it easy to access but also easier to understand if you jump right into it. You can select the sov by clicking on the tree or by scrolling all over the map to him, or by zooming out zooming in to him. And none of those take screen space except the build button (which doesn't bother me), the tree might take place but it is faster than moving the window manually.

To expand on this, consider this example: You just founded a new city, and you want to move some defenders from one of your existing cities to the new one.

A well designed empire tree, like Sins' - and again note that Elemental's is currently the first iteration and is very basic so it doesn't fall into this yet, but we've been kind of abstract anyway - allows you to quickly find the city with excess defenders, select them, and move them to the new city without having to move your view at all.

A typical separate screen for buildings/armies has you open the screen, find the city, usually double click on it to center your view to the city, then select the units you want to move, then you have to either manually position the camera on the target the city by scrolling or minimap or zoom-out/zoom-in, and finally order the units to move to it.

Which is better UI design? Doesn't take much to say the Empire Tree. Now, Elemental's is nowhere near as good as it should be, but like most things in beta still it's pretty much a skeleton. The solution isn't to scrap it and replace it with clumsy screens, but to give it all the functionality that made the tree in Sins awesome, and hopefully a bit more (for example, a quick hide/unhide button and easier sorting options).

I may be in the same boat as you.  I just had surgery on my right arm last week, and next week I go in for the left arm.  I have nerve damage due to bone spurs growing inside the elbow joints and I don't know if I will have full use of my hands.  So far tho my right hand is coming along nicely.

I wish the best for you and your recovery Raven

You're right. Honestly, I made that post after being awake most of the day and all night in pain. I had just taken 3 Xanax which is my prescribed dosage to go to sleep. I thought I would have time/be able to form a complete thought and tie in the rest of my explanation before the meds kicked in and started knocking me out, obviously I did not. I just woke up and took my pain Meds. Once they kick in I'll be more "normal" and clear headed to make decent replies and form whole thoughts. You're right though, I gave some examples in my post above but didn't tie them in to examples that apply here in Elemental.

To tie-in to some of my "redundant options, think back to Gal Civ 2 and it's "Empire Tree". IIRC, it is a little half-box on the left side of the screen with tabs to look at all your planets, your fleets, etc etc and list them in different ways. When you don't want/need the box you simply click the tab on the side of it and the whole thing slides away unless you open it again. ALSO though, Gal Civ 2 has a whole other screen for looking at your Empire and it's resources like planets, fleets, other ships, armies, planets in range for colonization, etc etc. This is nothing but a More Detailed version of the Gal Civ 2 Empire Tree (Half-Box). Does this screens existence in the game make the "half-box" redundant and useless? Once you go to this "Empire Overview Screen" (I forget what it's actually called in game) you can't even see the game screen (the universe) at all. It does have much more detail and more listing options then the "half-box" but also has some of the Very Same options as well. Personally, I like the tabbed "half-box" and another separate screen much more then I like a line of icons on the side of my screen.

Seeing as how both You and Kryo pointed out that I can indeed make the Whole Thing go away (which I didn't know even after the last year of playing Sins) it makes my whole argument a moot point so long as that Same Option is kept for Elemental as well.

I'm not saying get rid of the Empire Tree entirely. That would actually limit the information available to the player and would obviously be a Bad thing. I also understand it's being worked on, which is Exactly Why I brought it up Now, so they'd have time to implement more options and refine it. As I said earlier in the thread I should have brought this up quite a while ago.

Still, if we can get rid of it or make it better or make it how it works in Sin (turning it off), that pretty much makes everything ok.

Besides, my ignorance caused me to be wrong in this instance, and I'm more then capable of admitting when I'm wrong, like now.

Off Topic:

I appreciate the well wishes, my friend, thank you. I hope you have a Speedy Recovery as well.

Oddly enough, it truly is a "small world", because my mother has more or less the same problem as you. She has pinched disks in her spine, her cartilage is deteriorating, she has two pinched nerves, and she has lost most of the feeling in her right arm. She can feel her thumb and next two fingers, but the rest is Completely numb. Numb as in I.E. She could hold a flame to her arm and Not Feel the flesh burning, "numb". But she can otherwise move the arm just fine.

Every day I have to sit here in this F'King chair (though I should be in bed)...watching my family suffer. See, I was raised Old School. My Mom always had to work to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads and my Grandmother raised me like a Mom normally would while my Mom worked. I never had a steady "Father Figure". Instead my values were instilled in me by my grandmother. She just turned 79 years old last week and she still does all the cooking, cleaning, and is a general "Home Maker" in the womanly sense. She her-self also has some quite (what would be considered today) sexist views on some things and she honestly agrees with them because She Was Raised that way. To give you an idea of how "Old School" Gran is, she was born on a Farm with No Electricity and No Indoor Plumbing, and she Never Learned To Drive and has No Drivers License.

I was raised to believe a Man should work, and a Woman (if she chooses too of course) stays home and raises kids and cooks and cleans and takes care of the house. In today's world though we all know that more often then not living on just One Income isn't possible. My families total income breaks down like this...Gran brings in $800 a month in Social Security and that pays our rent and for her doctors. My Mom, even with her nerve damage, is still working delivering auto-parts and makes around $450 or $500 every two weeks. My wife works part-time at our local Lowes and also gets paid every two weeks. Since her hours vary, she brings in anywhere from between $300 to $500 every two weeks. My income will vary from as much as $1,000 a week ( <--- on VERY Rare Occasions), to as little as $300 a MONTH depending on if I take a big loss in my investments and/or can't find any freelance jobs.

Get well soon, my friend. I Truly hope all goes well and you can move as normally as possible. Gods watch over you, Brother.

This next part is a little long and kinda personal, sorry. If you've lost interest in hearing about my personal woes then by all means please skip it. If you don't read it I won't take Any Offense At All, some people aren't interested in reading other people's semi-personal lives. In-fact, since part of me feels it has no place even being here, I'm going to make the text and background the same color (as I saw another very inventive forum member do as a *spoiler* , can't remember his name atm) so you'll have to highlight it to read it. Sorry, but Thank You if you do, because if you read this long ass sh*t I'll know you're a True Friend. It's really not game related at all I just need to get some stuff out.

My "so called" work, is managing my small investment portfolio, doing odd tech jobs for friends and sometimes family (them understanding they have to bring their systems to me because I can't go get them or do the work at their house), and also through the random Beta Testing work and Software Applications Testing I do, plus what I do through the "Home Testing Institute" which once you get in good with them they start Paying you in Cash instead of the normal "Test this product and you can Keep It" kind of payment. Sometimes I also get offers to write product reviews for various (and quite popular) web-sites. I would point these out for people to go read for themselves but that would mean revealing my Real Name here on the forums and for my own reasons I am un-willing to do that. The only exception to my "real name rule" would be if I got a job offer from Stardock. Only one person here or related to these forums knows my Real Name and that's BoogieBac.

 My personal income varies Greatly depending on a lot of factors. Stocks go up and down and sometimes I miss a good opportunity to make a sale or buy a stock at a cheaper price. Some times I have a lot of free-lance tech work to do, other times none at all. My work in the Industry (meaning in the video game industry) also varies greatly. If not for some of my friends and "contacts" still in the Industry I wouldn't get any work at all in the Industry. Some times I get two or three job offers a week. Other times I'll go a entire month, sometimes two, without any Industry work at all simply because most companies have their own "In House" Testers or other employees who might not technically be "Beta Testers" (as in their job description) but they still get handed the Beta Testing work. Something tells me Stardock doesn't hire any Pure (in the job description) Beta Testers but rather give that work to employees already in the office or they even find forum members who know what their doing and give the work to them knowing they'll happily do it for free (which believe it or not is how some people make their break into the Industry).

My mental state right now, even when unaffected by my meds.....honestly, isn't that healthy either. Because of the limitations I'm placed under being as sick as I am....I don't feel like much of a "Man" right now. I wasn't raised to sit around on my ass and do nothing, sick or not. It kills me inside to be sitting here watching my family suffer...because of me.

Having to see my Grandmother or Mother or Wife go outside and try to mow the lawn or do something else because I can't get up and do it... kills me inside. I had to pay my next door neighbor to fix my lawn mower and recharge my wife's car battery when it died from her leaving the lights on over-night by accident...both of those I could have easily done my-self were I not stuck either laying down or sitting in this F'King chair 24/7 until I go get the surgery. I'm supposed to be on a almost totally liquid diet of nothing but water and juices and nothing with harder consistency of jell-o, pudding, or soups with No hard vegetables ( I.E. chicken broth, beef broth etc etc). So what Exactly is wrong with me you ask? Here you go..

I have Crohn's Disease. I have a Phyrgian Cap in my Intestines. My Gallbladder is Full to Bursting. I also a Unknown Mass and Unusual Loop in my Bowel. I'm praying that "Unknown Mass" isn't Cancerous... If I eat the Wrong thing the Phyrgian Cap could get Lodged Shut OR it could get caught up in the Loop in my Bowel OR my Gallbladder Could Burst and I might Not make it to the hospital in time... My time on this Earth with the rest of you could literally end at Any Moment. Anytime I eat solid food (which I still do, just very little of it) I could Die....Period.

I tell my-self I shouldn't feel bad because I can't do the things I need to do because it's not my fault I got sick. All my friends and family tell me, "Raven, you can't help that this happened to you. You're not responsible for it. It's not your fault."...and I try to believe them. My rational and logical mind knows that's the truth and that is fact, but the other half of my mentality...the part that is mingled in with how I was raised...the part that say "Be a Man, Raven!!! Real Men Ignore Pain and Sickness and do Whatever It Takes to Support their families!!! Now Get The F'K Up and BE A MAN!!!"....that part of me, sometimes...late at night...tells me that since I can't be a man I should take the whole bottle of pain pills and xanax sitting in front of me and and end it and Stop Being a Burden on my Loved-Ones. Sure they'll be hurt and sad after I'm gone, but after time, their lives will be better without me weighing them down.

Now Don't Worry, I would never, Never, EVER, actually do that. I won't kill my-self and no not because I'm afraid I'll burn in Hell for it. I also believe only a Coward takes that way out of life (I'm truly sorry if you have a family member hat did that or a friend, I mean No Offense), and on top of that there's this little thing we each have called a Survival Instinct that kicks in. I DON'T want to Die.

Hmmm...I was going somewhere with this but I lost track of the point I was getting at now, so, I'm gonna stop rambling. I'm sorry I unloaded like this. Normally I would never put this kinda shit out there like that. I haven't opened up like this to strangers since my MySpace Poet days a few years back. Part of me still thinks this doesn't belong on a forums like these so if SD edits this part out of my post, I understand completely.

If you just got done reading all this, Thank You. I would like to think I've made some REAL Friends here on this web-site. Some of the things you people have told me have Honestly made me feel better and feel like I've made a Real Connection with some of you. I'd also like to Thank Stardock for letting me go off on my Rants and Personal stuff that many other companies would have Banned and Blocked me for by now, including companies I've worked for in the past, so, Thank You Stardock.

Thanks for being a friend, it means more to me then you'll ever truly know.

You're Brother, Raven Xavier

Sorry for the Big Blocks of grey-ness there Everyone. Just Ignore It if you want. . Nothing Game Related there.

Wow Raven....the last part of your post is really heart touching...just never give up! I REALLY hope that you will recover. Life is not easy for everyone...sadly.

Thank you Tormy. I knew you'd end up reading it my friend. It means a lot that you did.

Honestly though, the more I read it and re-read it the more I'm just thinking it doesn't belong here on the forums. That's why I never brought it up all this time because I knew I'd get all "MySpace'y" with it and start unloading all kinds of crap everywhere and making other people feel bad and all that...and I never intended to do that. That's what we have "MySpace" for.

Raven, I may not know you (though I love your detailed posts) and I do not even know if you are religious, but I can promise you I will keep you in my prayers.  Sorry if this is creepy.

Don't worry about it. This is a small and friendly community what we got here, and I am pretty sure that most of the posters like you.