The Very First Lady-Eve

A Marriage Made In Paradise

from JoeUser Forums

Last weekend I was asked to speak at a woman's luncheon for Mother's Day.  When I inquired as to what they wished for a subject matter they left it up to me.  So I thought about it for a day or so.  Then I came up with Eve.  Why not?  Afterall she was the mother of us all.  Since I've never heard a Mother's Day Sermon on this topic I decided I'd tackle it myself.   

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.  Even so, the message gets clouded by the cultures.  In the Eastern culture we know that women are surpressed.  In the Western culture women are aggressive and domineering more than ever.  During the days of Christ the Jews kept their women as subservient.  I heard that that it's written about the Torah that it would be better to burn it than to teach it to women! 

But what does the bible say about woman's role in society?  What is their purpose?  Jesus did much to elevate women during His time on earth and they loved Him.  It was to a woman He first announced He was the Messiah.  It was to women He first revealed Himself as risen from the dead.  He delivered at least one woman from unjust justice. 

Women were used mightily by God.  I think of Rahab who God used to save two spies facing sure death as a result if caught.  I think of Miriam who was a prophetess and ministered alongside her brother Moses.  Deborah was a judge and leader who was chosen to deliver God's people during the terrible days of the Judges.  Esther helped save her people, the Jews, from sure extermination and Lydia was a business woman who was instrumental in starting a first century church out of her home. 

So we come to Eve.  We know very little of this first lady.  We do know she was God's final creative work in the first week.  She was also a companion for Adam.  But there's more. 

Everything started out well in the garden although it didn't end that way thanks to Eve and her husband.  Eve led her husband into direct violation of God's revealed will to them.  So they were banished from Paradise.  She is a very human portraid of falling into sin but also of picking up the faith afterwards. 

She was created for a unique role in creation.  She was to minister to Adam and with Adam being his help-mate.  She was designed to complete him as well as assist him.  We read this in Genesis 1:26-28:

"And God said Let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.  And God blessed them and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 

Did you see the word "them?"  This was for both of them. A job for two.  These things were too great for them to do alone.  We see a few things about God's purposes for mankind here. 

1.  To be like Him; to reflect God's image in creation.  It took both of them to do this.  We think of God as a He and that pronoun is used but it takes both man and woman to accurately reflect God's image.  We think of God as mighty, powerful, just, logical, strong, etc. but He's also depicted in scripture as loving, tenderhearted, merciful, gracious etc.  We see both male and female characteristics in Him. 

2.  They were to rule over creation.  They were given authority over all the earth.  Together.

3.  They were to reproduce; be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.  Together.

So zooming in on Eve let's look at why she was created.  What is her purpose for being created?  Gen 2:18-22:

"And the Lord said It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper for him.  And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them and whatsoever Adam called every living creature that was the name.  And Adam gave names to all cattle and to the fowl of the air and to every beast of the field but for Adam there was not found a helper for him.  And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh.  And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman and brought her to the man." 

1.  Adam was not complete by himself.

2.  It was not good.  Even in Paradise something was not good.  Seven times, it was mentioned in the first chapter after God created, God said that "it was good" until we get here to 2:18 which says "it was not good." 

3.  Man was completed with need.  He was created incomplete.  He was made complete with Eve. 

4.  She was to be a helper suitable for him. 

Looking a bit further we can see some principles for the marriage relationship right here that brought this first couple together in Holy Matrimony. 

Genesis 2:23-24

"And Adam said this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man.  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh."

We see that God brought Eve to Adam.  It wasn't Adam's job to find a mate which makes me wonder looking around today at all the broken marriages.  How many consulted God in the choosing of their mate?   What would it have been like if they did?  God know more than we do so why don't we ask Him first?  

Unlike the animals she was like him.  She was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.  She was perfect for him.  The relationship necessitated him to leave his mother and father.  Obviously this was meant for future generations because these two were a special first couple with no parents.  This marriage required cleaving and the Hebrew word implies "to be joined by commitment."   Marriage is a commitment not a feeling or an emotion.  We need to stick it out, stay together and work things out as much as possible with us. 

Marriage results in being one together.  This one flesh points to the physical body but in principle also includes all that a person is; mind, emotions, will etc.  One cares for the other as one would care for oneself. 

And marriage results in nakedness without shame.  They had no shame.  They were naked and it was good.  This, again, goes beyond the physical.  We need to be open and up front with each other.  There should be no hiding, no secrets from each other. 

So everything started out well.  Until Eve was tempted.  Then everything changed.  She entered into a discussion with a serpent.  Is it no wonder women and snakes don't get along today?  We'll start there next time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

religion
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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

I've always wondered why Eve is considered such a bad example by most people.  I agree with you, she was the first to eat the forbidden fruit, then tempted Adam, but she later not only rose above that act, but became the woman she was meant to be.

I've heard people say that Eve was somehow an afterthought for God.. that He decided to create woman as a result of some realized mistake.  Like God looked down and thought.  "WOW, I made a male and female of all species, how did I miss that?  My bad." ;~D

But we know from Genesis 1:26-28 that He actually created both at the same time.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.   28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Of course he placed their bodies into the garden at different times, using the dust of the earth to create a body for Adam and a rib from Adam's side to create a body for Eve. 

This teaches us that God didn't put one before the other... and as you point out, Chris never once taught that women should be considered lower than men.

To me Eve is more an inspiration than a villain.  She had every reason to completely shun God.  She could have blamed Him for every hardship she went through after being cast out of the Garden of Eden.  She could have whined that her punishment was too severe and taught her kids to resent God and the life they have.. in fact, she could very well have refused to obey the 'Be fruitful and mulitiply" commandment.

Where would mankind be if she didn't humble herself and repent from the evil she committed?

 

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

He actually created both at the same time

No he couldn't have. Remember Chap 1 is an overview and Chap 2 is topical so it centers around the creation of the first couple only in Chap 2.    He had to put Adam to sleep so Adam was created first.  Also Paul wrote:

"For Adam was first formed then Eve."  1 Timothy 2:13

We can't know exactly the diff between the time periods but we can see that God made mention:

"it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper."  2:18 and

"Adam gave names to all cattle and to the fowl of the air and to every beast of the field but for Adam there was no heper for him."  2:20

So thy couldn't have been made at the same time.   And if you look at 2:15-18 you'll see it was only Adam that God put into the garden first and only Adam that he gave the command to.  It was only Adam who named all the animals (must have taken some time) and then he put him to sleep creating Eve from his rib. 

but yes, God had in mind right from the beginning that both would be created so it's as you said it wasn't a mistake and I imagine Adam was some excited to wake up from that nap! 

To me Eve is more an inspiration than a villain.

She was human.  I think we can learn from each other's mistakes more than anything.  I see Eve's failure here but soon I will show her faith after the fall. 

All too often male Preachers love to preach on the Proverbs 31 woman.  It's like the perfect example of womanhood that is not attainable.  Woman groan when they hear of her. Solomon wrote that piece but he himself having had 1,000 wives still never found this perfect woman.   But Eve is someone we can all relate to and I've never once heard a Mother's Day sermon on her.  Have you? 

Where would mankind be if she didn't humble herself and repent from the evil she committed?

I don't see her humbleness until she had Seth. Is that where you see it?  Then I think she finally got it.  I'll explain what I mean when I continue onto the next section. 

 

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

You are assuming that their bodies were made the same time as their spirits.  Adam's body was made of the dust of the earth, but his spirit wasn't.  Eve's body was formed from one of Adam's ribs, but her spirit isn't from a rib.

All too often male Preachers love to preach on the Proverbs 31 woman.  It's like the perfect example of womanhood that is not attainable. 

I guess that depends on what preachers you are listening to.

I don't see her humbleness until she had Seth. Is that where you see it?  Then I think she finally got it.  I'll explain what I mean when I continue onto the next section. 

Cain and Abel were both raised to offer sacrifices.  We have no record of exactly who taught them to do that, but it's a fair guess that they were taught by their parents.  Cain didn't just pop into existance when he offered the rejected sacrifice.  In fact, if he wasn't ever taught how an acceptable sacrifice was to be done, he never would have known he was rebelling.

Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top

You are assuming that their bodies were made the same time as their spirits. Adam's body was made of the dust of the earth, but his spirit wasn't. Eve's body was formed from one of Adam's ribs, but her spirit isn't from a rib

Well that's how it looks when you read it.  God created Adam and then breathed into him.  I can't see anything that says they were created at the same time as I outlined above. 

I guess that depends on what preachers you are listening to.

many different ones over the years and from diff denominations.  Popular Mother's Day Sermons seem to either be the story of Hannah or the Proverbs 31 Virtuous Woman but I've heard others around Ruth and Naomi, Mary and Jesus at the wedding of Cana etc.  I've just never heard one on Eve before and she was named Eve by Adam because she was the mother of all living.  What kind of messages do you hear on Mother's Day? 

Cain and Abel were both raised to offer sacrifices

Ya, but I'm not going to go that far.  My subject is more centered around Eve.  But the story of Cain and Abel is very interesting.  There is a debate centered around what was offered and why Cain's was not accepted. 

 

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

So are you saying that creating Eve was some "plan B" that God had to come up with after realizing he didn't create a female human?   Do you think that God's plan was frustrated when Eve ate the fruit?

Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top

So are you saying that creating Eve was some "plan B" that God had to come up with after realizing he didn't create a female human? Do you think that God's plan was frustrated when Eve ate the fruit?

no to both.  How do you get that I think that from reading what I wrote?  Did you not read when I said this: 

but yes, God had in mind right from the beginning that both would be created so it's as you said it wasn't a mistake

All I'm saying is like I wrote in #2 it's clear they were made separately.  Not together as you first mentioned.  It's not even a debatable topic because it's written so clearly so I'm not understanding your point here. 

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

 

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.

True....Hmmmm....so why not one word in your entire article about the most important Mother of all.....The Blessed Virgin Mary?

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

 

As Adam was a type of Jesus Christ, Romans 5:14, Eve was a type of Our Lady. Through Adam, sin and death came to all mankind; and through Jesus Christ we have received grace and eternal life. Eve consented to sin, and by her fiat, the Blessed Virgin Mary consented to redemption by consenting to becoming the Mother of the Redeemer. Eve, by her sin, brought misery on mankind, and the Blessed Mother through her Son brought salvation. 

Eve was, in a natural sense, according to the flesh, the mother of all the living and the Blessed Mother Mary was so in a supernatural sense the spiritual Mother of all the faithful. 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

the Blessed Mother Mary was so in a supernatural sense the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

you can back this up with scripture? 

True....Hmmmm....so why not one word in your entire article about the most important Mother of all.....The Blessed Virgin Mary?

Did you notice that it says in Gen 3:20 that Eve is the mother of ALL living?  Never says that about Mary.  And she's not the most important Mother of all.  She's important yes, but not the most important even though it says she is blessed AMONG women.  If it wasn't for Eve, Mary wouldn't even have been here. 

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

Where in the world did you get this from?  Scripture please?   Mary married the Holy Spirit?  Are you kidding? I've never ever heard such a thing nor can it be backed up with scripture.   So Mary committed adultery when she married Joseph? 

 

 

 

 

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.

She's important yes, but not the most important even though it says she is blessed AMONG women.

But not the most important you say? .......Who then is more important than the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Oh wait....you've already answered...in your estimation Eve is. How incredibly sad!

As I said.....not one word in your entire article about the most important Mother of all...the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top

.......Who then is more important than the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Oh wait....you've already answered...in your estimation Eve is. How incredibly sad!

the only reason you're saying such things Lula is because of your Mary worship of her.  It's an emotional issue with you because of your training.  I know because I was going in that direction.  I clearly remember well my devotion (misplaced) when it came to Mary as well.  It's part of the RCC catechism. 

God gives each one of us gifts and talents.  We are all unique.  She's  unique in the fact she was used as a vessel to birth the Savior.  No one else can claim that.  Eve is unique because she was  created as the first woman with no mother or father and she came from man where the rest of us come thru women.  No one else can claim what Eve went thru.  Same with Esther, Ruth, Hannah etc. 

Even Eve recognized the Savior would come from her when she said what she said at the birth of Seth (if you read my third entry on this subject).   She knew the seed would come from her initially thru Seth.  Mary came from Ruth's line and so forth.  If it wasn't for Ruth there would be no Mary.  If it wasn't for Eve there would have been no Ruth.   

I noticed you never gave any scripture reference to my requests for it.  This is where scripture and tradition part ways Lula.  Let's stick to scripture and we should be able to mostly agree. 

 

 

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

.......Who then is more important than the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Oh wait....you've already answered...in your estimation Eve is. How incredibly sad!

Your continuance in holding up Eve shows that you still stubbornly refuse to accept the obvious.

 

 

 

 

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

Where in the world did you get this from? Scripture please?

It's there. Prophesied in Isaias and fulfilled in St. Luke and St. Matthew.

 

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

lula

.......Who then is more important than the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Oh wait....you've already answered...in your estimation Eve is. How incredibly sad!

the only reason you're saying such things Lula is because of your Mary worship of her

False accusation.

It would go a long way in your theological growth to learn the difference between worshipping and honoring the Mother of God.

It is precisely because she is the Mother of Jesus Christ that Catholics honor her (while it's obvious you don't to the point of neglect as least as far as your article is concerned)!

 

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

Prophesied in Isaias and fulfilled in St. Luke and St. Matthew.

soooooo that's it?  That's how you back up your statement with scripture?  Hmmmmm. 

Let me ask again... where in scripture does it say that Mary was married to the Holy Spirit? 

Where does it say that Mary is the mother of all the spiritual? 

I showed you exactly where it says Eve was the mother of all living (Gen 3:20).  So far you haven't proven your end of things.  There's a reason for your skirting the issue.  It's all tradition Lula.  Not scriptural. 

Besides...this article was about Eve.  Not Mary.

 

Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top

.......Who then is more important than the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Oh wait....you've already answered...in your estimation Eve is. How incredibly sad!
Your continuance in holding up Eve shows that you still stubbornly refuse to accept the obvious.

You know what's really sad Lula?  Someone who is so indoctrinated by a religion they don't see the obvious nor would they accept it if it were shown them.  That is really sad.  :'(

 

 

 

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

Let me ask again... where in scripture does it say that Mary was married to the Holy Spirit?

 Scripture doesn't say this and I never said such a thing.

This is what I wrote.

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

And this was your reply:

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

KFC posts:

Where in the world did you get this from? Scripture please? Mary married the Holy Spirit? Are you kidding? I've never ever heard such a thing nor can it be backed up with scripture. So Mary committed adultery when she married Joseph?

The first 2 questions make sense, while the others are you taking what I said and going off on a rather nutty tangent.

And back to the top of this post.....you then turn around and ask me to show where your nutty questons are found in Scripture.

 

 

 

 

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

This is what I wrote.

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh

Semantics Lula.  You don't like my nutty question because I'm reading you're saying Mary was married to the Holy Spirit?  Well isn't that what "spouse" means?

spouse

  // // \"spouse", "6");interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high");interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t");interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.dictionary.com%2Fdictstatic%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FS08%2FS0841300.mp3&clkLogProxyUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fwhatzup.html&t=a&d=d&s=di&c=a&ti=1&ai=51359&l=dir&o=0&sv=00000000&ip=62f4fa1f&u=audio"); interfaceflash.addParam('wmode','transparent');interfaceflash.write(); // ]]>  [n. spous, spouz; v. spouz, spous] Show IPA noun, verb, spoused, spous·ing.
–noun
1.
either member of a married pair in relation to the other; one's husband or wife.
–verb (used with object)
2.
Obsolete . to join, give, or take in marriage.

 

 

 

ok then I'll play your "nutty" game...show me in scripture where Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit?  And stop dancing around the subject.  Just answer the question. 

 

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

Last weekend I was asked to speak at a woman's luncheon for Mother's Day. .....Then I came up with Eve. Why not? Afterall she was the mother of us all. 

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.

Women were used mightily by God.

I showed you exactly where it says Eve was the mother of all living (Gen 3:20). So far you haven't proven your end of things. There's a reason for your skirting the issue. It's all tradition Lula. Not scriptural.

I agree that Eve was the mother of all the living..this is the least of it.

Since I've never heard a Mother's Day Sermon on this topic I decided I'd tackle it myself.

Besides...this article was about Eve. Not Mary.

And where in my view your omission of the BVMary speaks volumes.

Given that you wrote about mothers and emphasised that women are important to ALmighty God, I found it very sad that you would completely omit the BLessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God. To me, she is the most important Mother of all mothers as our Redemption began from the moment in which she said be it done unto me.....and became the Mother of God. It is therefore reasonable, just and right that all Christians should honor Mary as the cause of our joy through whom our Redeemer was given to us.  

Both were in a state of grace, but Eve lost grace while Mary preserved it and increased it by corresponding with it. St.Luke 1:28;38. Eve thooughtlessly allowed herself to be deceived by the devil without asking herself whether it were a good or evil spirit who spoke through the serpent, but Mary pondered and asked herself whether the saluation of the angel came from God or not. St.Luke 1:28-30. Eve conversed with the devil for the ruin of mankind, Mary with the angel Gabriel, for the salvation of mankind. Eve sinned with unbelief, while Mary believed in the message God sent through Gabriel and freely agreed to it. v.38. Eve sinned by pride while Mary was always most humble. Eve was disobedient while Mary gave herself over entirely to God's will. Eve consented to sin: Mary to God's will. Eve by her pride degraded herself and brought sin and death on all mankind, while Mary by her humbleness was filled with grace and through her Divine Son gave grace and life to the world.

lula posts:

.......Who then is more important than the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Oh wait....you've already answered...in your estimation Eve is. How incredibly sad!

You know what's really sad Lula? Someone who is so indoctrinated by a religion they don't see the obvious nor would they accept it if it were shown them. That is really sad.

And your Protestant religion has you so indoctrinated against the unique specialness of the Blessed Virgin Mary that you fail to recognize that EVE WAS THE MOTHER OF THE CURSE, MARY OF THE BLESSING.

I wonder would you ever dare speak of these striking contrasts between Eve and the Blessed Mother to other Protestants?

 

Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top

and the dancing continues......

Given that you wrote about mothers and emphasised that women are important to ALmighty God, I found it very sad that you would completely omit the BLessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God.

AGAIN...listen carefully.  This article was NOT about Mary.  It was about EVE.  Mary was NOT the mother of us all.  Eve was the mother of Mary.  She was the mother of us all.  You keep ignoring my requests for you to show me ANYWHERE in scripture where it says Mary is the mother of us all.  Instead you're like a two year old with a Mary tantrum. 

I left out many other mothers in scripture for this article.  One of the most sermonized mothers of all is Hannah and I didn't expound on her either.  Another is Naomi (Ruth's mil).  Soooooo what? 

EVE WAS THE MOTHER OF THE CURSE, MARY OF THE BLESSING.

I don't have a problem with that comparison but it still has nothing to do with my subject matter.  I didn't write about Mary.  I wrote about Eve.  You got a problem with Eve? 

I wonder would you ever dare speak of these striking contrasts between Eve and the Blessed Mother to other Protestants?

The bible doesn't make such contrasts so why should I?  If you notice in  Romans it's all about the contrast between Adam and Christ.  Not a word about Eve/Mary.  Why do you suppose? 

 

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 12

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

KFC posts:

Where in the world did you get this from? Scripture please?

lula posts:


It's there. Prophesied in Isaias and fulfilled in St. Luke and St. Matthew.

 

kfc posts

soooooo that's it? That's how you back up your statement with scripture? Hmmmmm.

You asked ....I supplied the Scripture and only some of it.

That the Blessed VIrgin Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit is a Divine Mystery given to us by God.

"Spouse" here is not as you think in the physical, natural, earthly sense, but in the supernatural sense.   

Isaias 7:14, prophecy gives us a hint..... "Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel."

By whom shall a Virgin conceive?

Sacred Tradition....according to the Apostles' Creed tells us a little more..."I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.... 

How shall the Virgin Mary conceive a Divine Son? Supernaturally.

This is confirmed in St.Luke's account of the Annunciation...1:26-46

26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: 37 Because no word shall be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 39 And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda. 40 And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

So here the prophecy of Isaias has clearly found it's fulfillment in Mary.

I understand that Isaias' "shall conceive" and the Apostles' Creed, "who was conceived by the Holy Spirit.." and St.Luke's v. 31, "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb.."....to mean,

First that Almighty God has conferred upon the Virgin Mary a singular blessing for the entire human race. Here we start to understand the means by which in His Mercy and Goodness, He will accomplish His salvation plan.

Second,  Jesus Christ our only Lord and Son of God, when He assumed human flesh in the womb of the Virgin Mary was not conceived like other men, from the seed of a man, but in a supernatural manner transcending the natural manner, that is, by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that the same Person remaining God as He was from all eternity became man what He was not before.  

The Creed of the Council of Constantinople infallibly teaches, "Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven, and became incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man."

St.John 1:14 teaches the same truth of this most holy mystery when he declared the nature of the Divine Word, "I the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"..., and he concluded, "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us."   So, the Word which is a Person of a Divine Nature, assumed human nature in such a manner that there should be one and the same Person in both the Divine and human natures.

Here we see the Blessed Trinity accomplishing the mystery of the Incarnation....the Son of God was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. At the instant the Blessed Virgin Mary said, be it done unto me according to thy word...the sacred body of Christ, Perfect God and Perfect man was immediately formed in her womb.

The Blessed Virgin Mary subjected herself to supernatural majesty and grace. The Gospels are clear that Christ was conceived by power of the Holy Spirit which "overshadowed" Mary. St. Joseph recives a dream of the Divine Majesty being enacted in Mary and we know how he responded.  St.Matt. 1:20.

 

 

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

I wonder would you ever dare speak of these striking contrasts between Eve and the Blessed Mother to other Protestants?

Both were in a state of grace, but Eve lost grace while Mary preserved it and increased it by corresponding with it. St.Luke 1:28;38. Eve thooughtlessly allowed herself to be deceived by the devil without asking herself whether it were a good or evil spirit who spoke through the serpent, but Mary pondered and asked herself whether the saluation of the angel came from God or not. St.Luke 1:28-30. Eve conversed with the devil for the ruin of mankind, Mary with the angel Gabriel, for the salvation of mankind. Eve sinned with unbelief, while Mary believed in the message God sent through Gabriel and freely agreed to it. v.38. Eve sinned by pride while Mary was always most humble. Eve was disobedient while Mary gave herself over entirely to God's will. Eve consented to sin: Mary to God's will. Eve by her pride degraded herself and brought sin and death on all mankind, while Mary by her humbleness was filled with grace and through her Divine Son gave grace and life to the world.

The bible doesn't make such contrasts so why should I?

of course it does....everything stated above is Biblical.

 

 

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

   

AGAIN...listen carefully. This article was NOT about Mary. It was about EVE. Mary was NOT the mother of us all. Eve was the mother of Mary. She was the mother of us all. You keep ignoring my requests for you to show me ANYWHERE in scripture where it says Mary is the mother of us all.

Here you go again...I never said that the Blessed Mother Mary is the mother of us all. Rather I wrote:   

Eve was, in a natural sense, according to the flesh, the mother of all the living and the Blessed Mother Mary was so in a supernatural sense the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

Fact is we must understand that Eve is the mother of us in our earthly life...you know, the physical, fleshly life that eventually comes to an end...dies. By believing the serpent, Eve brought malediction and death on mankind while Mary became the instrument of Divine goodness in bringing life and benediction to the human race. From Eve we are born children of wrath...and from Mary we have received Jesus Christ and through Him are regenerated children of Grace. Mary in this sense is the Mother of Life.

You say that Eve was the mother of Mary and I say of Mary that she was the only exception as far as from Eve we are born children of wrath. That would put the Mother of God under Satan's influence and that she surely never. ever was.

Even if you don't agree, the eternal, omnipotent God prepared for Himself a worthy Mother. A Mother worthy to bear God in her womb is worth reflection (and I would think at least a mention in your article). God Himself rested in Mary's womb and subjected Himself to her. He honored her as only a Son of God could. The problem is that many not all Protestants (and some liberal Catholics too) have lost their sense of awe and wonder of how extraordinary she actually is and like radical feminists seek to minimize or forget her motherhood all together. To even think that an ordinary sinful women could be the Mother of Christ is to mock the intellect.

The Angel Gabriel addressed the Blessed Virgin in a most unique way, "Hail, full of grace",  a title given to her that had never been used before. Since the Fall, no one had been concieved in any state other than Original Sin, void of grace. But Gabriel said she was full of grace, proclaiming she was miraculously unique. And He should know as He was sent by God.

Her being full of grace was absolutely necessary for the completion of the purpose for which she had been called. God knew from eternity that He would require a human woman for a spouse so that He could enter human history. Having assumed the humble form of a helpless Child, He would need the help and assistance of a Mother who would love Him enough to obey Him without question and complete trust.

Her alliance with God is threefold. She’s the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son whose name in eternity is God and in time is Jesus. No other human being has ever or could ever have this tri-relationship with God. Within her most pure body, the incomprehensibility of the Blessed Trinity becomes intertwined with the Mystery of the Incarnation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top

Her alliance with God is threefold. She’s the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son whose name in eternity is God and in time is Jesus. No other human being has ever or could ever have this tri-relationship with God. Within her most pure body, the incomprehensibility of the Blessed Trinity becomes intertwined with the Mystery of the Incarnation.

and this is truth mixed with lies and error.  This is RCC tradition.  AGain, I keep asking you to NOT put RCC tradition here.  It's NOT biblical.  I highlighted the ONLY biblical parts of your statement.  Nothing else can be backed up with scripture.  It's tradition Lula. 

To even think that an ordinary sinful women could be the Mother of Christ is to mock the intellect.

and to think otherwise is to show one's ignorance and prideful attitude.  Your attitude is very Phariseeic.  The Pharisees couldn't understand why the people would follow such a fellow as this Christ who was not attached to any upstanding Rabbi of his day, had no riches, was dirty and probably unkempt in their eyes and hung around with the degenerates. 

But God never  usually picks the beautiful and lovely.  He says so himself in 1 Corinthians... that it's the despised and lowly and unbelieveable.  Mary and Joseph were two nobodies who went largely unnoticed in their communities.  That was what the whole buzz was about..isn't this the carpenter's son? Don't we know his mother and father?  He comes from where?  Nazarath?  That little hole in the wall?  You've got to be kidding us?  Who would follow him?  God wouldn't send such a fellow as this...kill him so we can get back to our religious ways...ya...right. 

The Angel Gabriel addressed the Blessed Virgin in a most unique way, "Hail, full of grace",

EXACTLY.  Can't YOU SEE LULA?  OPEN YOUR EYES.  Who needs Grace?  A sinner.   Only a sinner needs grace. If she were perfect (as you've been taught) why would she need grace?   God gave her grace in a big way because she was a sinner and she would carry the sinless one. 

When you're speeding down the road (a sin) and get stopped by a cop you deserve a ticket right?  If he let's you go with a warning he's giving you grace.  You deserve the ticket but got grace instead.  That's what Mary received.  Grace is unmerited favor.  She didn't deserve it but got it because God chose her for this most important job. 

I say of Mary that she was the only exception as far as from Eve we are born children of wrath. That would put the Mother of God under Satan's influence and that she surely never. ever was.

Mary WAS NOT the mother of God.  She was mother of the very human baby Jesus.  That's putting Mary in a place where she was not intended to be.  Again, taking liberty.  Only exception? Not scriptural again.  "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." 

Mary needed a Savior like the rest of us and said so herself in her Magnificant.  It's funny how you ignore bold and plain scriptures but "add" or make scriptures say what they don't say.  It NEVER says that Mary was sinless.  It never says Mary is the Mother of God.  It never says Mary is the mother of all the faithful.  But because YOU SAY so, it must be?  ARe you trumping God's word?  Pretty brazen Lula. 

of course it does....everything stated above is Biblical

no it's not.  You've taken some pretty good liberty to make your contrasts. 

You asked ....I supplied the Scripture and only some of it.

You did not supply any scripture.  You said this:

It's there. Prophesied in Isaias and fulfilled in St. Luke and St. Matthew.

that's NOT giving me anything but a mealy mouthed answer and you know it. 

Now as far as your long response #20...that DOES NOT tell me anywhere where Mary was "spoused" (your words) to the Holy Spirit.  You're still dancing. 

Nice long try thou. 

Please don't put here (how many times have I said this now?) RCC tradition.  If you do (response #20 is delete worthy) I'll have to delete you again.  I keep asking and you keep ignoring. 

Can we talk about Eve now? 

 

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

Can we talk about Eve now?

Egads! I have been talking about Eve.. my very first sentence was

As Adam was a type of Jesus Christ, Romans 5:14, Eve was a type of Our Lady.

I have been explaining how Eve was a type of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Only the lesson is one of contrasts.  You think you are a Scripture know-it-all and you have a very hard time when someone shows you that Scripture means or alludes to something other than what you deem it must mean. Nothing that I have written contradicts Scripture.

Now let's analyze my post 20 (hopefully, without you getting wimpy over my including the Apostles' and the Contantinople Creeds (Tradition). That which I quoted from both was pertinent to the fact that Mary had been conceived through the Holy Spirit and both based on Scripture (of which I provided the passages.)

Her alliance with God is threefold. She’s the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son whose name in eternity is God and in time is Jesus. No other human being has ever or could ever have this tri-relationship with God. Within her most pure body, the incomprehensibility of the Blessed Trinity becomes intertwined with the Mystery of the Incarnation.

I highlighted the ONLY biblical parts of your statement. Nothing else can be backed up with scripture. It's tradition Lula.

It's all Biblical. It's undenial that the Blessed Virgin's alliance with God was threefold....She had a relationship with the Father (which you agree) with the Son (which you agree) and also with the Holy Spirit.

Here it is:

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I said:

That the Blessed VIrgin Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit is a Divine Mystery given to us by God.

"Spouse" here is not as you think in the physical, natural, earthly sense, but in the supernatural sense.

Now I'm showing you that Scripture means this is a spousal relationship in a supernatural sense...you disagree becasue those exact words aren't found in Scripture!

Perhaps you can understand it better this way....the Church the Bride of Christ..in the supernatural sense.

We read in Apoc. 21:9  "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb" in a supernatural sense.

 

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

Mary WAS NOT the mother of God. She was mother of the very human baby Jesus. That's putting Mary in a place where she was not intended to be.

Then you yoke yourself with Arian and Nestorius becasue you are mouthing their heresy. Even Luther and Calvin stayed away from those heretics. Calvin wrote, "We cannot acknowledge the blessings brought us by Jesus without acknowledging at the same time how highly God honored and enriched Mary in choosing her to be the Mother of God." (Comm. sur L'Harm., Evang. 20).

 Jesus was never a human Person....rather He was a Divine Person who assumed our human nature in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Jesus was God in the tabernacle of her womb. She was the Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity and therefore the Mother of God.

The doctrine of the Mystery of the Incarnation is that Jesus Christ possesses a Divine and a Human Nature in One Divine Person.

How far are you willing to go in denying the BVMary her due honor?  You've told others here on JU that Jesus was God in the flesh......so that right there shows that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God.   

Jesus is God....Baby Jesus was God and that makes the Blessed Virgin Mary the Mother of God.