Cikomyr

Thinking About the Unthinkable: A U.S.-Iranian Deal

Thinking About the Unthinkable: A U.S.-Iranian Deal

From STRATFOR

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100301_thinking_about_unthinkable_usiranian_deal

Thinking About the Unthinkable: A U.S.-Iranian Deal


Graphic for Geopolitical Intelligence Report

 

By George Friedman

The United States apparently has reached the point where it must either accept that Iran will develop nuclear weapons at some point if it wishes, or take military action to prevent this. There is a third strategy, however: Washington can seek to redefine the Iranian question.

As we have no idea what leaders on either side are thinking, exploring this represents an exercise in geopolitical theory. Let’s begin with the two apparent stark choices.

Diplomacy vs. the Military Option

The diplomatic approach consists of creating a broad coalition prepared to impose what have been called crippling sanctions on Iran. Effective sanctions must be so painful that they compel the target to change its behavior. In Tehran’s case, this could only consist of blocking Iran’s imports of gasoline. Iran imports 35 percent of the gasoline it consumes. It is not clear that a gasoline embargo would be crippling, but it is the only embargo that might work. All other forms of sanctions against Iran would be mere gestures designed to give the impression that something is being done.

The Chinese will not participate in any gasoline embargo. Beijing gets 11 percent of its oil from Iran, and it has made it clear it will continue to deliver gasoline to Iran. Moscow’s position is that Russia might consider sanctions down the road, but it hasn’t specified when, and it hasn’t specified what. The Russians are more than content seeing the U.S. bogged down in the Middle East and so are not inclined to solve American problems in the region. With the Chinese and Russians unlikely to embargo gasoline, these sanctions won’t create significant pain for Iran. Since all other sanctions are gestures, the diplomatic approach is therefore unlikely to work.

The military option has its own risks. First, its success depends on the quality of intelligence on Iran’s nuclear facilities and on the degree of hardening of those targets. Second, it requires successful air attacks. Third, it requires battle damage assessments that tell the attacker whether the strike succeeded. Fourth, it requires follow-on raids to destroy facilities that remain functional. And fifth, attacks must do more than simply set back Iran’s program a few months or even years: If the risk of a nuclear Iran is great enough to justify the risks of war, the outcome must be decisive.

Each point in this process is a potential failure point. Given the multiplicity of these points — which includes others not mentioned — failure may not be an option, but it is certainly possible.

But even if the attacks succeed, the question of what would happen the day after the attacks remains. Iran has its own counters. It has a superbly effective terrorist organization, Hezbollah, at its disposal. It has sufficient influence in Iraq to destabilize that country and force the United States to keep forces in Iraq badly needed elsewhere. And it has the ability to use mines and missiles to attempt to close the Strait of Hormuz and the Persian Gulf shipping lanes for some period — driving global oil prices through the roof while the global economy is struggling to stabilize itself. Iran’s position on its nuclear program is rooted in the awareness that while it might not have assured options in the event of a military strike, it has counters that create complex and unacceptable risks. Iran therefore does not believe the United States will strike or permit Israel to strike, as the consequences would be unacceptable.

To recap, the United States either can accept a nuclear Iran or risk an attack that might fail outright, impose only a minor delay on Iran’s nuclear program or trigger extremely painful responses even if it succeeds. When neither choice is acceptable, it is necessary to find a third choice.

Redefining the Iranian Problem

As long as the problem of Iran is defined in terms of its nuclear program, the United States is in an impossible place. Therefore, the Iranian problem must be redefined. One attempt at redefinition involves hope for an uprising against the current regime. We will not repeat our views on this in depth, but in short, we do not regard these demonstrations to be a serious threat to the regime. Tehran has handily crushed them, and even if they did succeed, we do not believe they would produce a regime any more accommodating toward the United States. The idea of waiting for a revolution is more useful as a justification for inaction — and accepting a nuclear Iran — than it is as a strategic alternative.

At this moment, Iran is the most powerful regional military force in the Persian Gulf. Unless the United States permanently stations substantial military forces in the region, there is no military force able to block Iran. Turkey is more powerful than Iran, but it is far from the Persian Gulf and focused on other matters at the moment, and it doesn’t want to take on Iran militarily — at least not for a very long time. At the very least, this means the United States cannot withdraw from Iraq. Baghdad is too weak to block Iran from the Arabian Peninsula, and the Iraqi government has elements friendly toward Iran.

Historically, regional stability depended on the Iraqi-Iranian balance of power. When it tottered in 1990, the result was the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. The United States did not push into Iraq in 1991 because it did not want to upset the regional balance of power by creating a vacuum in Iraq. Rather, U.S. strategy was to re-establish the Iranian-Iraqi balance of power to the greatest extent possible, as the alternative was basing large numbers of U.S. troops in the region.

The decision to invade Iraq in 2003 assumed that once the Baathist regime was destroyed the United States would rapidly create a strong Iraqi government that would balance Iran. The core mistake in this thinking lay in failing to recognize that the new Iraqi government would be filled with Shiites, many of whom regarded Iran as a friendly power. Rather than balancing Iran, Iraq could well become an Iranian satellite. The Iranians strongly encouraged the American invasion precisely because they wanted to create a situation where Iraq moved toward Iran’s orbit. When this in fact began happening, the Americans had no choice but an extended occupation of Iraq, a trap both the Bush and Obama administrations have sought to escape.

It is difficult to define Iran’s influence in Iraq at this point. But at a minimum, while Iran may not be able to impose a pro-Iranian state on Iraq, it has sufficient influence to block the creation of any strong Iraqi government either through direct influence in the government or by creating destabilizing violence in Iraq. In other words, Iran can prevent Iraq from emerging as a counterweight to Iran, and Iran has every reason to do this. Indeed, it is doing just this.

The Fundamental U.S.-Iranian Issue

Iraq, not nuclear weapons, is the fundamental issue between Iran and the United States. Iran wants to see a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq so Iran can assume its place as the dominant military power in the Persian Gulf. The United States wants to withdraw from Iraq because it faces challenges in Afghanistan — where it will also need Iranian cooperation — and elsewhere. Committing forces to Iraq for an extended period of time while fighting in Afghanistan leaves the United States exposed globally. Events involving China or Russia — such as the 2008 war in Georgia — would see the United States without a counter. The alternative would be a withdrawal from Afghanistan or a massive increase in U.S. armed forces. The former is not going to happen any time soon, and the latter is an economic impossibility.

Therefore, the United States must find a way to counterbalance Iran without an open-ended deployment in Iraq and without expecting the re-emergence of Iraqi power, because Iran is not going to allow the latter to happen. The nuclear issue is simply an element of this broader geopolitical problem, as it adds another element to the Iranian tool kit. It is not a stand-alone issue.

The United States has an interesting strategy in redefining problems that involves creating extraordinarily alliances with mortal ideological and geopolitical enemies to achieve strategic U.S. goals. First consider Franklin Roosevelt’s alliance with Stalinist Russia to block Nazi Germany. He pursued this alliance despite massive political outrage not only from isolationists but also from institutions like the Roman Catholic Church that regarded the Soviets as the epitome of evil.

Now consider Richard Nixon’s decision to align with China at a time when the Chinese were supplying weapons to North Vietnam that were killing American troops. Moreover, Mao — who had said he did not fear nuclear war as China could absorb a few hundred million deaths — was considered, with reason, quite mad. Nevertheless, Nixon, as anti-Communist and anti-Chinese a figure as existed in American politics, understood that an alliance (and despite the lack of a formal treaty, alliance it was) with China was essential to counterbalance the Soviet Union at a time when American power was still being sapped in Vietnam.

Roosevelt and Nixon both faced impossible strategic situations unless they were prepared to redefine the strategic equation dramatically and accept the need for alliance with countries that had previously been regarded as strategic and moral threats. American history is filled with opportunistic alliances designed to solve impossible strategic dilemmas. The Stalin and Mao cases represent stunning alliances with prior enemies designed to block a third power seen as more dangerous.

It is said that Ahmadinejad is crazy. It was also said that Mao and Stalin were crazy, in both cases with much justification. Ahmadinejad has said many strange things and issued numerous threats. But when Roosevelt ignored what Stalin said and Nixon ignored what Mao said, they each discovered that Stalin’s and Mao’s actions were far more rational and predictable than their rhetoric. Similarly, what the Iranians say and what they do are quite different.

U.S. vs. Iranian Interests

Consider the American interest. First, it must maintain the flow of oil through the Strait of Hormuz. The United States cannot tolerate interruptions, and that limits the risks it can take. Second, it must try to keep any one power from controlling all of the oil in the Persian Gulf, as that would give such a country too much long-term power within the global system. Third, while the United States is involved in a war with elements of the Sunni Muslim world, it must reduce the forces devoted to that war. Fourth, it must deal with the Iranian problem directly. Europe will go as far as sanctions but no further, while the Russians and Chinese won’t even go that far yet. Fifth, it must prevent an Israeli strike on Iran for the same reasons it must avoid a strike itself, as the day after any Israeli strike will be left to the United States to manage.

Now consider the Iranian interest. First, it must guarantee regime survival. It sees the United States as dangerous and unpredictable. In less than 10 years, it has found itself with American troops on both its eastern and western borders. Second, it must guarantee that Iraq will never again be a threat to Iran. Third, it must increase its authority within the Muslim world against Sunni Muslims, whom it regards as rivals and sometimes as threats.

Now consider the overlaps. The United States is in a war against some (not all) Sunnis. These are Iran’s enemies, too. Iran does not want U.S. troops along its eastern and western borders. In point of fact, the United States does not want this either. The United States does not want any interruption of oil flow through Hormuz. Iran much prefers profiting from those flows to interrupting them. Finally, the Iranians understand that it is the United States alone that is Iran’s existential threat. If Iran can solve the American problem its regime survival is assured. The United States understands, or should, that resurrecting the Iraqi counterweight to Iran is not an option: It is either U.S. forces in Iraq or accepting Iran’s unconstrained role.

Therefore, as an exercise in geopolitical theory, consider the following. Washington’s current options are unacceptable. By redefining the issue in terms of dealing with the consequences of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, there are three areas of mutual interest. First, both powers have serious quarrels with Sunni Islam. Second, both powers want to see a reduction in U.S. forces in the region. Third, both countries have an interest in assuring the flow of oil, one to use the oil, the other to profit from it to increase its regional power.

The strategic problem is, of course, Iranian power in the Persian Gulf. The Chinese model is worth considering here. China issued bellicose rhetoric before and after Nixon’s and Kissinger’s visits. But whatever it did internally, it was not a major risk-taker in its foreign policy. China’s relationship with the United States was of critical importance to China. Beijing fully understood the value of this relationship, and while it might continue to rail about imperialism, it was exceedingly careful not to undermine this core interest.

The major risk of the third strategy is that Iran will overstep its bounds and seek to occupy the oil-producing countries of the Persian Gulf. Certainly, this would be tempting, but it would bring a rapid American intervention. The United States would not block indirect Iranian influence, however, from financial participation in regional projects to more significant roles for the Shia in Arabian states. Washington’s limits for Iranian power are readily defined and enforced when exceeded.

The great losers in the third strategy, of course, would be the Sunnis in the Arabian Peninsula. But Iraq aside, they are incapable of defending themselves, and the United States has no long-term interest in their economic and political relations. So long as the oil flows, and no single power directly controls the entire region, the United States does not have a stake in this issue.

Israel would also be enraged. It sees ongoing American-Iranian hostility as a given. And it wants the United States to eliminate the Iranian nuclear threat. But eliminating this threat is not an option given the risks, so the choice is a nuclear Iran outside some structured relationship with the United States or within it. The choice that Israel might want, a U.S.-Iranian conflict, is unlikely. Israel can no more drive American strategy than can Saudi Arabia.

From the American standpoint, an understanding with Iran would have the advantage of solving an increasingly knotty problem. In the long run, it would also have the advantage of being a self-containing relationship. Turkey is much more powerful than Iran and is emerging from its century-long shell. Its relations with the United States are delicate. The United States would infuriate the Turks by doing this deal, forcing them to become more active faster. They would thus emerge in Iraq as a counterbalance to Iran. But Turkey’s anger at the United States would serve U.S. interests. The Iranian position in Iraq would be temporary, and the United States would not have to break its word as Turkey eventually would eliminate Iranian influence in Iraq.

Ultimately, the greatest shock of such a maneuver on both sides would be political. The U.S.-Soviet agreement shocked Americans deeply, the Soviets less so because Stalin’s pact with Hitler had already stunned them. The Nixon-Mao entente shocked all sides. It was utterly unthinkable at the time, but once people on both sides thought about it, it was manageable.

Such a maneuver would be particularly difficult for U.S. President Barack Obama, as it would be widely interpreted as another example of weakness rather than as a ruthless and cunning move. A military strike would enhance his political standing, while an apparently cynical deal would undermine it. Ahmadinejad could sell such a deal domestically much more easily. In any event, the choices now are a nuclear Iran, extended airstrikes with all their attendant consequences, or something else. This is what something else might look like and how it would fit in with American strategic tradition.

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21,622 views 71 replies
Reply #26 Top

People who achieve at the top of a power structure are usually balancing politics and faith to reach where they are, and thu govern as such.

I do not deny this, but then that is the problem of religion.  it should not be this way, and often is not.  But yes, there are cases where that is evident (Pius).  Just because it happens does not mean it should be.

Reply #27 Top

do not deny this, but then that is the problem of religion. it should not be this way, and often is not. But yes, there are cases where that is evident (Pius). Just because it happens does not mean it should be.

I have a little saying I say to my friends who are eternally posturing about issue X or Y (usually Palestine/Israel issue): "It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. The real issue is to make the situation better".

I'm being brainwashed on both sides to believe that the other are a bunch of heartless jerks who has no moral ground. I personally believe that it doesn't care if the Palestinians are good or bad, nor if the Israeli were thieves or not 50 years ago. What matters is now, and what will happen next.

In the same line of though.. maybe it would be nice if religious leaders acted like you say. Or maybe it wouldn't. Actually, no. I am quite happy religious leaders to be rational leader, because it makes the dialogue possible. Otherwise, the Christians would still be crusading against the Muslims, and the Muslims would still be warring against the Hindou and Buddhists on a large scale.

It doesn't happen, as their leaders use religion as a convenience rather than real motivation.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 27
I'm being brainwashed on both sides to believe that the other are a bunch of heartless jerks who has no moral ground. I personally believe that it doesn't care if the Palestinians are good or bad, nor if the Israeli were thieves or not 50 years ago. What matters is now, and what will happen next.

That is a questionn that has been plaguing American politics for the last 60 years.  But when one side is intransigent, what is the solution?

In the same line of though.. maybe it would be nice if religious leaders acted like you say. Or maybe it wouldn't. Actually, no. I am quite happy religious leaders to be rational leader, because it makes the dialogue possible. Otherwise, the Christians would still be crusading against the Muslims, and the Muslims would still be warring against the Hindou and Buddhists on a large scale.

Actually no.  Well, at least if they were idealistic and lived up to their teaching.  After all, what is the basis for their teaching?  Christ.  And he was not about starting crusades or Jihads (this only applies to Christianity since Islam supplanted Christ with Mohammed).  If they had lived up to their faith, there would not have been Crusade I, let alone the others.  nor the Spanish Inquisition, the boy Pope, etc.

I am getting too reliigious again, but I will say that faith is not religion.  Religion is the construct of man to accomodate faith in the physical world.  And like all things man creates, it is flawed.

I think I will copy this reply to my computer.  In case the gremlins are still hungry. ;)

Reply #29 Top

That is a questionn that has been plaguing American politics for the last 60 years. But when one side is intransigent, what is the solution?

Which side is intransigent? Seriously?

There are more than a few palestinians who would be more than happy to settle some sort of piece, but Israel humiliates them by breaking their promises by reacting to the actions of the very people who have all the interest in seeing that no peace happens.

In short, Israel is playing Hamas's game quite well, making sure that every time anyone on the palestinian side is genuinely interested in making deals, they will do something that will make them loose all credibility on the Palestinian's side.

Seriously. The most recent major offensive was in retaliation against the Hamas's so-called "break of ceasefire", which happened because of the massive firing of rockets from the Gaza strip since Novembre 2008.

Why November 2008? On America's election day, Israel commited an air raid on Gaza ground.

Why was there an air raid? It was to stop the smuggling of weaponry from Egypt. Israel claimed that the Palestinians and Hamas had not been respecting the cease-fire anyway, as rockets had been fired BEFORE November 2008 since the start of the cease-fire.

I think I covered the whole story. Let me give you why I think Israel acted unreasonabely. First of all, the number of rocket attacks that occured on Israel diminished by 98% during the cease-fire. I call that quite an effort on Hamas's part, don't you agree? The remaining 2% was made by rogue cells in the Gaza strip that were kinda extremists and were political ennemy of the Hamas  (the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades), and these WANTED THE PEACE TO FAIL.

After about 60 rockets that was launched during the cease-fire, and with Hamas doing it's very best to prevent the attacks on Israel during that time, Israel striked.

Now, if Israel's strike had been legit, justified and rational, they would probably have done it on any day. But they deliberately done so during Barack Obama's election, which was probably one of the most reported event of the year, to make sure that they wouldn't appear in any country's paper. Now, if you are acting like thieves, why should you treat you like an honorable nation? Why should I accept the so-called justification that Hamas had "Broken the truce"?

Hamas was humiliated. They had used a lot of their credential to the populace of Gaza to try to enforce the truce, and they got betrayed by Israel. Their own most political violent members decided to push to have the organisation start attacking Israel again. The truce was thing of the past, and Israel went in stomping a few months later, having a kill ratio of 20 to 1, many civilians part of the count. I don't think Hamas is going to be trying to trust Israel anytime soon.

Just about last week, some members of the PLO agreed to proceed to some truce talks with Israel. Maybe they could strike a deal, who knows?

Eh. Israel just answered to that trust with a gigantic "Fuck You" by announcing the building of yet more residential blocks in Jerusalem East and the West Bank. I don't think the people in the PLO that pushed for the talks have any kind of political power anymore. Suckers!

How can the political leaders of Palestine try to win a fucking election by claiming that they will seek peace with Israel when events like that just keep happening? And after being humiliated again and again, the Palestinians are just fucking tired of trying to fight a top-notch military with rocks, and decided to give Hamas a chance. They gave peace a chance, but Israel doesn't seem to understand that the Palestinians are not a huge monolithic block, but are treating them if they were.

This really makes me sad. I don't mind Israel in itself, and I realise the muslims can be quite fucking intransigeant when they hold the biggest end of the stick, I know, I lived there a year. But there are just chains of events that makes me really wonder who is the fanatic.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 29

Which side is intransigent? Seriously?

There are more than a few palestinians who would be more than happy to settle some sort of piece, but Israel humiliates them by breaking their promises by reacting to the actions of the very people who have all the interest in seeing that no peace happens.

That is obvious.  What side has not given at all?  The palestinians.

And I am sure you are right about "more than a few".  Unforutnately they are ruled by the few that have no interest in compromise, just my way or the highway.

As for the rest of your response, we can debate that all day (and I have seen Leauki do so), but get no where.  It is a matter of philosophy.  Do you play for a tie or play to win?  In war, playing for a tie means a stalemate which means it goes on forever.

Reply #31 Top

It is a matter of philosophy.

It is a matter of goodwill! How can you expect a people to try to reach for peace when it's peaceseeking minority is getting humiliated every time?

What side has not given at all? The Palestinians

Can you elaborate a little more? What does the Palestinians could give?

Reply #32 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 31

Can you elaborate a little more? What does the Palestinians could give?

Their creed that calls for the total destruction of israel.

It is a matter of goodwill! How can you expect a people to try to reach for peace when it's peaceseeking minority is getting humiliated every time?

Unfortunately it is not.  In war, it is a matter of making sure you have destroyed your enemy to the point they no longer have the capacity to wage war.  There is no such thing as an "unequal response".  You kill my family, and I will not stop until there is nothing left of you or your family to inflict more damage.  That is war.  Anything less is just a play game.

Reply #33 Top

Their creed that calls for the total destruction of israel.

That some of them who have that creed, not all of them. But the ones that don't call for the destruction of Israel don't have much political credential among their own people when Israel humiliates them by reacting aggressively to their political ennemie's actions.

Unfortunately it is not. In war, it is a matter of making sure you have destroyed your enemy to the point they no longer have the capacity to wage war. There is no such thing as an "unequal response". You kill my family, and I will not stop until there is nothing left of you or your family to inflict more damage. That is war. Anything less is just a play game.

No. War is not fought like that. You have not rampage across Germany once you beaten them. Nor has France, or the U.K.. You simply dominated them, and made your best to make sure they would be on your side afterwhile by making them grateful for your gentle occupation.

Palestinians have been under Israel's domination for the past 40 years. The palestinians have been using somewhat efficient weaponry (missiles) only in the past 10. I think Israel failed hard at securing a lasting peace by making sure Palestinian population segments would be happy under the new reality.

If you had treated Germany the same way Israel did the Palestinians, Germans would have started resisting and doing guerilla warfare on your troops. They would have attacked your population centers, and France's and the U.K.'s. Putting them under an economical blockade, making sure no real economy can be developped, that's no way of winning a war.

In a war, you have to stop fighting eventually. Even if the other guy tried to kill you yesterday, the war is over. Focus on those who are trying to kill you TODAY. You americans learned that lesson in Iraq, and many Sunni milia are now somewhat allied with you, which helped a lot on securing many countryside on that wartorn country.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 33

That some of them who have that creed, not all of them. But the ones that don't call for the destruction of Israel don't have much political credential among their own people when Israel humiliates them by reacting aggressively to their political ennemie's actions.

But those people are the ruling party and it is a part of their party platform.  And they have refused to repudiate it or remove it.

No. War is not fought like that. You have not rampage across Germany once you beaten them. Nor has France, or the U.K.. You simply dominated them, and made your best to make sure they would be on your side afterwhile by making them grateful for your gentle occupation.

Once you have beaten them......Taht is the sticking point,  germany sued for peace several times before they said uncle.  The allies refused.  So the war was over when Germany no longer had the capablity to wage war.  And that is my point.  I did not say you had to act like a bunch of barbarians and rape and pillage, only that you remove the capability of the opponent to wage war. And that was done.

Palestinians have been under Israel's domination for the past 40 years. The palestinians have been using somewhat efficient weaponry (missiles) only in the past 10. I think Israel failed hard at securing a lasting peace by making sure Palestinian population segments would be happy under the new reality.

That is by their own choosing.  At any time, they could have ignored Israel and built a nation.  They have not.  And no one has stopped them.  That is akin to saying that Puerto Rico has been under the domination of America for the last 100 years.  Technically true, but it is not like they had no choice.  They just have decided they like that arrangement.

If you had treated Germany the same way Israel did the Palestinians, Germans would have started resisting and doing guerilla warfare on your troops. They would have attacked your population centers, and France's and the U.K.'s. Putting them under an economical blockade, making sure no real economy can be developped, that's no way of winning a war.

The Allies treated them worse.  Remember Dresden?  Until the war was over, the Germans got a lot worse than the palestinians have yet to see.

In a war, you have to stop fighting eventually.

Again, only when the capability of the other side to wage war against you has been removed.  That was the problem in Iraq in 91.  Korea today, Vietnam in 73.  And indeed germany in 18.  That condition was not met, and the war, despite the claims of self promoting poltiicians, was not over.

Reply #35 Top

That was the problem in Iraq in 91

Wait. There was an actual good reason to no topple SH in 91. don't tell me you forgot it? We talked about it in this very thread!

War are not always fought "to the end". They are fought until no more convenient to do so. It wasn't convenient to topple Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War. Nor wasn't convenient back in the 50s to keep fighting China and NKorea until we ran out of men.

Reply #36 Top

Germans would have started resisting and doing guerilla warfare on your troops.

There was guerrilla warfare in Germany for years after the war. I'd suggest you look up "Werewolf's" (not the fantasy monsters). Had Germany been treated to the cuddly, feel-good, approach to war that seems to be in vogue today by the increasingly socialist members of the world community, there probably would have been greater resistance. 

How many times must the world be duped into wars, genocide, or repression in the name of socialism - be it national socialism or full tilt communism? It's the same story time after time. The promise of utopia, until the people find out the utopia is for a select few and they must fight either suffer under it or rise up against it. What is really surprising is the huge drive to socialize the US, the one place that could save them. Well, the socialist won't have any of it. They won't make the same mistake as in the past. No white knight to come to the rescue next time. Go quietly to the slaughter, my loving sheep. In many ways Democracies are their own worst enemy. History will repeat. Ask Easr Europeans who have the freshest memories of the socialist loving care and kindness. It's only the current generation that is being liberalized into blindness as many in the West have been. OK off rant.

Reply #37 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 35
Wait. There was an actual good reason to no topple SH in 91. don't tell me you forgot it? We talked about it in this very thread!

War are not always fought "to the end". They are fought until no more convenient to do so. It wasn't convenient to topple Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War. Nor wasn't convenient back in the 50s to keep fighting China and NKorea until we ran out of men.

And we saw what happened.  The reason Bush 41 did not fight it to the end (and I do not recall the discussion, but will go back and read the thread) was due to pressure from the coalition (or so it was stated).  Which was wrong as the problem did not go away, but instead just festered for 10 years.  It would have been better to have booted him in 91, as the Iranians were not as strong (having just come off their long war with Saddam themselves) and less likely to cause problems.  But as they say, that is history and all else is "woulda, coulda, shoulda".

And again in the 50s, what was not better?  a 60 year hot "cease fire" or another few years of war?  I am not saying one is better, but clearly the war never ended.  I was just making a point.

Reply #38 Top

There was guerrilla warfare in Germany for years after the war. I'd suggest you look up "Werewolf's" (not the fantasy monsters). Had Germany been treated to the cuddly, feel-good, approach to war that seems to be in vogue today by the increasingly socialist members of the world community, there probably would have been greater resistance.

Aye, but that movement eventually died out because of a good ruling from the Allies. The USA allowed the WGerman people to get their economy back on their feet by opening up their market for german exports. The same thing happened in Japan.

Ergo: In many case, the USA have been very good overseer after an invasion and made their best to make sure the conquered population would be strong and loyal to the USA against a potential heating up of the Cold War. Allowing the importation of Japanese, German and Italian goods in exchange of geopolitic loyalty was a good deal for everybody around, and potential civil resistance movement were kept marginal.

Stratfor ran a very interesting paper on it last week.

But the civil resistance movement hasn't been kept marginal in Palestine. It isn't the conquered's people fault, but the overseer's.

Anyway, on the long run, Palestinians' and Israelian's fates are intertwined. The Palestininans cannot have an economical base large ennough to supply labor to their large population, so they'll have to use Israeli's markets.

Reply #39 Top

In many case, the USA have been very good overseer after an invasion

Other than over a decimated people, I do not think any country is a "good" overseer.  The best overseer is the one that is not there.

Reply #40 Top

Other than over a decimated people, I do not think any country is a "good" overseer. The best overseer is the one that is not there.

Well, in Germany, Italy and Japan, you have done quite a good job in making sure they would be able to stand on their feet and not resent you too much. I mean, if you have to conquer a country for your own defense, at least make a good job into rebuilding it so that the people in it aren't too resentful and in retrospect, are grateful that it was YOU who defeated them and not, (let's say...) the USSR.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 40

Other than over a decimated people, I do not think any country is a "good" overseer. The best overseer is the one that is not there.
Well, in Germany, Italy and Japan, you have done quite a good job in making sure they would be able to stand on their feet and not resent you too much. I mean, if you have to conquer a country for your own defense, at least make a good job into rebuilding it so that the people in it aren't too resentful and in retrospect, are grateful that it was YOU who defeated them and not, (let's say...) the USSR.

I would think of those more as custodian - keeping order until the natives can again govern themselves.  The only real difference between them and Iraq is the rhetoric (as far as aims and outcomes).

As for the USSR, you can always rule with an iron boot for as long as you have an iron boot.  As we saw, when the boot came off, so did the rulers of the Warsaw pact.

Where Overseer "worked" is generally in the English Commonwealth where the natives were in fact decimated.  But even then, once the colonials became the natives, they wanted out as well.

Reply #42 Top

But even then, once the colonials became the natives, they wanted out as well

It happened once. I wouldn't call that a trend.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 42

But even then, once the colonials became the natives, they wanted out as well
It happened once. I wouldn't call that a trend.

once violently, but did not all the commonwealth nations vote for independence from the UK?  You have a symbolic head of state being the Queen, but from what I see, you do tell the UK where to put it when they get your dander up.

Reply #44 Top

once violently, but did not all the commonwealth nations vote for independence from the UK? You have a symbolic head of state being the Queen, but from what I see, you do tell the UK where to put it when they get your dander up.

Aye, eventually. But that was done progressively and in the respect of all parties (except French-Canadians). Exactly the way a good Overseer should eventually withdraw.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 44
Aye, eventually. But that was done progressively and in the respect of all parties (except French-Canadians). Exactly the way a good Overseer should eventually withdraw.

Ah, so except for us rebels, the UK is a good overseer.  Now I understand. ;)

Reply #46 Top

Conquered is a strong term, IMO is too strong a word used to describe any US Military Occupation, with the Indian wars being the only possible caveat to that (of course show me any country today, and I'll show you a native population that has been displaced, subjugated, or eliminated). A conquered peoples are stripped of their land, wealth and national identity. This has not been the case after WWII or any war since. Of course that term does help show the US in a light that would benefit some groups agendas. Occupier is another, since the US either typically leaves after a period of time or stays at the pleasure of the host country, typically for mutual benefit (modern day Germany). The proof, as doc mentioned, that we leave when asked is is well documented (Philippines, Panama, Lebanon, etc.). Chuck isn't alone, when he hears a bit of contempt in your choice of words.

Reply #47 Top

The proof, as doc mentioned, that we leave when asked is is well documented (Philippines, Panama, Lebanon, etc.).

Having a governement independant ennough to be able to ask you to leave in the first place is proof that you are willing to leave on the short/mid run. You simply manoeuver yourselves into a position where countries you don't want to leave are in no position to ask anything else.

 

Reply #48 Top

You simply manoeuver yourselves into a position where countries you don't want to leave are in no position to ask anything else.

An example please?

Reply #49 Top

An example please?

You aren't close of leaving Iraq (whatever Obama is trying to claim). Nor are you close of leaving Afghanistan. Yet, the governments in place aren't calling for your departure since they rely on your presence to be in power.

It's.. a self-evident game. Not a bad one, just a matter of fact. The USA are quite good at playing internal political games for the International eyes, so you make sure that the "legitimate government" won't be in a position to as for you to leave as long as you actually have business there.

Afterwhile, if you don't really care if you stay or not military in the country on a strategic point of view (ex: Lebanon), well you simply wait until you are asked to leave to save face, which again isn't a bad attitude.

The USA aren't a bad conqueror, in the "take over a country's administration to serve our purposes" meaning of conqueror. Not the "let's take territory" meaning. Well, until Iraq that is. But then again, maybe it did served your purpose to have this country in chaos. Friedman claims so, even if it upset the regional balance.

Reply #50 Top

An example please?

You aren't close of leaving Iraq (whatever Obama is trying to claim). Nor are you close of leaving Afghanistan. Yet, the governments in place aren't calling for your departure since they rely on your presence to be in power

Oh come on, those are the worst two examples you come up with. The Iraq war, for all intensive purpose, ended in 2008. It lasted longer than US involvement in WWII. How long was the Allied occupation of Europe and Japan? Five years? More? Talk to me about Iraq in 2013. Afghanistan is still a hot war, it should not even be included. But if it makes you feel better about being self-righteous to use terms like conquered, and self-evident games, more power to you. America bad, but in a good way, right? I get the double-speak.