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The currency of Elemental

The currency of Elemental

It’s time to name the currency in Elemental.

The Random House team has come up with rigma which we like a lot.

An alternative would be gildars.

But if someone has a really cool name we’ll consider it.

343,057 views 232 replies
Reply #176 Top

Quoting Shurdus, reply 173
This thread now has me doubting the merits of naming things like the currency for the sake of a realistic touch. It is almost like giving things fancy names for the sake of fancy names rather than serving a purpose. What would be against calling it gold, really? No one calls it's coins that except in games? What is this then?

You mean other then all the already listed reasons?

Also, lots of games don't call their currency gold. Gil and Rupees were used by two pretty well known franchises, and the playerbase managed get along just fine. Games in a Sci-fi setting use credits typically, but it's really the same thing with a different name. Really, it can be called anything as long as there's only one type of currency.

The book on the other hand doesn't have that luxury. As has been stated, "Gold" is not a currency. It's a precious metal. No currency is ever called "gold", not even when it's based on a gold standard or really is coins with gold in them.

Reply #177 Top

And I certainly don't want to have to play my old D&D campaign with Rigor Mortis used as currency name, or Gildars or Rabbits either.

Warhammer uses very simple Crowns (Gold), Shillings (Silver) and Pennies (Copper).

I always felt it gave a more.. realistic, immersive element than FR where I used "gold" to buy thing. "The ear tax is 2 shilling per pointed ears" has a more fun ring to it.

Regarding the Mark: did you knew it actually was the german currency before the Euro?

Reply #179 Top

Honestly, you could name it whatever you wanted then give people an option to customize the name.  In the end nobody will really know the difference and we might change the name a few times until we realize it doesn't matter :)  Considering it's a game all about customization though, it does make the most sense to give the user the choice... unless!  Unless the coinage/bits/monetary system is thoroughly tied into the storyline.  For instance, atium in the world of Mistborn (Brandon Sanderson) is very tied into how the world works, so if it's something akin to that, it wouldn't make sense for us to customize it.

I sort of like short, succinct names, like Rigmas(or is Rigma one of those plural/singular words?), Talents, Ducats, Bits, Draubs, Jibs, Jots, and the such.

Reply #180 Top

As has been stated, "Gold" is not a currency. It's a precious metal. No currency is ever called "gold", not even when it's based on a gold standard or really is coins with gold in them.

Eh, no country/region on Earth might have called it just "gold" until now. But you might have noticed that this is a PC game, and a fantasy one to that. And in these games it's the standard, if not "state of the art", to call it gold or gold coins or something similar.

Actually, it would be very natural to call your currency gold in a world like Elemental post-Cataclysm - the link to the metal is clearly in the name, and that's also the link to the value of the coin. In a world where political entities are only now starting to (re)form it would make sense to go back to basics like gold. To say that "gold is a metal and can't be used as name for a currency" does not make any sense, excuse me.  

Take a current real world Empire-building and its currency as example: the Euro (rather Kingdom-building actually! :thumbsup: ) "Euro" links to "European" and was chosen as currency name since it symbolizes and links to the political and geographic entities behind this new currency. But in Elemental the world is supposed to be dead and you have to start your Empire/Kingdom building from scratch. There is no economy to speak of. You still have to meet your neighbours. How all of these Empires/Kingdoms still to be formed would have agreed on a single currency name is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is to drag something up from their history (that we know almost nothing of) and it would be a pity since it's all about starting anew with your own, player-tailored civ.    

Reply #181 Top

Warhammer uses very simple Crowns (Gold), Shillings (Silver) and Pennies (Copper).

Unfortunately, these already exist in the real world today and would completely ruin the fantasy mood. Crowns are used in the Nordic countries, Shillings still in e.g. Kenya and Pennies are of course around in UK/US.   

Reply #182 Top

Quoting L0s7man, reply 105
What's wrong with gold? Don't you know the good old dwarf song:

 

Gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold

Gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold

Gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold

You forgot a gold, inbwtween gold and gold I think.

Sammual

P.S.  If not gold then Aurum would be my second choice as noone likes my suggestion of Tadpoles.

Reply #183 Top

First, only one denomidation ( do not mix gold, silver, copper like in D&D)

Second, having a word with only 1 syllab is better.

Third, If you do not want to have gold (which personally I like), think about what would be the most valuable material in your world. For example, in dragon lance, it was steel, so they made steel pieces. Since magic cristal are very rare, you might make crystals as money. You could call them shards for example.

Reply #184 Top

cruller *_*

Reply #185 Top

Taurian

The demonations are

1 = Taurian

10 = DeTaurian

100 = CenTaurian

1,000 = TeTaurian

1,000,000 = MegaTaurian

 

Dave Chase

Reply #187 Top

How about making the various coins a part of nation creation?

For one faction, one gold coin is a Gildar, which consists of 10 Rigmars, or 100 Half-Rigmars.

For another faction, one gold coin would be a Regal, which consists of 10 Luckmanns, or 100 royals.

Reply #188 Top

Quoting Shurdus, reply 144


Teef is a dutch word for bitch, as in female dog. It should not be chosen for a currency for that reason alone.

 

But that's a GREAT reason for choosing Teef! :D

 

All dutchies would smile whenever they would exchance money and laugh when some other emperor would propose to trade for Teefs ;)

Reply #189 Top

Quoting the, reply 180
Eh, no country/region on Earth might have called it just "gold" until now. But you might have noticed that this is a PC game, and a fantasy one to that. And in these games it's the standard, if not "state of the art", to call it gold or gold coins or something similar.

Except when it's not. It's not hard to point to games that call it something other then "gold". The Elder Scrolls games use septims, named after the imperial family.

And the excuse that "its a fantasy game" doesn't apply. This whole thing started from Random House, which is editing the book. "Paidien Gold Coins" could work if Paiden is the kingdom issuing the coins, but "gold" flat out doesn't work unless you're literally trading in pure gold bars. Once you mint coins you're dealing with a new thing that gets a new name. Outside the world of lazy game developers, that's how it works.

The book thing has been largely overshadowed by people who just want to use "gold" because that's how it's done in other games, but it isn't going away. The editor isn't going to be swayed into going back to "gold" because a forum thread told him to. So we still need a name to be used in the book, which will also happen to be used in the game.

Actually, it would be very natural to call your currency gold in a world like Elemental post-Cataclysm - the link to the metal is clearly in the name, and that's also the link to the value of the coin. In a world where political entities are only now starting to (re)form it would make sense to go back to basics like gold. To say that "gold is a metal and can't be used as name for a currency" does not make any sense, excuse me.  

It makes perfect sense. If we both mint gold coins, are they worth the same? Probably not. Mine are smaller and have less gold in them. Nobody is going to refer to both coins as "gold", they aren't the same thing, and neither is the same as a bar of pure gold.

Literally nowhere does this happen except in your typical game, because the conversation around the developer table goes "lets call it gold and talk about something more interesting."

Reply #190 Top

Quoting the, reply 180

As has been stated, "Gold" is not a currency. It's a precious metal. No currency is ever called "gold", not even when it's based on a gold standard or really is coins with gold in them.


Eh, no country/region on Earth might have called it just "gold" until now. But you might have noticed that this is a PC game, and a fantasy one to that. And in these games it's the standard, if not "state of the art", to call it gold or gold coins or something similar.

Actually, it would be very natural to call your currency gold in a world like Elemental post-Cataclysm - the link to the metal is clearly in the name, and that's also the link to the value of the coin. In a world where political entities are only now starting to (re)form it would make sense to go back to basics like gold. To say that "gold is a metal and can't be used as name for a currency" does not make any sense, excuse me.  

Take a current real world Empire-building and its currency as example: the Euro (rather Kingdom-building actually! ) "Euro" links to "European" and was chosen as currency name since it symbolizes and links to the political and geographic entities behind this new currency. But in Elemental the world is supposed to be dead and you have to start your Empire/Kingdom building from scratch. There is no economy to speak of. You still have to meet your neighbours. How all of these Empires/Kingdoms still to be formed would have agreed on a single currency name is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is to drag something up from their history (that we know almost nothing of) and it would be a pity since it's all about starting anew with your own, player-tailored civ.    
Indeed, if one nation insists on calling the coin the gildar because it was called that years ago, it beats me why other nations would also do that. After all, maybe once the gildar stood for something the people knew and could relate to, but these days the exonomy that the gildar represents is gone. All that remains now is the gold it is made of, the little picture that was made on the coin is useless now. In this context, calling that little coin gold makes more sense than calling it a goldar because the days the goldar represented something are gone.

Compare it to calling the euro a guilder because that was what we payed with in the Netherlands ten years ago. The older folks still recall paying with those coins, and at the exchange rate of ten years ago we could express todays prices in terms of guilders - like 'this banana costs 2 guilders' - but it means nothing. No one accepts those coins any more. The same thing happened in Elemental. There could be a new currency of course, and then every nation would have their own. Or there could be gold or anything else that every nation accepts. Going with some currency that once had a value seems pointless.

Reply #191 Top

Quoting Shurdus, reply 190
Indeed, if one nation insists on calling the coin the gildar because it was called that years ago, it beats me why other nations would also do that. After all, maybe once the gildar stood for something the people knew and could relate to, but these days the exonomy that the gildar represents is gone. All that remains now is the gold it is made of, the little picture that was made on the coin is useless now. In this context, calling that little coin gold makes more sense than calling it a goldar because the days the goldar represented something are gone.

No it doesn't, because if you have another kingdom putting out another coin that also has gold in it, you've got two distinct things both being called "gold". They're NOT the same thing and they don't have the same value, because the value is based on the gold weight in each coin which isn't identical.

No merchant in that case is going to say "give me 10 gold", they're going to say "give me 10 sovereigns", which is the currently minted coin. The buyer could also use 13 gildars, which have the same gold weight as 10 sovereigns.

Compare it to calling the euro a guilder because that was what we payed with in the Netherlands ten years ago. The older folks still recall paying with those coins, and at the exchange rate of ten years ago we could express todays prices in terms of guilders - like 'this banana costs 2 guilders' - but it means nothing. No one accepts those coins any more. The same thing happened in Elemental. There could be a new currency of course, and then every nation would have their own. Or there could be gold or anything else that every nation accepts. Going with some currency that once had a value seems pointless.

Modern currency is different because in many countries it isn't backed by anything but confidence in it. Coins with gold in them maintain their value even if the kingdom disappears, because the value of the coin is based on the value of the gold. It doesn't devalue just because whoever minted it doesn't exist anymore. But you're not trading in raw gold, you're trading in coins of varying sizes and purity minted by various people. One of them is going to be the benchmark currency, and they're not just going to call it "gold". As has been pointed out numerous times, that just doesn't happen anywhere outside of video games.

Reply #192 Top

I see your point - I saw it the first time :) - with the calling of the currency. I can see the practical value of equating the sovereign to the gildar in terms of the weight of the gold, but in that instance the gold determines the value. The merchant may say 'this item is X in gold' and then the buyer may pay that weight in sovereigns or gildars, statuetes or gold bars, but in the end the gold determines the value.

Equating some coin back to the weight in gold and then from there to the value of another coin seems too much of a hassle to me, if people would do that then they may as well ask for a price in gold rather than in coins as that is what they are practically doing anyway. In the more international area's like outposts and such where it is more likely to encounter buyers from different nations it would seem to me like gold would be the thing that the worth of items are measures in like you said yourself. Insisting in giving names to the coins themselves would be something people might do, but a smart merchant keeps a scale to weigh the coins because he may not know all the coins out there and he may not know if coins have been messed with as was common in those days.

What does this scale measure? Exactly... the weight in gold! Now I understand the difference between currency and gold, and I do understand that gold is not a currency, but that does not mean we need a name for the coins just because that would be what real people would do. Call them horse-faces in game for all I care, I will refer to the coin-units as gold both in speach and on this forum.

Reply #193 Top

Quoting Campaigner, reply 188

Quoting Shurdus, reply 144

Teef is a dutch word for bitch, as in female dog. It should not be chosen for a currency for that reason alone.

 

But that's a GREAT reason for choosing Teef!

 

All dutchies would smile whenever they would exchance money and laugh when some other emperor would propose to trade for Teefs

 

But all the dutch do is smile anyway - since they are always partying.

"Hey gus, Parry time!"

Reply #194 Top

Here is a challenge. I will bet 1 PayPal (CAN/US) dollar, payable to StarDock management, (unless flies is preferrable)  that "Rigma or Gildar" the Printing Houses choice, those who will start printing the actual books... soon, gets the nod despite what could be 15 pages of suggested alternatives, plus unrelated crazy talk... ?

Reply #195 Top

That would be a safe bet so I will not take it. :P

You are probably right, unless they like some name suggested here more. In the end all our crazy talk will have done nothing, but I like talking crazy and agguing for the sake of arguing so I will keep arguing until the name is settled! :)

Reply #196 Top

Gilder (dutch coin) was just another word for gold/golden. Since dutch is neither a country or language in Elemental, I'd rather not have that.
Rigma is a US shipping company, but according to TESS, the name is not trademarked, at least. It reminds me of rigors, or stigma, neither of which I am all that fond of, but it kind of works.

Crowns symbolizes the power of the crown behind the value of the coins. But the rulers here are not royalty. They are wizards, and crowns makes no sense. I'm not going to sugggest calling the coins 'pointy hats' but how about Wands? Short, rolls off the tongue, and emphasises the difference in the setting.

 

 

Reply #197 Top

I think that Men and Fallen should have different currency, both in name and in value. Tthese two should have like 2:1 ratio to each other. Men would value the Fallen currency less and Fallen would value the Men currency also less in retaliation. It will make trade between these two more difficult.

I like "Sovereigns", it is used in Dragon Age but who cares? And I also like the idea of shards being taken into account if we will use a single currency and using this money to convert it into magical power is neat. It is safe to say both Men and Fallen value shards above all else. We could call them "floes". :)

Reply #198 Top

ACMUNT

Arbitary Currency Mesurement Units for the National Treasuary

 

"That'll be 5 acmunts please."

"I beg your pardon!?!"

 

 

On a less serious note, I do think Rigma will be chosen by someone who dosn't even know this thread exists (not that its that important or anything).

Reply #199 Top

Tridus and Shurdus, on the gold discussion: I came up with this constructive solution, a try to be inventive!: when the game starts, the economy of all civs and all trade is based on barters. (value can still be numerically expressed for the player, but in brackets, or cows! or whatever) The first civ that researches Minting as technology get to name their currency which is then automatically also used as currency name for everyone for the rest of the game. This would reflect the high development level of this civ compared to the others, meaning their coins spread and get accepted as the general currency. The player would get a few basic suggestions for names, e.g. based on the name of his civ, sovereign, or just plain "gold coins", but could enter any name he wants.

Just a few comments on the earlier arguments given:

As for using a completely new, campaign (= novel/book) specific name, for me the killing argument against is that no such name would work in the sand box modes. It works perfectly in Morrowwind because it's just one campaign. There have been loads of very good suggestions of names in this thread, but for me I don't like to have them forced into sand box. Gold might not be as "realistic" (for whatever that is worth in this game) but it fits with any game since it is pretty "invisible". SD can publish as many books as they want - that shouldn't ruin our sand box experience.

 

It makes perfect sense. If we both mint gold coins, are they worth the same? Probably not. Mine are smaller and have less gold in them. Nobody is going to refer to both coins as "gold", they aren't the same thing, and neither is the same as a bar of pure gold.

This argument is just based on you deciding that when you give your currency a fancy name everyone automatically agrees on it's value and "content" and follow that. But people in our fantasy world could just as well decide to cut their gold assets into defined units (coins) which are then called simply and conveniently "gold" or "Gold" with capital G or "gold coins". Both are possible currency systems, it's just about imagining a world where people say "gold" to denominate a well defined coin. Why not? 

In any case, in earlier times, and actually even today in some countries, you have a huge part of the economy done by barters, just because any currency in the end is just a system made up by man, and you can't exactly eat gold or your dollar bills. If you need food, you are willing to give someone something of value in order to get food. Now, if you call your currency "sovereign" or "gold" and wether this currency is made out of 80 percent gold or 80 percent wood or whatever are details. We shouldn't worry about details such as the real weight of a gold coin, its purity etc when we play a PC game for fun. In reality people would just throw a hen up the counter and exchange it against a chicken or whatever. But we don't need this reflected in Elemental IMHPOV.

Reply #200 Top

Quoting the, reply 199
Tridus and Shurdus, on the gold discussion: I came up with this constructive solution, a try to be inventive!: when the game starts, the economy of all civs and all trade is based on barters. (value can still be numerically expressed for the player, but in brackets, or cows! or whatever) The first civ that researches Minting as technology get to name their currency which is then automatically also used as currency name for everyone for the rest of the game. This would reflect the high development level of this civ compared to the others, meaning their coins spread and get accepted as the general currency. The player would get a few basic suggestions for names, e.g. based on the name of his civ, sovereign, or just plain "gold coins", but could enter any name he wants.

I like it!

:thumbsup: