Lula posts:

Grace is given to all but not in equal amounts. Some receive more, some receive less. 

The Blessed Virgin Mary was hailed by the Angel Gabriel as "Full of grace". In Acts, St. Stephen was said to be "full of the Holy Spirit" and it's the Holy Spirit who bestows the graces of God merited by our Lord Jesus Christ. I'd say those two at least were holier than others.

God is free to bestow His gifts as He likes. The Blessed Virgin received more than others...that's why she was so "Blessed" among women. Christians receive more grace than the neo-pagans of this world. Are they holier than neo-pagans...I'd say so.

KFC posts:

I know.

He also said, "By the grace of God I am what I am....I have labored more than any of them, yet not I but the grace of God with me."

Paul was a humble man, that's why we call him Saint Paul.

.......................

I just saw this...I must have been posting #150 about the same time as you wrote this. I broke up my response to Whisper2 becasue I didn't want one long, long comment.

Okay..in the chance you find # 150 objectionable, I have created my own blog.

Lula posts:

The part of this that is not true is your assertion "therefore I am saved". That's because believing (faith alone) does not give absolute assurety of salvation. No one has absolute assurety of their salvation this side of heaven. What this amounts to is you have judged yourself saved.  When in truth, Scripture teaches it isn't until we have been judged by CHrist that we know what our eternal destiny is.

We are justified by faith, but not by faith "alone" as Luther impudently perverted this text. St.Paul teaches, "We are justified by a faith that worketh by charity." Gal. 5:6.

KFC posts:

Look closely at the verb tense in Acts 16: 30-31 and then compare that to what you said and the difference reveals your error.

Same thing with St. John 3:16, it says, Whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." If it were as you claim instead of "Whoever believes in Him should not perish" it would read, "Whoever believes in Him will not perish". 

Faith in Christ is the beginning,  the necessary foundation. Along with faith, as we have already seen from St.Paul, there are other conditions to salvation.

KFC posts:

Just as St.John 3:16 and Acts 16:30-31 doesn't make a case for justification by faith alone, neither does Acts 13:39. Verse 38 puts it in proper context.

38 "Be it known therefore to you, brethren, that through Him (the Risen Jesus Christ) forgiveness of sins is preached to you:  And from all the things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses 39 In Him, every one that believeth is justified.

I've also seen this translated as "

"Be it known therefore to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is preached to you:  And by Him everyone that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses."

Regardless of the translation, the message of salvation is that man is justified but not by faith alone. Here faith (belief) is the beginning of salvation, the basis and root of justification, without which "it's impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6.

Notice beside belief, forgiveness of sins is mentioned. Once a man has received faith (believes), with the help of grace man can address God freely, can accept as true everything God has revealed, can recognize that he is a sinner, can trust in God's mercy, and can decide to keep God's commandments and begin to live a new life. Should he persevere in all these, then he's on the way to attaining salvation.

To be saved, we must believe in Christ, without faith justification is impossible. Belief is the beginning for other dispositions are required for faith necessarily leads to action. We must not only believe, we must hope, repent of our sins and be forgiven of them with the firm intention of not doing them any more, and love.

absolutely agree with you here. 

But I AM NOT going into another discussion about faith alone vs works righteousness.  I believe it is faith alone that saves and you believe in a works-based theology along with every other religion on the planet. 

We need to agree to disagree right here.  Been down this path already. 

I asked you for scripture.  You gave me none.  Show me in scripture where some people are holier than others. 

I can give you boatloads of just the opposite but you don't seem to listen when I do.  So now the proof is on you.  Showing me that Stephen and Mary were good guys and filled with Grace does not prove that some people are holier than others.  Nothing bad was ever said about Joseph and Daniel btw.  Two of the most written about and widely used by God but not one bad thing in their lives when even Abraham and David had major screw-ups in their lives. 

The holiest human (in our eyes) would still be closer to Hitler than Christ.  You don't seem to understand about the holiness of God.  He is so holy that even one little sin (and we are all sinners) counts us out totally from his presence.  Remember EVE?  The subject of this blog?  All she did was eat a piece of fruit remember?  One little sin.  She didn't have the distractions of sin available to her that we do.   Even our thoughts are considered sin in God's eyes.  Any little evil little thought that goes against him is sin.  Look at the world around us.  It's absolutely hell for the Christian because he can't move or think without sin entering into his mind because of all that the evil one throws at us. 

That's why Paul cried "I do the things I don't want to do and don't do the things I ought to do." 

Interesting answers both of you, and as interesting as they are, they are just as contrary.

You've spoken of grace, but you've not explained what grace is.  All that I've gotten from both of you is that grace exists.  From one, it was a gift given by Jesus that washes away all sin, past, present and future, just for believing in Jesus's existance.  From the other, it must be earned and there are varying degrees of it, and it is something real that it adorns the soul, making it pleasing to God.  Wasn't the soul that God originally gave to man, pleasing in it's own right?  Or are you telling me that God gave man a soul that really didn't please God?

What I want to know is what it is, how it is obtained, because according to revelations not everyone will posess it, and the steps that are necessary to take that will lead one to it.  As Jesus said there would be many that shall say that they knew him, but Jesus will deny that they ever did.  In other words is faith in the existance of the man enough?

The only thing that I did see reason in was Pauls statement that he was "the chief of all sins".  Very appropriate indeed.  However I do disagree with Paul when he said  “As by the offense of one,  unto all men to condemnation".   Apparently Paul either forgot his Genesis, or he didn't know what he was speaking of.  There were in fact those relatives of Adams who were close to him in his timeline that "walked with God" and were never seen by men again.

"Notice beside belief, forgiveness of sins is mentioned. Once a man has received faith (believes), with the help of grace man can address God freely, can accept as true everything God has revealed, can recognize that he is a sinner, can trust in God's mercy, and can decide to keep God's commandments and begin to live a new life. Should he persevere in all these, then he's on the way to attaining salvation."

Isn't this what Jesus lived, during his lifetime on earth?  And isn't this what you both told me was not for everyone, but only for the few, when I pointed out that Jesus showed the way to life everlasting in the example of his own life in trusting god for all things?  And isn't this what both of you told me was not for everyone, but only for the few?  I think that that is where you will find "grace", and no where else.

I did not go into it further here becasue KFC is intolerant of the Catholic viewpoint.  Did you read post # 149?

where KFC posted:

I will respond to your question more in depth including linking grace to the New Covenant on my blog: https://forums.joeuser.com/386413

KFC posts:

Yes, it's clear by your comments that you believe you have been saved by faith alone. But you have the infallibly words of Saint James that says something different.

2:14-26

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

KFC posts:

So is the Blessed Trinity Catholic terminology...is the Blessed Trinity Biblical?

Yes, indeed showing that St.Stephen and the Blessed Virgin Mary were full of grace proves they were holier than others.

It goes to understanding grace.  If one's soul is full of God's grace (His supernatural life) then there is no sin there. If something is full (in this case the soul is full of grace) there is no room for anything else (in this case sin). 

A Godly person such as were Daniel and Joseph is a holy person.

And there are degrees of holiness.

if you read that in context you'd see clearly that while many SAY they are doing things for Christ they are not.  They are depending on their works to get them into heaven (Lula) and Jesus is going to look at them and say "I do not know you."  It's not our works he wants.  It's our heart.   They were PROFESSORS of the faith...but NOT POSSESSORS.  There's a big difference.  Those too busy working their way in will miss the boat.  It's not about works but about relationship with the Savior. 

that's not true.  I told you Grace was unmerited favor and gave you an illustration.  That's what Grace is.  Unmerited favor.  We are receipiants of what we don't deserve.  Simple.  It's not that difficult. 

this is heresy and quite unbiblical.  I knew you felt Mary was sinless, now you're saying Stephen is? 

As far as faith and works...I already told you Lula..been there done that.  I'm not going into it anymore with you.  It's just rehashng what we've already gone over.  You're still working your way in.  I get that.     By your believing this it really nullifies the cross big time.  When he said "it is finished."  He meant it. 

 In order to believe what you believe James is saying is to contradict Paul.  Eph 2:8-9.    James did not contradict Paul. 

and you still did NOT give me scriptures on showing me where it says one person can be holier than another. 

You just keep repeating yourself over and over as if that settles it. 

This is a silly false accusation. How many times on this blog alone have I said that faith is the beginning, the base? As far as faith and works I believe St. James teaches the relationship best.

I have not read many are doing works for Jesus but they claim that they "knew" him.  Please quote the passage in which this explanation is found. 

"Grace is unmerited favor."

May I ask who told you this, or even where you read it?

Why would anyone believe that they need make no effort of their own in order to receive a bestowal of grace?  Why in the bible does it say that all will be judged by their works and by what dwells in their heart?  Imagine what the idea of not having to earn God's grace would mean to God.   No one is just simply entitled to grace, no matter what they believe.  And if they truly believed in Jesus they would have no problem following in his footsteps and relying totally on God as he did, he was after all the light, the truth, and the way, and that was meant literally not subjectively.   In order to have life everlasting just like Jesus told the rich man, one must follow Jesus.  In order to follow him, one must walk his path.

I am of the mind that nothing is "free" or "unmerited".  All punishment or reward is earned.  It is written throughout the bible as being so.  Jesus did not come to change the law, and he said so.

you have but every time I dare mention that we are saved by faith (alone) or imply it in any small way you jump on the works bandwagon.  Works are important.  Got that.  It's just not a component necessary for salvation.  When we say so, we nullify the work of Christ.  He did the work...we accept it (saved) now get to work. 

I believe we are saved by faith alone, but our faith is never alone (works) which is different than the RCC teaches. 

you can actually look it up in a dictionary.  It comes from the Greek word Charis and has various uses that which bestows or occasions pleasure, delight, or causes favorable regard.  To be in favor with is to find "grace" with.  You don't earn grace, you receive it. 

Because the very nature of grace is that you receive it with no effort of your own.  Grace is unmerited favor from one to another.  Someone, outside of yourself bestows to you Grace meaning you don't deserve it but it's given anyhow. 

another example..you're speeding down the highway and a cop pulls you over.  You deserve a ticket because you were exceeding the speed limit.  Instead, he decides to let you off with a warning.  He has extended to you grace.  You didn't deserve it.  There's nothing you could have done.  He had every right to write that ticket. 

I'm not sure which scripture you are referencing but we will all be judged by our works meaning our works or the works we have in Christ.  In His work on the cross. 

As a born again, blood bought believer my righteousness is nothing.  I'm only made righteous in Him.  I'm covered in HIS righteousness, not my own.  My rightesousness, as scripture says is like filthy rags.  Scripture is all about coverings....remember Noah covered the boat in pitch?  That was kapher which means "atonement."  He was kept alive by the grace of God.  He didn't deserve it anymore than anyone else but Noah found Grace in God. 

Adam and Eve tried to cover themselves after their sin but it was inadequate.  That's a picture of human effort.  It's not good enough.  God lovingly covered them remember?  That's what He does to us spiritually as well when we come to belief in His son and His sacrifice.   He covers us in the blood of Christ.  Only a blood offering will do.  A bloodless offering cannot do because God set it up that the "life is in the blood" and therefore it's always been a "life for a life." 

yes, follow me He said.   So I agree. 

The wages of sin is death.  Yes.  We sin.  We die.  Pretty simple.  Since we all sin, we can all expect death...except. ..

Christ came and paid that debt on our behalf.  But there's a catch.  It's called belief and acceptance.  If you believe with all your heart, then his death is your death.  He died in your place.  If you don't believe and think you can take care of yourself, be forewarned you can never earn enough brownie points to escape the sin death which is a huge burden to undertake. 

Jesus did not come to change the law but to fulfill it.  He did that on the cross.  Read Romans 6:16-23

@ Lula...

back to the holier than thou discussion 

You say Mary and Stephen were made perfect and they had no sin.  I say, there's a greek word for that.  It's balogna. 

What if I said I believe Joseph and Daniel were "more perfect" or holier than your two?  Remember they are two major characters in scripture where there is nothing bad said about them.  You can even point to where Mary was wrong on occasion but you can't with Daniel and Joseph. 

Also.  Think about Job:  This was said about Job:

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.
Job 1:1

That wasn't said about Mary or Stephen.  Where does it say they were blameless and upright?  Or how about Moses?  Being blameless and upright doesn't mean without sin since the bible is clear that "all have sinned,"  "all have gone astray." 

"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unot Moses whom the Lord knew face to face."  Deut 34:10

"Now the man Moses was very meek above all the men which were upon the face of the earth."  Num 12:3

or how about David who is was said "was a man after God's own heart?" 

or how about Noah?  "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."  Gen 6:8

None of these great people (including the two you cited) were without sin.  Not one was "holier" than another.  They were all chosen for the work of God.  He had a specific purpose for them and they rose to the occasion.  All of them.  We are no different.  God expects us to follow him when He calls us.  He gives us each gifts and abilities and expects that we use them.  Remember what Jesus said "the last shall be first and the first shall be last?" 

Not one of these great men/women of the faith lorded it over each other or anybody.  They humbly knew they were where they were by the grace of God. 

That's how we are to be.  That's how we are to approach any ministry we are given.  Not high and lifted up because as God says, the proud will fall but the humble will be lifted up.  It's not the great and mighty things of this world but the lowly and meek that are most important in the eyes of God. 

St.James refutes your saved by faith alone bandwagon.  If you call citing St.James 2:14-26 jumping on the works bandwagon, then I guess I'm guilty as charged!

KFC,

 According to St.James works are very important and necessary for salvation. Here St.James "works" are of the New Covenant of Grace.

In contrast, St. Paul taught that becasue we are redeemed by Christ's Cross,  the "works" of the Old Law are not necessary for salvation.

no, James is saying that works are evidence of your faith.  No works...no faith.  Simple.   If you have faith, you'd have works to show for it.  If you have no works..then your faith must be dead.  An alive faith will have works attached. 

It's like the fruit tree Jesus was speaking about in John 15.  A good tree is going to produce good fruit.  If we are attached to Christ (he is the vine we are the branches) then our branches are going to produce fruit. 

We are saved by faith alone but our faith is never alone. 

That's why I keep bringing up certain scriptures like Eph 2:8-9 because it contradicts your position.  Scripture is very clear that WE ARE NOT saved by works but by the work of Christ.  It's His work, not our own.  We need a Savior outside of ourself.  If it were as you say then surely God could have arranged some other way than having his own son crucified.  You're putting too much emphasis on works and not enough on faith. 

so to rephrase...Works ARE very important BUT are NOT necessaary for salvation because it's not our works that save us but Christ's. 

also..for HW..go over and read John 1:13 very carefully and compare with James 1:18.  Notice what it says about our salvation.

Absolutely agree.

You call them great. I call them great and holy. All these holy people in the Bible were very humble. 

They are models of the other virtues such as chastity, meekness, temperance and brotherly love as well.

..............

I disagree.

The Blessed Mother of Christ was without sin from the moment of her conception in her mother Anne's womb. She received a superabundance of God's grace from the moment of her conception. Jesus could never have been in the tabernacle of her womb had she been under the effect of original sin or actual sin. Of all of God's creation, because she was to be the Mother of Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary is the only exception; she was always "full of grace".

But we've already discussed this up, down and all around, and it boils down to us having a completely different understanding of grace as well as the effects of grace upon the soul. 

Grace is the antithesis to sin and I'll explain further in my blog.

St.James is teaching both our faith in Christ and doing good works are necessary for salvation. Faith alone doesn't get it and works alone doesn't get it.  

St.James is teaching good works are necessary because without them faith is dead. He proves this by teaching  that even demons believe in God (have faith alone).

This is a catchy little phrase, but it's incorrect. Even demons believe but they are not saved by faith alone.

I absolutely agree that we are not saved by our works...and that we need a Savior outside of ourselves.

But you have redemption and salvation mixed up.

Scripture is very clear that we are redeemed by the work of Christ, not that we are saved.  Rather with the generous gift of God's grace through the merits of Christ's Cross, we are to make a genuine effort to work out our salvation.  St.Paul tells us so...THerefore my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now....with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish according to His good will." Phil. 2: 12-13.

Not sure where you are going with this. St.John 1:12-13 speaks of being made the sons of God...that's done through the supernatural graces given by the Holy Spirit at Baptism...where original sin and actual sin is washed away and we are given new life in Christ.  

Interestingly, link St.John 1:12-13 with Phil. 2:14-15

After being told by St.Paul to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, he goes on and says, "Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world."

At Baptism, our rebirth is by the gift of sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit.  It is a  generation of a supernatural life and a thorough inner renewal and real sanctification 1Cor. 6:11. The soul becomes beautiful and holy. Should we die in this state of grace, becasue our soul is holy it can be admitted to heaven, where nothing unclean is allowed.

"No works...no faith. Simple. If you have faith, you'd have works to show for it. If you have no works..then your faith must be dead. An alive faith will have works attached."

What sort of works do you define as"'works based in faith"?

"The wages of sin is death.  Yes.  We sin.  We die.  Pretty simple.  Since we all sin, we can all expect death...except...."

Are you talking about the physical death here, or are you speaking of "the death"? 

Whisper2,

Since I would like to respond to your comment in depth I shall do so on my blog concerning grace that I referred in post 157.

I shall read your topic Lulapilgrim.