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The Very First Lady-Eve

The Very First Lady-Eve

A Marriage Made In Paradise

Last weekend I was asked to speak at a woman's luncheon for Mother's Day.  When I inquired as to what they wished for a subject matter they left it up to me.  So I thought about it for a day or so.  Then I came up with Eve.  Why not?  Afterall she was the mother of us all.  Since I've never heard a Mother's Day Sermon on this topic I decided I'd tackle it myself.   

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.  Even so, the message gets clouded by the cultures.  In the Eastern culture we know that women are surpressed.  In the Western culture women are aggressive and domineering more than ever.  During the days of Christ the Jews kept their women as subservient.  I heard that that it's written about the Torah that it would be better to burn it than to teach it to women! 

But what does the bible say about woman's role in society?  What is their purpose?  Jesus did much to elevate women during His time on earth and they loved Him.  It was to a woman He first announced He was the Messiah.  It was to women He first revealed Himself as risen from the dead.  He delivered at least one woman from unjust justice. 

Women were used mightily by God.  I think of Rahab who God used to save two spies facing sure death as a result if caught.  I think of Miriam who was a prophetess and ministered alongside her brother Moses.  Deborah was a judge and leader who was chosen to deliver God's people during the terrible days of the Judges.  Esther helped save her people, the Jews, from sure extermination and Lydia was a business woman who was instrumental in starting a first century church out of her home. 

So we come to Eve.  We know very little of this first lady.  We do know she was God's final creative work in the first week.  She was also a companion for Adam.  But there's more. 

Everything started out well in the garden although it didn't end that way thanks to Eve and her husband.  Eve led her husband into direct violation of God's revealed will to them.  So they were banished from Paradise.  She is a very human portraid of falling into sin but also of picking up the faith afterwards. 

She was created for a unique role in creation.  She was to minister to Adam and with Adam being his help-mate.  She was designed to complete him as well as assist him.  We read this in Genesis 1:26-28:

"And God said Let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.  And God blessed them and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 

Did you see the word "them?"  This was for both of them. A job for two.  These things were too great for them to do alone.  We see a few things about God's purposes for mankind here. 

1.  To be like Him; to reflect God's image in creation.  It took both of them to do this.  We think of God as a He and that pronoun is used but it takes both man and woman to accurately reflect God's image.  We think of God as mighty, powerful, just, logical, strong, etc. but He's also depicted in scripture as loving, tenderhearted, merciful, gracious etc.  We see both male and female characteristics in Him. 

2.  They were to rule over creation.  They were given authority over all the earth.  Together.

3.  They were to reproduce; be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.  Together.

So zooming in on Eve let's look at why she was created.  What is her purpose for being created?  Gen 2:18-22:

"And the Lord said It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper for him.  And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them and whatsoever Adam called every living creature that was the name.  And Adam gave names to all cattle and to the fowl of the air and to every beast of the field but for Adam there was not found a helper for him.  And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh.  And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman and brought her to the man." 

1.  Adam was not complete by himself.

2.  It was not good.  Even in Paradise something was not good.  Seven times, it was mentioned in the first chapter after God created, God said that "it was good" until we get here to 2:18 which says "it was not good." 

3.  Man was completed with need.  He was created incomplete.  He was made complete with Eve. 

4.  She was to be a helper suitable for him. 

Looking a bit further we can see some principles for the marriage relationship right here that brought this first couple together in Holy Matrimony. 

Genesis 2:23-24

"And Adam said this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man.  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh."

We see that God brought Eve to Adam.  It wasn't Adam's job to find a mate which makes me wonder looking around today at all the broken marriages.  How many consulted God in the choosing of their mate?   What would it have been like if they did?  God know more than we do so why don't we ask Him first?  

Unlike the animals she was like him.  She was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.  She was perfect for him.  The relationship necessitated him to leave his mother and father.  Obviously this was meant for future generations because these two were a special first couple with no parents.  This marriage required cleaving and the Hebrew word implies "to be joined by commitment."   Marriage is a commitment not a feeling or an emotion.  We need to stick it out, stay together and work things out as much as possible with us. 

Marriage results in being one together.  This one flesh points to the physical body but in principle also includes all that a person is; mind, emotions, will etc.  One cares for the other as one would care for oneself. 

And marriage results in nakedness without shame.  They had no shame.  They were naked and it was good.  This, again, goes beyond the physical.  We need to be open and up front with each other.  There should be no hiding, no secrets from each other. 

So everything started out well.  Until Eve was tempted.  Then everything changed.  She entered into a discussion with a serpent.  Is it no wonder women and snakes don't get along today?  We'll start there next time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

41,971 views 189 replies
Reply #26 Top

The Angel Gabriel addressed the Blessed Virgin in a most unique way, "Hail, full of grace",

Who needs Grace? A sinner. Only a sinner needs grace. If she were perfect (as you've been taught) why would she need grace? God gave her grace in a big way because she was a sinner and she would carry the sinless one.

Gabriel's saluation indicates that she was already full of grace...so that shows she wasn't in need of grace at all...she wasn't even in need of a little bit of grace as she was already FULL, full of grace.

sinners aren't full of grace, but the BLessed Virgin Mary already was.

Reply #27 Top

That's what Mary received. Grace is unmerited favor. She didn't deserve it but got it because God chose her for this most important job.

Agree.

So answer this ....when and how did the Blessed Virgin Mary receive this fullness of grace?

Catholics believe that she was always "full of grace" ...this was a special grace God gave her at the moment she was conceived. She was the exception to St.Paul's "all have sinned" because God chose her to be the uncorrupted tabernacle of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Mary's role ("job" as you said above) was so significant that she was predestined to be always full of grace and therefore without the stain of original sin because she was to be Jesus' Mother.  This gives witness to the dignity of Jesus and any perception of Mary, His vessel, as defiled with sin damages the dignity of Jesus.  

 

 

Reply #28 Top

sinners aren't full of grace, but the BLessed Virgin Mary already was.

Paul wrote in Romans "where sin abounds grace abounds more" meaning that there's plenty of grace to cover our sins.  That's all that matters.  Like I said before since Mary, a sinner like the rest of us, was about to carry the sinless one, she had to be cleansed (just like the priests of the OT before they entered the Holy of Holies) and God covered her with his grace.  The grace didn't come from her; it came from the Holy Spirit. 

The wording in the Greek is "charitoo" which means endowed with grace and means highly favored.  She was blessed "among" women not "above" women.  The angel spoke to Daniel in much the same way in Daniel 10:19 calling him greatly beloved. 

Catholics believe that she was always "full of grace"

Ok, I like the way you phrase that because that's what it is.  It's a belief coming from the theology of the RCC, not the bible.  We don't know really when she received this extra measure of grace.  My guess (and it's only that) would be before her conception. 

She was the exception to St.Paul's "all have sinned"

BUT you're adding to Paul's words (Word of God really) by saying so.  He didn't say "all" with the exception of Mary.  There are NO exceptions Lula.  In order for Christ's sacrifice to appease God he had to be FULLY human. Otherwise it wouldn't stand and would be like cheating.   In order to be fully human he had to come from a fully human mother.  He was fully human but yet fully divine as well.  He was 100% man AND 100% God.  He got his humanity from his mother and his deity from the Holy Spirit. 

That's why it's biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the human baby Jesus, NOT the mother of God. 

Mary's role ("job" as you said above) was so significant that she was predestined to be always full of grace and therefore without the stain of original sin because she was to be Jesus' Mother

whrere are you getting this from?  It's NOT biblical. 

 

Reply #29 Top

(Comm. sur L'Harm., Evang. 20).

I have all of Calvin's writings and I havn't a clue what this means or where to find the quote you put up.  Otherwise I'd look it up myself.   But maybe I'll check Calvin's commentary on Luke 2 anyhow. 

Then you yoke yourself with Arian and Nestorius

no that's not it at all.  They denied his deity.  I'm not denying his deity. 

you disagree becasue those exact words aren't found in Scripture!

no I disagree because the principle is NOT found in scripture.  It's a twisting of scripture to make it fit your theolgy that Mary was somewhat divine herself.  She wasn't.   The bride of Christ being the church IS biblical so I do agree with that. 

The Holy Spirit moved in and out of people's lives during the OT helping them complete tasks that were too great to do themselves.  That's what happened here with Mary.  The Holy Spirit in this case overshadowed her and placed the seed of God in her womb.  This could only happen to one person and Mary was the one chosen for this task.  But that doesn't make her divine or sinless.  It means she needed an extra measure of grace perhaps to do this but who can measure God's grace?  It's limitless. 

Mary had been conceived through the Holy Spirit and both based on Scripture (of which I provided the passages.)

Mary was NOT conceived thru the Holy Spirit.   Not biblical in the least.  Otherwise you'd show me.  Christ was the ONLY one conceived this way and to say otherwise is to teach heresy. 

Nothing that I have written contradicts Scripture.

well I keep pointing it out and you've given no satisfactory biblical answers to them.  You have to turn to tradition to answer certain questions. 

Egads! I have been talking about Eve.. my very first sentence was

obviously not because look how this whole conversation got turned around to Mary.  The only woman in the bible the Catholics care about is Mary even though that is NOT how God intended it to be.  There are many more women in the bible besides Mary and for good reason. 

If you had been talking about Eve, we would be discussing Eve now wouldn't we? 

 

 

Reply #30 Top

Mary's role ("job" as you said above) was so significant that she was predestined to be always full of grace and therefore without the stain of original sin because she was to be Jesus' Mother

whrere are you getting this from? It's NOT biblical.

Yes, it is Biblical.

We know from Genesis that God promised Adam and Eve a Redeemer so we know from back as far as then, we know the Blessed Virgin Mary was in the mind of God. (but it goes back even further).

As He created the world He was thinking of her. The Mother of Jesus is Wisdom Personified in the Book of Proverbs 8:30-31,

"I was with Him forming all things; and was delighted every day, playing before Him at all times. Playing in the world and my delights were to be with the children of men."

Genesis 1:1-2 the act of Creation, "In the beginning God created heaven and earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters."

"the Lord possesses me in the beginnning of His ways, before He made anything from the begining. I was set up from eternity and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out, ....He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers nor the poles of the world. When He prepared the heavens I was present....Proverbs 8: 22-24; 26-27.

When the Spirit of God moved over the waters, He was contemplating the day when she would fulfill her destiny.

God sent forth His Son to be born of a woman Gal 4:4 but to prepare her body as the Vessel of Jesus, He wanted her free assent and cooperation. St.Luke 1:28-38, For this from all eternity, God chose the Virgin Mary as the Mother of His only begotten Son.

We see her role as the Bearer of God is foreshadowed in the construction of the Ark of the Covenant. Ex. 25:10-11. The box would become the vessel upon which the Shekinah would descend. This wood used in the Ark was seen as a prefigurement of Mary's body preserved from the corruption of sin.

I could link the protable tents which housed the Ark as well as Solomon's Temple which was the house of God as prefigurments of Mary's womb for 9 months as the house of God.     

Reply #31 Top

Mary had been conceived through the Holy Spirit and both based on Scripture (of which I provided the passages.)

Mary was NOT conceived thru the Holy Spirit. Not biblical in the least. Otherwise you'd show me. Christ was the ONLY one conceived this way and to say otherwise is to teach heresy.

oops my mistake.....Typing too fast I guess.....Christ was conceived through the Holy Spirit.

..........................

KFC posts:

Mary WAS NOT the mother of God. She was mother of the very human baby Jesus. That's putting Mary in a place where she was not intended to be.

Mary was indeed the Mother of God and from all eternity was intended to be the Mother of God, so it's hardly putting her in a place where she was not intended to be when calling her by that title. God intended it as such, so you'll have to take it up with Him.

Then you yoke yourself with Arian and Nestorius

no that's not it at all. They denied his deity. I'm not denying his deity.

 

The Arianism heresy in 336 denied that Jesus is God and it's quite clear that you do the same here.  

In 431, Nestorianism taught exactly what you wrote above. They taught that the BLessed Virgin Mary is not the Mother of God but only of the human man, Christ.

Both these heresies have been condemned by the Church and that's how I know for sure they aren't true.

 

Reply #32 Top

you disagree becasue those exact words aren't found in Scripture!

no I disagree because the principle is NOT found in scripture.

Your comment is interesting and good to know.  Of the Blessed Virgin Mary as to her spousal relationship as per "conceived through the Holy Spirit", of her being always "full of grace" and as being the Mother of God, not only are these Scriptural but the principal behind the doctrine is found there as well. You just object becasue it's the CC that developed the doctrine and for that reason alone you bristle and discard the teaching.    

 

Reply #33 Top

It's a twisting of scripture to make it fit your theolgy that Mary was somewhat divine herself. She wasn't.

Another false accusation.

This is just grasping at straws on your part.  

I have no such theology and no where can you point that I claim such an erroneous thing as Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine. 

And furthermore, there is no Catholic theology that Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine.

 

 

 

Reply #34 Top

And furthermore, there is no Catholic theology that Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine.

of course there is and I've got the chapter and verse from the Vatican to prove so.   You can go to the Vatican's website and it says so right there.  I have this: 

Octobri Mense

Encylical of Pope Leo XIII

On The Rosary

Item 4

(5) with equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.  (6) Thus as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no man goes to Christ but by His Mother"

Item 13

"saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through MaryThrough her may all the faithful strive to obtain from her Divine Son.."

Sep 22, 1891

Now compare this to what the bible ACTUALLY says:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."  1 Timothy 2:5

"And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you shall ask anything in my name, I will do it."  John 14:13-14

"After this manner therefore pray "our Father which art in heaven, hallowed by your name...."  Matthew 6:9

 

 Besides all that I have a friend who grew up Catholic (and has since left the RCC) but her old RCC bible in the back under Mary's name says "co-redeemer." 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #35 Top

That's why it's biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the human baby Jesus, NOT the mother of God.

Still persisting with this denial.

Moses foretold that the Messias (the Christ) would come from the seed of "the woman" Gen 3:15. And Isaias 7:14 said he would be 'the Emmanuel, God with us." "God the Mighty 9:6, and so therefore "the woman" would be the Mother of God.

You won't call the Blessed Virgin the Mother of God, but Saint Elizabeth did....Go back to St. Luke 1:35, 43..."....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....

and then the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost  and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?"

 

 

 

 

Reply #36 Top

St.Luke 1:28, Gabriel greeted Mary by saying "Hail Full of grace, the Lord is with thee".

Catholics believe that she was always "full of grace" ...this was a special grace God gave her at the moment she was conceived.

 

kfc posts:

The wording in the Greek is "charitoo" which means endowed with grace and means highly favored. She was blessed "among" women not "above" women. The angel spoke to Daniel in much the same way in Daniel 10:19 calling him greatly beloved.

In Greek, "full of grace" would be pleres charitos which is used for St. Stephen in Acts 6:8.  However, the "full of grace" used by St.Luke to describe the Blessed Virgin Mary is "kecharitomene". You can see the "charito" in it, but it has a different meaning. "Kecharitomene" means much more both theologically and philologically. "Kecharitomene" means a transformation of the subject; a perfection of the subject, not just to look upon or be regarded with favor.

The newer translations have verse 28 as "Rejoice oh highly favored daughter" or something close to that.  "Charitos" here gives the impression that the favor bestowed on Mary was indistinguishable from other women like you have mentioned who were also favored by God.

Anyway, kecharitomene indicates a perfection of grace, not only intensively but extensively and this is a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God. 

 

Reply #37 Top

sooooo no answer to post #34?  Are you skipping it?  No rebuttal? 

v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?"

very good come back Lula.  Really.  But the "Lord" that you speak of is not all in caps.  Let me explain.

There are many names for God.  There is Elohim, Adonai, El Roi, El Elyon, YHWH, etc and many compound names as well.

To help us know which is in view the translators built into their translation a hint.  I know the KJV does this but I checked your DR and it doesn't do it so you can't see any distinction.  For example in the Shema (Deut 6:4) my translation says:

"Hear O Israel, The LORD, (Jehovah) our God (Elohim) is one LORD (Jehovah)." 

Moses was telling the people their God was Jehovah.  A specific God while other Elohims were pagan gods (Elohim) 

When you see in some translations:

GOD (all caps) it is YHWH or what we say is Jehovah

LORD (all caps) is another way to say Jehovah

God (lowercase) is Elohim and is a generic form of God.  You can have pagan gods and it's Elohim as well.  What's interesting is that when it says Elohim concerning pagan gods it's always plural but when it says Elohim concerning the true God its translated singular.  Like "In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth."

Lord (lowercase as you quoted with Elizabeth) is Adonai and means master, owner and the word in Greek is "kurios."  The word Lord is used many times in the NT.  Many called Jesus Lord but they were not calling him GOD or God. 

Now Elizabeth as well as Mary had no idea that Jesus was God.  They were not told that only that he would be the one they had been waiting for.  Remember the Jews had waited for the one like Moses who would come to set them free.  Nobody got the fact that he was God until after the resurrection.  Remember Thomas saying "my Lord and my God?"  He finally got it.  Mary pondered things in her heart it said.  She didn't quite understand exactly the full meaning of who her child really was until the crucifixtion.  

Even in the first few centuries and even today many question the deity of Christ.  Was he really God?  Was he a teacher?  Even Peter stood up and said "you are the Christ the son of the Living God."   Peter didn't call him God there either. 

Despite the teaching of the RCC nowhere in the NT does Mary receive the title "mother of God."  God is eternal.  Mary was not.  God was never conceived or born but has always existed.  Mary was the mother of the human Jesus, not his eternal divine nature. 

Mary is not the mother of God or the queen of heaven.  She plays no role in the redemption of mankind nor does she intercede for them or hear their prayers.

She is an example to all believers of how to respond obediently, worshipfully and joyfully to the word of God.  That's where her true greatness lies. 

Like Noah Mary had "found favor in the eyes of the Lord" (Gen 6:8).  God had sovereignly chosen to use her to help carry out his purpose.  It was not her merit or worthiness but Gpod's grace which like all His ways is quite beyond our human understanding. 

One of the RCC's largest errors is the turning of this self-proclaimed humble slave of God into the exalted queen of heaven.  Such worship of Mary which would have appalled and horrified her, is nothing less than idolatry. 

Catholicism's elevation of Mary finds no support in Scripture and the concept of the queen of heaven in the OT is in connection with ancient pagan religion. 

To worship Mary as the queen of heaven is to mix paganism with truth and to blaspheme the true King of heaven. 

Another thought.  God is not only one person of the trinity. So to say that Mary is the mother of God makes no sense.  Jesus is God, yes, but to say that God is Jesus is incorrect.  God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Mary gave birth to the second person of the trinity who took on flesh.  Mary could not be the mother of God because she is not eternal.  She was not before Jesus.   He always is and was. 

 

 

 

Reply #38 Top

However, the "full of grace" used by St.Luke to describe the Blessed Virgin Mary is "kecharitomene". 

The newer translations have verse 28 as "Rejoice oh highly favored daughter" or something close to that. "Charitos" here gives the impression that the favor bestowed on Mary was indistinguishable from other women like you have mentioned who were also favored by God.

"thou that art highly favored" is indeed one word in the Greek and is "kecharitomene" which is the perfect passive participle of the verb "charitoo" (also in Eph 1:6) where it's translated "make us accepted." 

The base of this verb is the noun "charis" which is translated grace.  It also means favor. 

so "favored one" or "you who are higly favored" will fit. 

Remember Grace is unmerited favor.  It's used here for Mary but also for all believers Eph 1:6 (the only other occurrence of the verb in the NT). 

She is highly favored because she is the recipient of God's grace. 

Some say (like you) that Luke implies that a cetain grace has been found in Mary's character.  Maybe so but the parallel in Eph 1:6 shows that the grace in view here is that which is given all believers apart from any merit of their own.  Because of this she then says "My spirit rejoices in God my Savior." 

 

 

 

Reply #39 Top

 lula posts:

Eve was, in a natural sense, according to the flesh, the mother of all the living and the Blessed Mother Mary was so in a supernatural sense the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

kfc posts:

you can back this up with scripture?

 14

Where does it say that Mary is the mother of all the spiritual?

I showed you exactly where it says Eve was the mother of all living (Gen 3:20). So far you haven't proven your end of things.

As you read this, keep in mind the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Eve is the mother of all the living in a physical, natural sense, according to flesh and blood. Eve disobeyed God's will and brought death to mankind. But God in His Mercy and Goodness promised a Redeemer. Through her full belief, faith and cooperation with God's will, Mary brought Life into the world that through His merits we might have new life of grace.

Spiritual motherhood is as real and profound as is the motherhood by nature. The Blessed Virgin's spiritual motherhood is rooted in the New Covenant  of Grace.  

To be a mother pertains directly to life. As Eve was the mother of the living, so Mary was the Mother of the Redeemed. Those who have life in Christ through their baptism also have His mother as their own. Jesus is conceived by the Holy SPirit in the Virgin Mary's womb and from His conception, Christ's humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit without measure. It's from His fullness that we have received grace upon grace. St.John 3:34; 1:16; Col. 1:18.

St.Like 1: 28 tells us that the Virgin Mary is "full of grace." Then Gabriel says to her, "the Lord is with you." At this moment of the Annunciation, the Lord God the Father is with her moreso than with any other human person....He's taking shape within her,  fills her soul, and in her womb.  

By His virginal conception Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the the new life of all God's children adopted in the Holy Spirit through Divine Faith. V. 34, She asks "How can this be?" She's told how and although she doesn't fully understand, by her faith she gave her fiat, "....Let it be done unto me according to thy word."

The Virgin Mary cooperated through faith and obedience in God's salvation plan. St.Thomas Aquinas, a Father of the Church,  wrote that she uttered her "yes" in the name of all human nature and in contrast to Eve who disobeyed God, by Mary's faith and obedience, she became the new Eve, the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

The Church teaches that Jesus gave His Mother to us...St.John 19:27.


 


 

Reply #40 Top

lula posts:

And furthermore, there is no Catholic theology that Mary was Divine or somewhat Divine.

of course there is and I've got the chapter and verse from the Vatican to prove so. You can go to the Vatican's website and it says so right there. I have this:

Octobri Mense

Encylical of Pope Leo XIII

On The Rosary

Item 4

(5) with equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. (6) Thus as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no man goes to Christ but by His Mother"

Item 13

"saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary. Through her may all the faithful strive to obtain from her Divine Son.."

Sep 22, 1891

Now compare this to what the bible ACTUALLY says:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5

"And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14

"After this manner therefore pray "our Father which art in heaven, hallowed by your name...." Matthew 6:9

Besides all that I have a friend who grew up Catholic (and has since left the RCC) but her old RCC bible in the back under Mary's name says "co-redeemer."

sooooo no answer to post #34? Are you skipping it? No rebuttal?

 Pope Leo XIII's Encyclical on the Holy Rosary doesn't/ isn't teaching that the Blessed Virgin Mary is Divine or somewhat Divine. Period. At the end of the prayer, we ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to "pray of us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

You offer 1Tim. 2:5 and St.John 14: 13-14 as your proof texts that it is not legitimate from a Biblical POV to hold the Mother of Christ to be a mediatior....that it denies the teaching of 1Timothy 2:5. But you are entirely disregarding the preceeding 4 verses, 2:1-4, where St.Paul instructs Christians to pray for one another, meaning it can't interfere with Christ's Mediatiorship.

"I urge that prayers, supplicatons, petitions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone....This is good and pleasing to God our Savior."  We know from reading the Apocalypse 5:8 this exhortation to pray for others applies to Saints in Heaven who intercede for us by offering our prayers to God.

What Pope Leo wrote is in complete agreement with Scripture. We are all mediatiors in some respect between God and our fellow man when we pray on their behalf. This doesn't argue against CHrist being the sole Mediatior becasue our efforts are entirely dependent upon HIM. In a far more perfect way than any one else, since the Blessed Virgin Mary is full of grace she shares His mediation only in a secondary sense.

Her status as intermediary of all graces exists in a double sense. First, she gave the world its Redeemer, the Source of all graces,and in this sense she is the channel of all graces. She freely cooperated with God's plan St.Luke 1:38 at that moment of the Annunciation. Second, as our spiritual Mother, she interecedes for us in Heaven. Christ remains the ONe Mediatior and His role is not lessoned one iota becasue she is allowed to assist Him.

Why should I go to Mary for heavenly favors when I can go directly to God? Becasue she is more pure than I am and has a more personal realtionship than I do. And this is Biblical too. "The prayer of the just availeth much" says St.James 5:16. Surelly the Saints in Heaven are foremost among the just having conformed to the will of God.   

If St.Paul who wrote in Timothy thought it fitting to cry out to his fellow brethren to "help me in your prayers to God for me" why can't you or I call upon the most Blessed of Saints, the Virgin Mary for "prayers to God"?

 

 

Reply #41 Top

To be a mother pertains directly to life. As Eve was the mother of the living, so Mary was the Mother of the Redeemed.

You keep saying this.  I say no.  You have no backing outside your RCC.  That puts her on equal footing with God and she was a created being.  You are worshiping the created not the creator when you say such things.  I see in scripture where it says that Eve is the mother of all living and I also see where it says Jerusalem is the mother of us all but I see nothing that says Mary is.  Nothing.  Not even a hint.  I'm sure that's for a reason. 

All that you've shown me is what I've been saying and that is that she was a great example of faith, love, and obedience for the God she worshipped.  She was a humble servant and is being made to be something (by the RCC) she isn't and it takes away from her when it's done. 

the Father is with her moreso than with any other human person....He's taking shape within her, fills her soul, and in her womb.

no, it was the Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity.  Not the father, who is the first person of the Trinity.  We see many instances when the holy spirit fills believers both in the OT and the NT.  The diff here is she would bring in the Messiah thru her filling of the Holy Spirit.  The rest of us are to bring forth other gifts that God has endowed us with.  Her gift was to be the mother of the Messiah.  No one else had that job.  Only she alone.  But that doesn't make her holier than any other created human.  She just had a diff role. 

The Virgin Mary cooperated through faith and obedience in God's salvation plan. St.Thomas Aquinas, a Father of the Church, wrote that she uttered her "yes" in the name of all human nature and in contrast to Eve who disobeyed God, by Mary's faith and obedience, she became the new Eve, the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

so other's cooperated as well.  Read about Paul when Jesus approached him on the road to Damascus he said "what will you have me to do?"  Abraham, immediately got up and did what he was told to do in Ur.  So?  All this shows is they were obedient to God's word and followed him.  When Jesus said "come follow me" they left their nets and followed him.  So?  You're adding to God's word here saying that Mary's obedience made her the mother of us all.  It's not there Lula.  It's part of your Maryology you've been taught.  Mary knew the scriptures that a promised one would come.  When she heard the words she knew it was true because it was expected.  Eve didn't have the information that Mary had.  You can't make this contrast because they are two diff situations. 

The Church teaches that Jesus gave His Mother to us...St.John 19:27.

I'm glad you said the church teaches this because the bible doesn't. 

If St.Paul who wrote in Timothy thought it fitting to cry out to his fellow brethren to "help me in your prayers to God for me" why can't you or I call upon the most Blessed of Saints, the Virgin Mary for "prayers to God"?

because it's clear in scripture we aren't supposed to pray to the dead.  We've been over this many tmes before Lula showing me you just don't really want the truth.   So I'm not going to regurgitate it.  It's perfectly fine for us to pray for one another and we've been shown to do this and commanded to do this.  But we are NOT to pray to people who have died to intercede for us especially since we have Jesus as our intercessor.  Why would we need to?  Paul never said for us to pray to him when he passed on either. 

As far as the prayers of the just.  If we are true genuine Christians then we are justified.  We are justified in Him.  He justifies us thru his grace. 

You haven't shown me anywhere where we are encouraged to pray to Mary or any dead person.  You won't either because it's not there.   You may want to go back and read about Saul going to the dead for help.  It was his undoing.  It's not a good example to follow.

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #42 Top

To be a mother pertains directly to life. As Eve was the mother of the living, so Mary was the Mother of the Redeemed.

You keep saying this. I say no. You have no backing outside your RCC. That puts her on equal footing with God and she was a created being. You are worshiping the created not the creator when you say such things.

This is your third false accusation, but it's evident you want to judge me as such.

........................

lula posts:

St.Like 1: 28 tells us that the Virgin Mary is "full of grace." Then Gabriel says to her, "the Lord is with you." At this moment of the Annunciation, the Lord God the Father is with her moreso than with any other human person....He's taking shape within her, fills her soul, and in her womb.

no, it was the Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity. Not the father, who is the first person of the Trinity. We see many instances when the holy spirit fills believers both in the OT and the NT. The diff here is she would bring in the Messiah thru her filling of the Holy Spirit.

KFC,

Ah, good to see that you recognize the Blessed Trinity in the Annunciation and the Incarnation and  the Blessed Virgin Mary. She does have indeed a tri-relationship with the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and here it is. God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit all present with her at the Annunciation and the Incarnation.

But that doesn't make her holier than any other created human.

See where you wrote: The diff here is she would bring in the Messiah thru her filling of the Holy Spirit.

Well, what does being filled with the Holy Spirit mean? In post 39 the first thing I cautioned was to keep in mind the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That means something big here since Mary soul was filled with the Holy Spirit...filled with sanctifying grace. Her soul was filled with grace means there was no where sin could be. This filling of the HS means that she and she alone was in a state of sanctifying grace and therefore holier than the rest of humankind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #43 Top

because it's clear in scripture we aren't supposed to pray to the dead. We've been over this many tmes before Lula showing me you just don't really want the truth.

Correct...I agree 100% we aren't to pray to the dead and Catholics do not do so when they pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary and ask her to intercede to God for us.

What's the truth? Are the Saints in Heaven dead? I'd say no...they are more alive than you and I.

You haven't shown me anywhere where we are encouraged to pray to Mary or any dead person. You won't either because it's not there.

It is there and I've already given you the Scripture.

lula wrote

We know from reading the Apocalypse 5:8 this exhortation to pray for others applies to Saints in Heaven who intercede for us by offering our prayers to God.

 

KFC posts: 

It's perfectly fine for us to pray for one another and we've been shown to do this and commanded to do this. But we are NOT to pray to people who have died to intercede for us especially since we have Jesus as our intercessor.

Do you want to debate what Apoc. 5:8 means?

 

 

Reply #44 Top

Do you want to debate what Apoc. 5:8 means?

why?   Are you all studied up on that from your RCC's commentaries? 

I agree 100% we aren't to pray to the dead and Catholics do not do so when they pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary and ask her to intercede to God for us.

she's dead physically Lula.  Her cares are not for this world anymore.  I'm sure she's quite busy in heaven worshipping the Father.  The earth is so far away to her now.  It's like a distant memory now.  Show me in scripture where it says Mary is to intercede for us.  I showed you where Christ was our ONLY mediator.  So how can there be another? 

What's the truth? Are the Saints in Heaven dead? I'd say no...they are more alive than you and I.

yes and no.  They are physically dead but are alive with God in spirit.  But that still doesn't give us any green light to pray to them.  Jesus was asked "teach us to pray" and he did.  What is so hard here Lula?  "Our Father which art in heaven...."  We are to petition the Father.  He's our father and as Jesus said he cares for us and listens to our prayers. 

It is there and I've already given you the Scripture.

no you haven't because there is no such thing. 

 

Reply #45 Top

What's the truth? Are the Saints in Heaven dead? I'd say no...they are more alive than you and I.

kfc posts:

yes and no. They are physically dead but are alive with God in spirit.

OK, this is a good start...keeping in mind that God is not God of the dead but of the living..St.Mark 12...

now it's time to read Hebrews 12:1 and Apoc. 5:8 to see just how alive and active the Saints in Heaven really are.

This "great cloud of witnesses" are helping us as we run with perseverance the race. Apoc. 5:8 tells us how.

t is there and I've already given you the Scripture.

KFC

no you haven't because there is no such thing.

Yes, KFC...it's there. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #46 Top

Now Elizabeth as well as Mary had no idea that Jesus was God. [/quote]

Both of them believed the Child in Mary's womb was the Lord God.

First, keep in mind the background of the Blessed Virgin and St. Elizabeth...they were faithful Jewish women well versed in OT Scriptures especially the prophets who foretold many things about the Redeemer who would come. Isaias prophecied the Messias Christ would be the Emmanuel, God with us....God the Mighty.

Also very important to keep in mind the gifts of the Holy Spirit....one who is filled with the Holy Spirit would get a super abundant gift…in this case.... knowledge to enable them to discover the will of God in all things.

Here's how we know they knew...so many clues just in St.Luke 1:26-38 which is the Mystery of the Annunciation to Mary and the Incarnation.

In post 37, you try to convince me that St.Luke's use of the word "Lord"  isn't meant as God but it most definitely does.

As to St. Elizabeth, who conceived St.John the Baptist in her old age,  let's go back to St.Luke 1:24-25, "After these days, his wife Elizabeth conceived, and for five months she hid herself, saying, Thus the Lord has done to me in the days when He looked on me..."  Here, St.Elizabeth said "the Lord" and she understood and meant "the Lord" as God.

Now go to St.Luke. 1:28, Gabriel said to the Virgin Mary, "...Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Once again we see Gabriel meant "the Lord" as God.

The Virgin Mary was troubled by this saluation and asked how this could be...Gabriel told her, "Fear not, thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call His name Jesus."

Here is the next big clue...the name Jesus, what does it mean? What did the name mean to Mary? Our Lord's name Jesus in Hebrew is Joshua or Jeshua which means "Jehovah is salvation."   Also, Jesus is the Messias that is the "Anointed One" the personage foretold in recorded Jewish Scriptures to come and redeem mankind...these are the same Scriptures that both Jewish women were well familliar with. 

When our Lord consented to accept "the Christ" or simply "Christ" as His official designation, He claimed to be the prophesied Messias. Dan. 9:25-26; St.Matt. 16:17, 20, ; 26: 63-64; St.Luke 9:20-21; etc.

 

You won't call the Blessed Virgin the Mother of God, but Saint Elizabeth did....Read St. Luke 1:35 and 43...Gabriel told the Blessed VIrgin,  "....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....". (Who is the HOLY if not God?)

and then the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?"

St. Elizabeth knew without doubt that Mary was carrying the Lord God in her womb.And what happened as a result? the next verse 44, "For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe (St.John the Baptist) in my womb leaped for joy."

Verse 44 is even more proof...although St.John the Baptist was conceived in Original Sin, he was born sinless becasue he was sanctified in his mother's womb by the presence of Jesus Christ in the womb of Mary. On receiving this special grace of God, St.John rejoices by leaping with joy in his mother's womb thereby fulfilling the Archangel's prophecy 1:15.

 The Blessed Mother knew her Son was the King of kings, the Lord of lords as she was there when the Three Wise Men came and "fell down and worshipped" the Baby in the manger. St.Matt. 2:10-11.

 

Reply #47 Top

I don't know why my last post came out the way it did.

The very first sentence is your quote and the rest is my rebuttal.

Reply #48 Top

She didn't quite understand exactly the full meaning of who her child really was until the crucifixtion.

She knew that her Child was God and that's evident by being there when the Three wise Men adored Him.

Now Elizabeth as well as Mary had no idea that Jesus was God. They were not told that only that he would be the one they had been waiting for. Remember the Jews had waited for the one like Moses who would come to set them free. Nobody got the fact that he was God until after the resurrection.

It was before Christ's Resurrection. How many times did Jesus perform miracles that only God could do...the first one at His mother's intercession at the wedding at Cana when He changed the water into wine? She knew He was God..what she didn't know was exactly when His time had come to go public with the fact.  And how many times did He tell the Jews and the disciples that He was the I AM or that He was one with the Father? He Himself said He was God many times over before He died, KFC. His faithful followers believed He was who He claimed to be but they didn't fully understand until the First Penetcost day when the Holy Spirit descended upon them and taught them all things...then it was crystal clear and they were able to preach Christ to all nations after that.

Even in the first few centuries and even today many question the deity of Christ.

Ya, the first heretics.

Was he really God? Was he a teacher? Even Peter stood up and said "you are the Christ the son of the Living God." Peter didn't call him God there either.

Agree there were a variety of opinions that were held during Jesus' time as to who He really was. Because He had no crown, princely throne, treasures or army as have kings, the majority of Jews could not see in Him a King, the Anointed One, whom they wanted to free them from the yoke of Caesar. 

Was he really God? .... Even Peter stood up and said "you are the Christ the son of the Living God." Peter didn't call him God there either.

Here you go again..because the Bible doesn't have those exact words you miss the forest for the trees. Actually, it's worse than that...you miss the true theological meaning behind the context of the passages.

 

In St.Matt. 16:15 Our Lord put St. Peter to the test. "Whom do you say I am?" St.Peter answered, "Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God." And there is no way St.Peter could have known that at this point but the next verse 17 tells us that this knowedge of who Jesus was came to St.Peter diirectly from God, through a special revelation, for as Jesus said, "flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but My Father who is in Heaven."

From this we must understand that St.Peter knew Christ to be the Son of God in a unique sense; the expression was used by St.Peter in the sense of equality with God the Father having all the power there is in Heaven and on earth. 28:18. 

Turns out it was God Himself who through special revelation told St.Peter who Christ was. God called Jesus God and told St. Peter that. And from this we know Christ rewarded St. Peter by giving him the keys to His kingdom, that is, He made him the earthly leader and authority in the Church Christ promised to establish.

Then comes v. 20 and Jesus commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ. He didn't want that publicized since the Jews connected the Messias with a political and secular conqueror, but Jesus did not come for either of those goals. St.John 18:36.

 

Reply #49 Top

St. Elizabeth knew without doubt that Mary was carrying the Lord God in her womb.And what happened as a result? the next verse 44, "For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe (St.John the Baptist) in my womb leaped for joy."

Verse 44 is even more proof

Without a doubt?  more proof?  This isn't proof forget about anything else.   Let me show you plenty of proof they didn't know he was God....

Nobody knew he was the Messiah.  Even Mary.  Same with the Apostles.  That's why Christ asked them "who do you say that I am" well into his ministry with them.  He wouldn't have asked the question had they known. 

His mother pondered things in her heart we read a few times but she didn't know.  It never said she did.  In fact at least once she and his brothers tried to stop him thinking he might get killed.  They may even have thought he was losing it. 

Remember Peter tried to stop Jesus from going to the cross and Jesus said "get behind me Satan."   He also cut the ear off a soldier when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus.  If Peter knew this was God would he have done these things? 

All the Jews knew was that a Messiah would come someday.    Even Leauki would tell you this.  They weren't expecting God in the flesh.  They were expecting another prophet like Moses.  That's why John wrote what he did when he was much older.  God in the flesh. 

Remember in John 1:21 the Priests and the Scribes asked this of John the Baptist:

"Are you Elijah?  And he said I am not.  Are you THAT prophet (Deut 18:15)?  And he answered No.  Then said they to him, Who are you?  That we may give an answer to them that sent us.  What do you say of yourself?" 

They were expecting a Prophet.  Not God.  Then when Christ met the woman at the well in John 4 she said this:

"I know that when the Messiah comes which is called Christ when he is come he will tell us all things.  Jesus said to her, I that speak to you am he." 

She dropped her pot and ran.  Did you know that she is the first one to whom Christ revealed he was the Messiah?  He didn't tell her he was God.  He only said He was  the Messiah they had been waiting for. 

Also Peter wouldn't have denied him had he known He was God himself.  After the cock crew it said in Luke that he remembered the word of the Lord and wept bitterly.  Somewhere it said (maybe more than once) that the disciples remembered things like he would raise after three days.  It's pretty clear they didn't put the whole thing together until AFTER the resurrection because no one can raise from the dead but God. 

Even at his death a centurion said "surely this was a righteous man."  He didn't say God. He said man.  Do you think the Pharisees and other Jews would have put Christ to death if they thought he was God?  Nobody knew.  That was part of the plan.

After the death it said in Luke 24:

v11:  And they remembered his words and returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven (apostles) and to all the rest (Jesus's family and other friends).  It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and other women that were with them which told these things to the Apostles.  And their words seemed to them as idle tales and they believed them not."

If they knew He was God they would have believed them.  Peter then ran ahead and it said when he looked in the tomb he was wondering about all this.  Then right after that two of them met Jesus on the road not recognizing him.  He then began to open the scriptures starting with Moses and the prophets all things concerning himself.  Then in 24:45 it says this:

"Then opened he their understanding that they might understand the scriptures."  Then right after that in v52 we see "they worshipped Him."  AT THE VERY END OF LUKE AFTER THE RESURRECTION!!!

That's when they got it.  We do not see any worship until then and when Thomas found out.  That's what we are to do with God in our presence.  Worship HIM.

So your saying that the baby in Elizabeth's womb jumped, therefore she knew Jesus was God is bad theology.  It's only in your mind not in the scriptures.   More than a baby jumped here.  You are jumping to conclusions because you are tryng to marry tradition with scripture and it doesn't work. 

 

 

 

 

Reply #50 Top



Nobody knew he was the Messiah. Even Mary. Same with the Apostles.

KFC,

In post 46 I cited the Scriptural passages which soundly refute your claim. Those passages are the ones you must address starting with Isaias and then St.Luke and St.Matt.  

They were all faithful Jews who were familiar with Isaias who prophecied the Messias to come is God.

In Isaias, God made known in terms clearer than ever before that Christ is God Himself. "....God Himself will come and will save you." 35:4.  Isaias said "His name shall be called Emmanuel", which means God with us. 7:14.  In 9:6, "...God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."    

After giving the full context of what "the Lord" means in St. Luke, I ask 3 questions:

You won't call the Blessed Virgin the Mother of God, but Saint Elizabeth did. St. Luke 1:35 and 43...Gabriel told the Blessed VIrgin,  "....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....". (Who is the HOLY if not God?)

and then the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?" (Elizabeth is filled with the HS. Is it not the gift of the Holy Spirit that moves Elizabeth to...know that Mary was carrying Jesus and..to call Mary "the Mother of my Lord" thereby showing that Mary is the Mother of God? )

And lastly, 

 The Blessed Mother knew her Son was the King of kings, the Lord of lords as she was there when the Three Wise Men came and "fell down and worshipped" the Baby in the manger. St.Matt. 2:10-11.

 

 

 What you are missing is that the BLessed Virign Mary and the Apostles all believed...they were the very first Christians who believed the Messias Christ is God. They believed by faith and would not have full understanding until Pentecost when the Holy SPirit descended upon them and other disciples and gave them the knowledge of all Christ's truths.

And yes, in the case of a few, St.Peter and Thomas, their faith wavered from time to time, but in the end they persevered in the Faith. And that should be the lesson to us as well.