Thinking About the Unthinkable: A U.S.-Iranian Deal

From STRATFOR

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100301_thinking_about_unthinkable_usiranian_deal

Thinking About the Unthinkable: A U.S.-Iranian Deal


Graphic for Geopolitical Intelligence Report

 

By George Friedman

The United States apparently has reached the point where it must either accept that Iran will develop nuclear weapons at some point if it wishes, or take military action to prevent this. There is a third strategy, however: Washington can seek to redefine the Iranian question.

As we have no idea what leaders on either side are thinking, exploring this represents an exercise in geopolitical theory. Let’s begin with the two apparent stark choices.

Diplomacy vs. the Military Option

The diplomatic approach consists of creating a broad coalition prepared to impose what have been called crippling sanctions on Iran. Effective sanctions must be so painful that they compel the target to change its behavior. In Tehran’s case, this could only consist of blocking Iran’s imports of gasoline. Iran imports 35 percent of the gasoline it consumes. It is not clear that a gasoline embargo would be crippling, but it is the only embargo that might work. All other forms of sanctions against Iran would be mere gestures designed to give the impression that something is being done.

The Chinese will not participate in any gasoline embargo. Beijing gets 11 percent of its oil from Iran, and it has made it clear it will continue to deliver gasoline to Iran. Moscow’s position is that Russia might consider sanctions down the road, but it hasn’t specified when, and it hasn’t specified what. The Russians are more than content seeing the U.S. bogged down in the Middle East and so are not inclined to solve American problems in the region. With the Chinese and Russians unlikely to embargo gasoline, these sanctions won’t create significant pain for Iran. Since all other sanctions are gestures, the diplomatic approach is therefore unlikely to work.

The military option has its own risks. First, its success depends on the quality of intelligence on Iran’s nuclear facilities and on the degree of hardening of those targets. Second, it requires successful air attacks. Third, it requires battle damage assessments that tell the attacker whether the strike succeeded. Fourth, it requires follow-on raids to destroy facilities that remain functional. And fifth, attacks must do more than simply set back Iran’s program a few months or even years: If the risk of a nuclear Iran is great enough to justify the risks of war, the outcome must be decisive.

Each point in this process is a potential failure point. Given the multiplicity of these points — which includes others not mentioned — failure may not be an option, but it is certainly possible.

But even if the attacks succeed, the question of what would happen the day after the attacks remains. Iran has its own counters. It has a superbly effective terrorist organization, Hezbollah, at its disposal. It has sufficient influence in Iraq to destabilize that country and force the United States to keep forces in Iraq badly needed elsewhere. And it has the ability to use mines and missiles to attempt to close the Strait of Hormuz and the Persian Gulf shipping lanes for some period — driving global oil prices through the roof while the global economy is struggling to stabilize itself. Iran’s position on its nuclear program is rooted in the awareness that while it might not have assured options in the event of a military strike, it has counters that create complex and unacceptable risks. Iran therefore does not believe the United States will strike or permit Israel to strike, as the consequences would be unacceptable.

To recap, the United States either can accept a nuclear Iran or risk an attack that might fail outright, impose only a minor delay on Iran’s nuclear program or trigger extremely painful responses even if it succeeds. When neither choice is acceptable, it is necessary to find a third choice.

Redefining the Iranian Problem

As long as the problem of Iran is defined in terms of its nuclear program, the United States is in an impossible place. Therefore, the Iranian problem must be redefined. One attempt at redefinition involves hope for an uprising against the current regime. We will not repeat our views on this in depth, but in short, we do not regard these demonstrations to be a serious threat to the regime. Tehran has handily crushed them, and even if they did succeed, we do not believe they would produce a regime any more accommodating toward the United States. The idea of waiting for a revolution is more useful as a justification for inaction — and accepting a nuclear Iran — than it is as a strategic alternative.

At this moment, Iran is the most powerful regional military force in the Persian Gulf. Unless the United States permanently stations substantial military forces in the region, there is no military force able to block Iran. Turkey is more powerful than Iran, but it is far from the Persian Gulf and focused on other matters at the moment, and it doesn’t want to take on Iran militarily — at least not for a very long time. At the very least, this means the United States cannot withdraw from Iraq. Baghdad is too weak to block Iran from the Arabian Peninsula, and the Iraqi government has elements friendly toward Iran.

Historically, regional stability depended on the Iraqi-Iranian balance of power. When it tottered in 1990, the result was the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. The United States did not push into Iraq in 1991 because it did not want to upset the regional balance of power by creating a vacuum in Iraq. Rather, U.S. strategy was to re-establish the Iranian-Iraqi balance of power to the greatest extent possible, as the alternative was basing large numbers of U.S. troops in the region.

The decision to invade Iraq in 2003 assumed that once the Baathist regime was destroyed the United States would rapidly create a strong Iraqi government that would balance Iran. The core mistake in this thinking lay in failing to recognize that the new Iraqi government would be filled with Shiites, many of whom regarded Iran as a friendly power. Rather than balancing Iran, Iraq could well become an Iranian satellite. The Iranians strongly encouraged the American invasion precisely because they wanted to create a situation where Iraq moved toward Iran’s orbit. When this in fact began happening, the Americans had no choice but an extended occupation of Iraq, a trap both the Bush and Obama administrations have sought to escape.

It is difficult to define Iran’s influence in Iraq at this point. But at a minimum, while Iran may not be able to impose a pro-Iranian state on Iraq, it has sufficient influence to block the creation of any strong Iraqi government either through direct influence in the government or by creating destabilizing violence in Iraq. In other words, Iran can prevent Iraq from emerging as a counterweight to Iran, and Iran has every reason to do this. Indeed, it is doing just this.

The Fundamental U.S.-Iranian Issue

Iraq, not nuclear weapons, is the fundamental issue between Iran and the United States. Iran wants to see a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq so Iran can assume its place as the dominant military power in the Persian Gulf. The United States wants to withdraw from Iraq because it faces challenges in Afghanistan — where it will also need Iranian cooperation — and elsewhere. Committing forces to Iraq for an extended period of time while fighting in Afghanistan leaves the United States exposed globally. Events involving China or Russia — such as the 2008 war in Georgia — would see the United States without a counter. The alternative would be a withdrawal from Afghanistan or a massive increase in U.S. armed forces. The former is not going to happen any time soon, and the latter is an economic impossibility.

Therefore, the United States must find a way to counterbalance Iran without an open-ended deployment in Iraq and without expecting the re-emergence of Iraqi power, because Iran is not going to allow the latter to happen. The nuclear issue is simply an element of this broader geopolitical problem, as it adds another element to the Iranian tool kit. It is not a stand-alone issue.

The United States has an interesting strategy in redefining problems that involves creating extraordinarily alliances with mortal ideological and geopolitical enemies to achieve strategic U.S. goals. First consider Franklin Roosevelt’s alliance with Stalinist Russia to block Nazi Germany. He pursued this alliance despite massive political outrage not only from isolationists but also from institutions like the Roman Catholic Church that regarded the Soviets as the epitome of evil.

Now consider Richard Nixon’s decision to align with China at a time when the Chinese were supplying weapons to North Vietnam that were killing American troops. Moreover, Mao — who had said he did not fear nuclear war as China could absorb a few hundred million deaths — was considered, with reason, quite mad. Nevertheless, Nixon, as anti-Communist and anti-Chinese a figure as existed in American politics, understood that an alliance (and despite the lack of a formal treaty, alliance it was) with China was essential to counterbalance the Soviet Union at a time when American power was still being sapped in Vietnam.

Roosevelt and Nixon both faced impossible strategic situations unless they were prepared to redefine the strategic equation dramatically and accept the need for alliance with countries that had previously been regarded as strategic and moral threats. American history is filled with opportunistic alliances designed to solve impossible strategic dilemmas. The Stalin and Mao cases represent stunning alliances with prior enemies designed to block a third power seen as more dangerous.

It is said that Ahmadinejad is crazy. It was also said that Mao and Stalin were crazy, in both cases with much justification. Ahmadinejad has said many strange things and issued numerous threats. But when Roosevelt ignored what Stalin said and Nixon ignored what Mao said, they each discovered that Stalin’s and Mao’s actions were far more rational and predictable than their rhetoric. Similarly, what the Iranians say and what they do are quite different.

U.S. vs. Iranian Interests

Consider the American interest. First, it must maintain the flow of oil through the Strait of Hormuz. The United States cannot tolerate interruptions, and that limits the risks it can take. Second, it must try to keep any one power from controlling all of the oil in the Persian Gulf, as that would give such a country too much long-term power within the global system. Third, while the United States is involved in a war with elements of the Sunni Muslim world, it must reduce the forces devoted to that war. Fourth, it must deal with the Iranian problem directly. Europe will go as far as sanctions but no further, while the Russians and Chinese won’t even go that far yet. Fifth, it must prevent an Israeli strike on Iran for the same reasons it must avoid a strike itself, as the day after any Israeli strike will be left to the United States to manage.

Now consider the Iranian interest. First, it must guarantee regime survival. It sees the United States as dangerous and unpredictable. In less than 10 years, it has found itself with American troops on both its eastern and western borders. Second, it must guarantee that Iraq will never again be a threat to Iran. Third, it must increase its authority within the Muslim world against Sunni Muslims, whom it regards as rivals and sometimes as threats.

Now consider the overlaps. The United States is in a war against some (not all) Sunnis. These are Iran’s enemies, too. Iran does not want U.S. troops along its eastern and western borders. In point of fact, the United States does not want this either. The United States does not want any interruption of oil flow through Hormuz. Iran much prefers profiting from those flows to interrupting them. Finally, the Iranians understand that it is the United States alone that is Iran’s existential threat. If Iran can solve the American problem its regime survival is assured. The United States understands, or should, that resurrecting the Iraqi counterweight to Iran is not an option: It is either U.S. forces in Iraq or accepting Iran’s unconstrained role.

Therefore, as an exercise in geopolitical theory, consider the following. Washington’s current options are unacceptable. By redefining the issue in terms of dealing with the consequences of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, there are three areas of mutual interest. First, both powers have serious quarrels with Sunni Islam. Second, both powers want to see a reduction in U.S. forces in the region. Third, both countries have an interest in assuring the flow of oil, one to use the oil, the other to profit from it to increase its regional power.

The strategic problem is, of course, Iranian power in the Persian Gulf. The Chinese model is worth considering here. China issued bellicose rhetoric before and after Nixon’s and Kissinger’s visits. But whatever it did internally, it was not a major risk-taker in its foreign policy. China’s relationship with the United States was of critical importance to China. Beijing fully understood the value of this relationship, and while it might continue to rail about imperialism, it was exceedingly careful not to undermine this core interest.

The major risk of the third strategy is that Iran will overstep its bounds and seek to occupy the oil-producing countries of the Persian Gulf. Certainly, this would be tempting, but it would bring a rapid American intervention. The United States would not block indirect Iranian influence, however, from financial participation in regional projects to more significant roles for the Shia in Arabian states. Washington’s limits for Iranian power are readily defined and enforced when exceeded.

The great losers in the third strategy, of course, would be the Sunnis in the Arabian Peninsula. But Iraq aside, they are incapable of defending themselves, and the United States has no long-term interest in their economic and political relations. So long as the oil flows, and no single power directly controls the entire region, the United States does not have a stake in this issue.

Israel would also be enraged. It sees ongoing American-Iranian hostility as a given. And it wants the United States to eliminate the Iranian nuclear threat. But eliminating this threat is not an option given the risks, so the choice is a nuclear Iran outside some structured relationship with the United States or within it. The choice that Israel might want, a U.S.-Iranian conflict, is unlikely. Israel can no more drive American strategy than can Saudi Arabia.

From the American standpoint, an understanding with Iran would have the advantage of solving an increasingly knotty problem. In the long run, it would also have the advantage of being a self-containing relationship. Turkey is much more powerful than Iran and is emerging from its century-long shell. Its relations with the United States are delicate. The United States would infuriate the Turks by doing this deal, forcing them to become more active faster. They would thus emerge in Iraq as a counterbalance to Iran. But Turkey’s anger at the United States would serve U.S. interests. The Iranian position in Iraq would be temporary, and the United States would not have to break its word as Turkey eventually would eliminate Iranian influence in Iraq.

Ultimately, the greatest shock of such a maneuver on both sides would be political. The U.S.-Soviet agreement shocked Americans deeply, the Soviets less so because Stalin’s pact with Hitler had already stunned them. The Nixon-Mao entente shocked all sides. It was utterly unthinkable at the time, but once people on both sides thought about it, it was manageable.

Such a maneuver would be particularly difficult for U.S. President Barack Obama, as it would be widely interpreted as another example of weakness rather than as a ruthless and cunning move. A military strike would enhance his political standing, while an apparently cynical deal would undermine it. Ahmadinejad could sell such a deal domestically much more easily. In any event, the choices now are a nuclear Iran, extended airstrikes with all their attendant consequences, or something else. This is what something else might look like and how it would fit in with American strategic tradition.

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21,622 views 71 replies
Reply #1 Top

The element that worries me the most is the one I mentionned in earlier discussion. The famous "Only Nixxon can go to China" paradox, where Hawk-like leaders have an easier time striking deals, and Dove-leaders have an easier time doing military actions..

Also, I wanted to link the result a battle simulation that occured in 2002, where a Marine General used asymetrical tactics to cripple the U.S. Navy's task force when he was playing as Iran, showing the vulnerability of the American Navy in the case of a battle. Oh well, I'll find it another day...

 

Reply #2 Top

There is a third strategy, however: Washington can seek to redefine the Iranian question

I think that sums up this adminisitration in one sentence!

But it wont work.  There is a very big difference between China and Iran.  Both are totalitarian, but the chinese are not nutjobs.  I think Obama will take #3, but all he will do is make a fool of himself like Carter did.

Reply #3 Top

Both are totalitarian, but the chinese are not nutjobs.

Well, from STRATFOR's article, Mao did a good job making everybody believe they were. Seriously, "we do not fear Nuclear Warfare, we have hundreds of millions of spare people"?

Doesn't even come close of Iranian President's declarations.

And also, remember the point made about the difference between rethorics and actions. While Iran has made some provocative declarations in the past years (that's an understatement) have they did something that could be considered as irrational?

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 3
Well, from STRATFOR's article, Mao did a good job making everybody believe they were. Seriously, "we do not fear Nuclear Warfare, we have hundreds of millions of spare people"?

Doesn't even come close of Iranian President's declarations.

Please forgive me for not remembering who said this, but the reasoning is that you have less to fear from someone who is overt about weapons than from someone who is covert.  The overt person is blustering and probably not going to use them, just strutting their tail feathers.  While the covert person is hiding something, and thinks it is an asset.  And will use the asset if they think it will no longer be an asset.

China was blustering.  Iran is not.  They BELIEVE in insanity, while Mao was just doing some puffing of his chest.  The chinese are not going to start anything they know they cannot win, regardless of how many bodies they have.  After all, an h-bomb going off in the middle of Utah will only kill a few hundred, maybe a thousand.  An h-bomb going off in Shanghai will kill millions.  Bombs do not count the dead, they just destroy.  Billions dont make a difference when they are clustered together.

While Iran has made some provocative declarations in the past years (that's an understatement) have they did something that could be considered as irrational?

Yes.  Almost every day.  Grabbing an Iraqi Oil field?  There is nothing rational about their leadership (the people are another matter).  72 virgins await the mad mullahs.

Reply #5 Top

Yes. Almost every day. Grabbing an Iraqi Oil field? There is nothing rational about their leadership (the people are another matter). 72 virgins await the mad mullahs.

It was a deliberate and considered move. Stratfor wrote a piece about that very event.. let me pull it..

Here.

A small number of Iranian troops entered Iraq, where they took control of an oil well and raised the Iranian flag Dec. 18. The Iranian-Iraqi border in this region is poorly defined and is contested, with the Iranians claiming this well is in Iranian territory not returned after the Iran-Iraq War. Such incidents have occurred in the past. Given that there were no casualties this time, it therefore would be easy to dismiss this incident, even though at about the same time an Iranian official claimed that Iraq owes Iran about $1 trillion in reparations for starting the Iran-Iraq War.

But what would be fairly trivial at another time and place is not trivial now.

Sending a Message With an Incursion

Multiple sources have reported that Tehran ordered the incident. The Iranian government is aware that Washington has said the end of 2009 was to be the deadline for taking action against Iran over its nuclear program — and that according to a White House source, the United States could extend that deadline to Jan. 15, 2010.

That postponement makes an important point. The United States has treated the Iran crisis as something that will be handled on an American timeline. The way that the Obama administration handled the Afghanistan strategy review suggests it assumes that Washington controls the tempo of events sufficiently that it can make decisions carefully, deliberately and with due reflection. If true, that would mean that adversaries like Iran are purely on the defensive, and either have no counter to American moves or cannot counter the United States until after Washington makes its next move.

For Iran, just to accept that premise puts it at an obvious disadvantage. First, Tehran would have to demonstrate that the tempo of events is not simply in American or Israeli hands. Second, Tehran would have to remind the United States and Israel that Iran has options that it might use regardless of whether the United States chooses sanctions or war. Most important, Iran must show that whatever these options are, they can occur before the United States acts — that Iran has axes of its own, and may not wait for the U.S. axe to fall.

The incursion was shaped to make this point without forcing the United States into precipitous action. The location was politically ambiguous. The force was small. Casualties were avoided. At the same time, it was an action that snapped a lot of people to attention. Oil prices climbed. Baghdad and Washington scrambled to try to figure what was going on, and for a while Washington was clearly at a loss, driving home the fact that the United States doesn’t always respond quickly and efficiently to surprises initiated by the other side.

The event eventually died down, and the Iranians went out of their way to minimize its importance. But two points nevertheless were made. The first was that Iran might not wait for Washington to consider all possible scenarios. The second was that the Iranians know how to raise oil prices. And with that lesson, they reminded the Americans that the Iranians have a degree of control over the economic recovery in the United States.

There has never been any doubt that Iran has options in the event that the United States chooses to strike. Significantly, the Iranians now have driven home that they might initiate a conflict if they assume conflict is inevitable.

U.S. and Iranian Options

Iran’s problem becomes clear when we consider Tehran’s options. These options fall into three groups:

  1. Interdicting the flow of oil through the Strait of Hormuz and Persian Gulf through the use of mines and anti-ship missiles. This would result in a dramatic increase in world oil prices on the Iranian attempt alone and could keep them high if Tehran’s efforts succeeded. The impact on the global economy would be substantial.
  2. Causing massive destabilization in Iraq. The Iranians retain allies and agents in Iraq, which has been experiencing increased violence and destabilization over the past months. As the violence increases and the Americans leave, a close relationship with Iran might be increasingly attractive to Iraqi troops. Given the deployment of American troops, direct attacks in Iraq by Iranian forces are not out of the question. Even if ultimately repulsed, such Iranian incursions could further destabilize Iraq. This would force the Obama administration to reconsider the U.S. withdrawal timetable, potentially affecting Afghanistan.
  3. Use Hezbollah to initiate a conflict with Israel, and as a global tool for terrorist attacks on American and allied targets. Hezbollah is far more sophisticated and effective than al Qaeda was at its height, and would be a formidable threat should Iran choose — and Hezbollah agree — to play this role.

When we look at the three Iranian options, it is clear that the United States would not be able to confine any action against Iran to airstrikes. The United States is extremely good at air campaigns, while it is weak at counterinsurgency. It has massive resources in the region to throw into an air campaign and it can bring more in using carrier strike groups.

But even before hitting Iran’s nuclear facilities, the Americans would have to consider the potential Iranian responses. Washington would have to take three steps. First, Iranian anti-ship missiles and surface vessels — and these vessels could be very small but still able to carry out mine warfare — on the Iranian littoral would have to be destroyed. Second, large formations of Iranian troops along the Iraqi border would have to be attacked, and Iranian assets in Iraq at the very least disrupted. Finally, covert actions against Hezbollah assets — particularly assets outside Lebanon — would have to be neutralized to the extent possible.

This would require massive, coordinated attacks, primarily using airpower and covert forces in a very tight sequence prior to any attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities. Without this, Iran would be in a position to launch the attacks outlined above in response to strikes on its nuclear facilities. Given the nature of the Iranian responses, particularly the mining of the Persian Gulf and Strait of Hormuz, the operations could be carried out quickly and with potentially devastating results to the global economy.

From the Iranian standpoint, Tehran faces a “use-it-or-lose-it” scenario. It cannot wait until the United States initiates hostilities. The worst-case scenario for Iran is waiting for Washington to initiate the conflict.

At the same time, the very complexity of an Iranian attack makes the United States want to think long and hard before attacking Iran. The opportunities for failure are substantial, no matter how well the attack is planned. And the United States can’t allow Israel to start a conflict with Iran alone because Israel lacks the resources to deal with a subsequent Iranian naval interdiction and disruptions in Iraq.

It follows that the United States is interested in a nonmilitary solution to the problem. The ideal solution would be sanctions on gasoline. The United States wants to take as much time as needed to get China and Russia committed to such sanctions.

Iranian Pre-emption

The Iranians signaled last week that they might not choose to be passive if effective sanctions were put in place. Sanctions on gasoline would in fact cripple Iran, so like Japan prior to Pearl Harbor, the option of capitulating to sanctions might be viewed as more risky than a pre-emptive strike. And if sanctions didn’t work, the Iranians would have to assume a military attack is coming next. Since the Iranians wouldn’t know when it would happen, and their retaliatory options might disappear in the first phase of the military operation, they would need to act before such an attack.

The problem is that the Iranians won’t know precisely when that attack will take place. The United States and Israel have long discussed a redline in Iranian nuclear development, which if approached would force an attack on Iran to prevent Tehran from obtaining nuclear weapons. Logically, Iran would seem to have a redline as well, equally poorly designed. At the point when it becomes clear that sanctions are threatening regime survival or that military action is inevitable, Iran must act first, using its military assets before it loses them.

Iran cannot live with either effective sanctions or the type of campaign that the United States would have to launch to take out Iran’s nuclear facilities. The United States can’t live with the consequences of Iranian counteractions to an attack. Even if sanctions were possible, they would leave Iran with the option to do precisely those things Washington cannot tolerate. Therefore, whether the diplomatic or military route is followed, each side has two options. First, the Americans can accept Iran as a nuclear power, or Iran can accept that it must give up its nuclear ambitions. Second, assuming that neither side accepts the first option, each side must take military action before the other side does. The Americans must neutralize counters before the Iranians deploy them. The Iranians must deploy their counters before they are destroyed.

The United States and Iran are both playing for time. Neither side wants to change its position on the nuclear question, although each hopes the other will give in. Moreover, neither side is really confident in its military options. The Americans are not certain that they can both destroy the nuclear facilities and Iranian counters — and if the counters are effective, their consequences could be devastating. The Iranians are not certain that their counters will work effectively, and once failure is established, the Iranians will be wide open for devastating attack. Each side assumes the other understands the risks and will accept the other’s terms for a settlement.

And so each waits, hoping the other side will back down. The events of the past week were designed to show the Americans that Iran is not prepared to back down. More important, they were designed to show that the Iranians also have a redline, that it is as fuzzy as the American redline and that the Americans should be very careful in how far they press, as they might suddenly wake up one morning with their hands full.

The Iranian move is deliberately designed to rattle U.S. President Barack Obama. He has shown a decision-making style that assumes that he is not under time pressure to make decisions. It is not clear to anyone what his decision-making style in a crisis will look like. Though not a prime consideration from the Iranian point of view, putting Obama in a position where he is psychologically unprepared for decisions in the timeframe they need to be made in is certainly an added benefit. Iran, of course, doesn’t know how effectively he might respond, but his approach to Afghanistan gives them another incentive to act sooner than later.

There are some parallels here to the nuclear warfare theory, in which each side faces mutual assured destruction. The problem here is that each side does not face destruction, but pain. And here, pre-emptive strikes are not guaranteed to produce anything. It is the vast unknowns that make this affair so dangerous, and at any moment, one side or the other might decide they can wait no longer.

Doesn't seems like a random act of crazyness to me. Iranian leadership is more sane than you are ready to accept, methink. It's easy to depict the other side as shit crazy for propaganda purpose. What is the alternative, you think? Attack?

Reply #6 Top

I never said it was not deliberate, but not crazy?  I don't have to light a match in a gas tank to understand the fumes may explode.  As it was, nothing happened. But that was not a given.  It was crazy.  As are they.

Reply #7 Top

It was crazy. As are they.

Stop demonizing and start thinking. You don't become leader of a country, specially  not a totalitarian country with no royal families, by being a crazy irrational man. You don't reach high positions in these kind of administration by acting irrational.

These people are clever, dangerous, and rational. They don't go and blow themselves up for the fun of it, not even for a freaking paradise. They have too much to loose.

Reply #8 Top

The problems with the third option are that firstly you're hoping they're lying - that they aren't crazy. You're also hoping that Israel wouldn't go ahead with an attack, and of course the action itself would be political suicide - if Obama did this, he'd be finished. It wouldn't matter if it worked, or if it was a good idea, there's just no way I could see it doing anything other than costing a lot of votes, and since almost every politician is interested in being reelected, that acts as a major disincentive.

So although it does give another option, I'd say it's possibly even worse than the alternatives (the first one, diplomacy, just hopes that they're not crazy)

Reply #9 Top

So although it does give another option, I'd say it's possibly even worse than the alternatives (the first one, diplomacy, just hopes that they're not crazy)

So, you rate the three options:

1) Diplomatic/economical sanctions

2) Deal

3) Warfare

In term of desirability, with open conflict rating lowest? I kinda agree to this. But the thing is, we still have to succeed on sanctions for work out. the USA can handle China on their own, but we cannot handle Russia.. and Russia has no desire to let itself by handled. They would win big if conflict erupts in the Persian Gulf.

I really find sad that conservatives would call Obama "weak" by striking a deal with Iran. I mean.. think about it: it's the FREAKIEST MOST DANGEROUS OPTION FOR HIM. And it's also the best for America on the short/mid term, compared to a military strikes that would cost billion dollars, wipe all the efforts you have achieved in Iraq and rise the oil price to 150$ the barrel.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 7

It was crazy. As are they.
Stop demonizing and start thinking. You don't become leader of a country, specially  not a totalitarian country with no royal families, by being a crazy irrational man. You don't reach high positions in these kind of administration by acting irrational.

These people are clever, dangerous, and rational. They don't go and blow themselves up for the fun of it, not even for a freaking paradise. They have too much to loose.

I do love these discussions with you.  I would agree with you, in a normal place.  But Iran is a theocracy.  And if I am not mistaken, you are a-religious.  So if you think of it that way, you can then see my point (maybe not agree, but understand).  These loons are not thinking this world, but the next, and for that, they will do anything to purify the people.  Clever?  I am sure some are (Amadenijad surely is, although not smart)..  But again, clever and crazy are not mutually exclusive.  I do not fear them as I fear heights.  I simply do not trust them to be rational, and that is crazy.

In a crazy world, only the craziest can rise to power.

Reply #11 Top

I do love these discussions with you. I would agree with you, in a normal place. But Iran is a theocracy

Religious leaders are very often the most pragmatic people in their religion. They have to manoeuver politics, charisma and establishments to be able to get into power. To be the Supreme Leader of Iran doesn't mean merely to be a "good religious man" (that's to be an Ayattolah). You gotta be put there by the clerical establishment, and.. well, many of these people are also rationals.

When power is controlled by a social cast (cast example: Nobility, clergy, burghers, military), that cast rarely acts irrationally. the pragmatic peoples inside of it will rise at the top, by rallying people around them. Crazies are usually tools to be used by the pragmatics, or mere rivals.

The problem with crazies is that they seldom compromise, because they believe they are right about every freaking thing, so they will rarely make good leader (except if non-crazies run the show behind their back, see Lenin/Stalin relationships).

So.. yhea. I think the religious leadership of Iran isn't dominated by a bunch of crazies. They will do what they have to preserve their power base. They might despise the ultraconservative faction represented by the actual president, as they see their power base slip from them toward him. They don't want to loose what they have, and that desire has set their courses of action in the past years (destabilising USA's efforts in Iraq chief among them).

For the record, I don't think the German leadership during WW2 was that crazy. If they had been, the wouldn't  have succeeded as well as they did initially. Their worst moments came at the end, when they had little to no options left against the onslaught they have provoked on them. Individual leaders might be crazy, but a leader doesn't govern in the void. He has people supporting him for various reasons. Often, in the case of a crazy leader, it's with a very strong Grey Eminence. Thu, leadership still remains pragmatic.

So.. I end my argument by saying that Iran isn't different from any other countries. A crazy couldn't reach the top. Someone at the top turning crazy wouldn't last long there. There is little to no respect for the rules established about who should  be in power. A weak Supreme Leader would be replaced extremely quickly by his rivals.

Reply #12 Top

I agree with most of your last post.  WWII Germany was not run by crazies (just a meglomaniac), and religious leaders are usually crazy.  And yes to the USSR.  But I guess we will just disagree on Iran.  Their pell Mell effort to get the bomb, when there is no compelling reason for it (no one is threatening them - they are the biggest bully in their pond) indicates a detachment from reality that is mostly found in crazies.  And make no mistake, the Ayatollahs are running the show, not the secular faux government.  The Ayatollahs have the "elite" troops that are basically running everything.  call them what you will, but the reality is they are simply the "religious police".

I have heard so many times about the mass hysteria of the left in America about the religious right - and should they gain control.  I think one of the prime reasons Bush was hated so much was he was seen as part of the religious right.  Putting aside whether he was or was not, I do understand their fear (just felt we had too many checks and balances for it to come about).  And their fear is magnified by Iran.  If nothing else, it is a good example of their fear becoming a reality.

Reply #13 Top

I have heard so many times about the mass hysteria of the left in America about the religious right - and should they gain control. I think one of the prime reasons Bush was hated so much was he was seen as part of the religious right. Putting aside whether he was or was not, I do understand their fear (just felt we had too many checks and balances for it to come about). And their fear is magnified by Iran. If nothing else, it is a good example of their fear becoming a reality.

You know want is funny Doc? The US left's contempt for the "religious right" (they seem to overlook the religious left, which encompasses large blocks of their black and hispanic supporters) yet they are so open to the views of religious zealots throughout the world. Maybe their issue is just with Christianity, they seem to want to destroy it, I don't know, I can't speak for the left. I do believe this is the lefts problem: they serve too many masters, so in turn satisfy none. 

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Nitro, reply 13

You know want is funny Doc? The US left's contempt for the "religious right" (they seem to overlook the religious left, which encompasses large blocks of their black and hispanic supporters) yet they are so open to the views of religious zealots throughout the world. Maybe their issue is just with Christianity, they seem to want to destroy it, I don't know, I can't speak for the left. I do believe this is the lefts problem: they serve too many masters, so in turn satisfy none. 

1: Actually I think blacks and hispanics are more akin to the religious right in their faith, they just vote for democrats out of the fear the left always runs during campaigns.

2: I agree with you about their fear of Christianity.  But I think that is due to the predominant nature of America.  Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists are not a threat to them because they just do not have the constituency.  I think in the final analysis, almost all religions scare them when practiced close to home because they offer people absolutes, and that is an anathema to the left.  Their core is based upon situational ethics.  it is kind of the too many masters, but more of the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality.

Reply #15 Top

Their pell Mell effort to get the bomb, when there is no compelling reason for it (no one is threatening them - they are the biggest bully in their pond) indicates a detachment from reality that is mostly found in crazies

If it wasn't for that part of your argument, I would agree. But just look at Iran's situation for the moment. I strongly disagree that they have no reason to feel threatened. They are sorrounded by Israel, Turkey, Russia and Pakistan, and the american-allied arabic gulf states. Until 2003, they also had to content with Iraq, and they feel about the USA the same way you feel about them. The USA will always be a big danger for them (perceived, at the very least. Whether they really are, in capability or intent is irrelevant).

Iran has no real ally to speak of, except when they are the senior partner that they support (as you say, they are the big fish of the pond. But it's a freakishly small pond). They know Russia could flush them the moment they aren't convenient for them anymore. Forcing to get the nuclear weapon can help them get out of the current deadlock they are trapped in.

In the past 7 years, they haven't really got anywhere. Minor support to some militas against Israel or the US in foreign countries, but these aren't even close to achieving any influencial powers. And before that, they were locked in a power balance with Iraq, with their influence stopped. Their very existence has been very cleverly confined into a loosing outcome by the USA and its allies in the region. Whatever Iran has achieved is merely what they can afford to scrap together, and won't have any consequence on the long run.

Running for the nuke is a gambit. They have means to make everyone pay if one try to stop them. Either they achieve security be developping the nuke and securing that advantage forever (nuke in the ormuz strait? omg), or they get ennough out of a deal to get out of the loosing situation they have been stuck in the past 30 years. And to be honest, I am sure many people in Iran's power structure (not the majority) would be happy to stop the antagonism between the USA and them, as it prevents them from any real influence in the region.

Oh, and about who holds the real power. Yhea, I know that the secular governement is not running the show, but it doesn't mean they are irrelevant. They may have supporters among the militaries, or somes of the clerics. Or some other members of the population. The clergy and their republican guard aren't the sole owner of power in Iran, they are just the top dogs for now, and they have to do their best to make sure no other dog can rival them.

Reply #16 Top

They are sorrounded by Israel, Turkey, Russia and Pakistan, and the american-allied arabic gulf states.

Uh, philosophically?  because they are not geographically.  They are surrounded by Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Pakistan and some FORMER members of the USSR, not Russia or Israel.  Pakistan is too wrapped up with India to worry about them (and has not shown a history of animosity in that direction in any case).  Turkey may be a mild threat due to the Kurds issue, but they seem to want to cooperate on them not fight on them.  And of course the rest have more problems within their borders than you can shake a stick at.

if you expand their sphere of influence - as they seem to want to do, then you would run into the other players.  But that is their fault, not a situation of others coming to them.  So again, they are going to get the bomb, but not because they need it for defense. They need it to spread their craziness.  They want to make sure everyone is as crazy as them.  No one is threatening them now, or will be in the foreseeable future.

but these aren't even close to achieving any influencial powers.

I think that is part of what drives them to insanity.  They want it, but like you say, no one is buying their snake oil.

Running for the nuke is a gambit. They have means to make everyone pay if one try to stop them. Either they achieve security be developping the nuke and securing that advantage forever (nuke in the ormuz strait? omg), or they get ennough out of a deal to get out of the loosing situation they have been stuck in the past 30 years. And to be honest, I am sure many people in Iran's power structure (not the majority) would be happy to stop the antagonism between the USA and them, as it prevents them from any real influence in the region.

Here is the nut of your response and I do agree partially.  But I guess we disagree on what that means.  To you it means they have security (they think so), but to me it means the crazies finally have a vehicle to increase their brand of Islam.  And that is what they want.  And that is why I think they would be the first to use nuclear weapons (out of all the countries that have them now).  There is a reason no one has used it since 1945.  The demonstration was enough.  Iran knows that and wants its own demonstration, not realizing that perhaps now it would not stop with one.

That is why I fear what they will do.  They are not rational in that regard.

Reply #17 Top

They are surrounded by Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Pakistan and some FORMER members of the USSR, not Russia or Israel.

But Israel still can be a menace to them, as Israel still raises the menace of doing strikes against them from time to time (wether these are empty threats is, again, irrelevant). The Iran-Israel antagonism is very vivid. And Israel is a nuclear power, which means they are a big threath to Iran.

Afghanistan was a proxy of Pakistan until recently. Pakistan is, again, a nuclear power which holds (or held) influence in the region. Pakistan is, indeed, more focused on India, but some of the most extremist branches of the Sunn'i sect has their roots in these countries (Afghan & Paki), which can be perceived as a treath by Iran.

Russia is still a big player in the region, as they hold influence over ex members of the USSR (some more than others, a.k.a. Georgia). Russia can be quite a pain if Iran antagonise them. Turkey is the one gaining influence right  now in the region. And.. well.. the USA. Never forget the treath represented by the USA.

I think that is part of what drives them to insanity. They want it, but like you say, no one is buying their snake oil.

This is a very subjective argument. I am sorry, but the way I see it, you made the jugement call that Iran's leadership is crazy and irrational, and try to justify it as much as possible. Iran is desperate to get free of America's deadlock they have been in the past 30 years, but desperate doesn't mean crazy. Just more willing to take risks.

Willingless to take risks isn't an act of irrationality. That what drove the USA to be as powerful as they are today. Most of the geopolitical calls America's leadership made over the years wasn't always the safest choice, but it proved to be the best.

Here is the nut of your response and I do agree partially. But I guess we disagree on what that means. To you it means they have security (they think so), but to me it means the crazies finally have a vehicle to increase their brand of Islam. And that is what they want. And that is why I think they would be the first to use nuclear weapons (out of all the countries that have them now). There is a reason no one has used it since 1945. The demonstration was enough. Iran knows that and wants its own demonstration, not realizing that perhaps now it would not stop with one.

While you may be right about them willing to "impose their brand of islam", I don't think them acquiring the nuclear weapon will allow them to do so. They already have achieved that kind of conversion in the past 30 years, but it sadly hasn't got them any geopolitical influence past Syria and Hizbullah. Acquiring a nuke won't wash open the doors of the neighbouring rivals to their missionnaries, and I don't think anyone in Iran's leadership fancy it actually happen.

Acquiring nukes has only 1 effect: security regarding hypothetical full-scale invasion. They don't gain you any offensive influence, nor do you get more allies because you have the nuke. (initial post-WW2's circumstances were different than today). Israel, Pakistan or India are not more influencial countries today because they have nuclear weaponry, but they sure feel more secured about potential military rival doing a full-scale invasion on them.

If anything, Iran's leadership knows that letting the crazies in their country get their hand on a nuke would doom them, so they would everything in their power to prevent it. It's about the same dynamic as in Pakistan.

I think they are very rational people, dealing with an irrational margin of the population that is present in every freaking country. Sometimes, that margin is more powerful or vocal, but it doesn't mean they are running the place.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 17
But Israel still can be a menace to them, as Israel still raises the menace of doing strikes against them from time to time (wether these are empty threats is, again, irrelevant). The Iran-Israel antagonism is very vivid. And Israel is a nuclear power, which means they are a big threath to Iran.

I think that makes great fodder for the Muslim PR machine, but I have yet to see Israel initiate a war,   I have seen them aggressively wage them once initated.  On an intellectual level, the secular part of Iran knows that, but of course to keep the people in line, they have to maintain the illusion that Israel is about to attack at any moment.  the Mullahs believe the latter, and that is what scary.  Most government's bluster for their own sake while privately admitting the truth.  The controllers in Iran think the truth is the bluster.

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 17
Russia is still a big player in the region, as they hold influence over ex members of the USSR (some more than others, a.k.a. Georgia). Russia can be quite a pain if Iran antagonise them. Turkey is the one gaining influence right  now in the region. And.. well.. the USA. Never forget the treath represented by the USA.

No, and Iran will use the USA as the great satan for a long time.  As indicated above, the secular side knows the truth, but will privately admit the US is not a problem.  The mullahs believe the hype.  But in any case, nuclear weapons would not be a deterent to the USA as they cant hit us, but we can turn them into glass.  NK has a greater chance of attacking America.

But on the Russia side, right now, they are Iran's best friend (I know, countries do not have friends, just commonality of goals).  And Russia has lost a lot of influence among their former satellites.  And that is one of the main reasons they are so atagonistic towards the US.  They see themselves surrounded by McDonalds.

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 17
I think that is part of what drives them to insanity. They want it, but like you say, no one is buying their snake oil. This is a very subjective argument. I am sorry, but the way I see it, you made the jugement call that Iran's leadership is crazy and irrational, and try to justify it as much as possible. Iran is desperate to get free of America's deadlock they have been in the past 30 years, but desperate doesn't mean crazy. Just more willing to take risks.

I agree, normally desperate is not crazy.  But there is more that makes me believe they are (and less that makes me think there is any sanity left in the ruling mullahs).

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 17
Willingless to take risks isn't an act of irrationality. That what drove the USA to be as powerful as they are today. Most of the geopolitical calls America's leadership made over the years wasn't always the safest choice, but it proved to be the best.

Betting the farm on a low odds bet is.  And that is what they are doing.

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 17
If anything, Iran's leadership knows that letting the crazies in their country get their hand on a nuke would doom them, so they would everything in their power to prevent it. It's about the same dynamic as in Pakistan.

Some in Iran do know this, but I do not think it is the leaders.  The secular leaders are deluding themselves (and hence why they would agree to be puppets anyway) and the Mullahs just plain do not think of it in those terms.  They see an Allah weapon that is useless if not used, and so they will.  Could the secular side stop them in time?  Doubtful and hence my trepidation at them having it.

When I say "Iran" I do not mean that the whole country or all the people are crazy.  Most are not, but I do beleive the mad mullahs are.  And they can and will do anything to bring about their version of heaven on earth, regardless of the temperature.  Not all Mullahs are that mad, but to make it to the top in Iran, you have to be.

Reply #19 Top

I think that makes great fodder for the Muslim PR machine, but I have yet to see Israel initiate a war, I have seen them aggressively wage them once initated. On an intellectual level, the secular part of Iran knows that, but of course to keep the people in line, they have to maintain the illusion that Israel is about to attack at any moment. the Mullahs believe the latter, and that is what scary. Most government's bluster for their own sake while privately admitting the truth. The controllers in Iran think the truth is the bluster.

Oh, you are very right. But even if Israel had all the good intention in the world, these people still would believe it to be a threat. Israel has done military strikes on targets whenever it felt threatened itself, wether or not the threat was justified. They stroke Syria in the past, why wouldn't they strike Iran?

But I don't believe Israel is an existential treath to Iran. Nor do I believe Iran is an existential treath to Israel. However, it is convenient for both of them to convince us of their respective victimisation. Israel isn't a country free of blusters potentials, and their leadership is also far from admiting they are wrong.

No, and Iran will use the USA as the great satan for a long time. As indicated above, the secular side knows the truth, but will privately admit the US is not a problem. The mullahs believe the hype. But in any case, nuclear weapons would not be a deterent to the USA as they cant hit us, but we can turn them into glass. NK has a greater chance of attacking America.

Exactly. So think about it for one second, wouldn't it strike Iran's leadership paradigm that if, at the same time, you strike a deal with the U.S., then you don't need the nuclear weapon anymore?

If the USA are the main danger for Iran's leadership, then any kind of support from the USA to Iran would allow them to stop being afraid about the USA, and the reason of pushing toward the nuke would simply lessen to an un-economical level. They could shift the ressources toward internal stability without loosing face.

I think "the great Satan" is just rethoric used to bolster their population. But just like China at the time, it's just that: rethorics. Politicians are politicians, wherever they live. What they say and what they think are 2 things.

But on the Russia side, right now, they are Iran's best friend (I know, countries do not have friends, just commonality of goals). And Russia has lost a lot of influence among their former satellites. And that is one of the main reasons they are so atagonistic towards the US. They see themselves surrounded by McDonalds.

Nah. Russia's best friend right now are Belaruss and Ukraine. Not that they have any choice in the matter... }:)

I agree, normally desperate is not crazy. But there is more that makes me believe they are (and less that makes me think there is any sanity left in the ruling mullahs).


Betting the farm on a low odds bet is. And that is what they are doing.

Stop thinking "religious leader", start thinking "politician". Is the pope a religious fanatic when you think about it one second? Nah. Popes always have been politicians acting rationnally for their own interests, and the Church's interest. Acts of religious fervors are merely tools to be channeled by this kind of leadership into useful end, but the head is rarely religiously nut.

Not all Mullahs are that mad, but to make it to the top in Iran, you have to be.

Quite the opposite. The maddest Mullahs must be very popular street mullahs that never get close to real power. The higher you go, the sanest you find them.

Reply #20 Top

Israel isn't a country free of blusters potentials, and their leadership is also far from admiting they are wrong.

That is true of any nation - to outsiders.  And I agree with the previous parts of the section.

If the USA are the main danger for Iran's leadership, then any kind of support from the USA to Iran would allow them to stop being afraid about the USA, and the reason of pushing toward the nuke would simply lessen to an un-economical level. They could shift the ressources toward internal stability without loosing face.

That is common sense, but not a reality.  The truth is the USA tried to become friendly with Iran many times, and the only thing it got them was a slap in the face.  Hell, Carter facilitated the over throw of the shaw!  And for that, we got 444 days of captivity.  This just proves my point.  A rational country would establish a France/America relationship (rhetorical animosity with back room cooperation).  Iran is not rational (the leadership).

Stop thinking "religious leader", start thinking "politician". Is the pope a religious fanatic when you think about it one second? Nah. Popes always have been politicians acting rationnally for their own interests, and the Church's interest. Acts of religious fervors are merely tools to be channeled by this kind of leadership into useful end, but the head is rarely religiously nut.

I would love to. and perhaps in time, Iran can overthrow the mullahs.  But until they do, you cannot think of Iran without thinking religion.

As for the pope, you know I am RCC.  Yet when the popes had the power (the HRE period), they were as despotic as any other banana republic dictator.  Goes to the "Power Corrupts and absolute power....." cliche.  I think it is true.  I would love to beleive (and I do believe the crop of popes in the last 200 years were this way) that they would never be like the Mullahs.  But then we did have the Dark Ages.  So the Popes are politicians (they do run a state), but they are leaders of the faith first.  That gets them into trouble with people who want them to be politicians first.  They cant be.  In that respect, they are like the mad mullahs.  The difference is the Popes are preaching love and forgiveness, and so their politics reflect that.  The Mullahs have subverted islam and are just preaching hate and death, and so their politics reflect that.

Just remember the one teaching of Christ (since even the mad mullahs believe he was a proffet).  Render unto caesar.....

He never thought religion should run the world, just one's faith.  It is the imperfect that followed him that decided they had some great strength in the believers and to use that for power gains.

Quite the opposite. The maddest Mullahs must be very popular street mullahs that never get close to real power. The higher you go, the sanest you find them.

I will throw out this bone for you.  At one time, in order to learn, I am sure they were normal people.  However hate is one of the strongest emotions, and it does corrupt the holder.  To get where they are, they had to learn (or just cultivate an existing) hate.  The higher they rose, the more they had to feed that hate to get up there.  And it eventually made them detached from reality.  They are crazy.  They Believe their hate now (instead of using it for gain). And that is what makes them so dangerous.

Reply #21 Top

As for the pope, you know I am RCC

I did not, to be honest. And if I had a faith denomination, it would be RCC too, as most of the French-canadians.

But it's the same. I think religious leaders, when reaching the top, are still politicians. They, off course, have to deal in a different environment than the secular politicians. They have to deal with the religious rethorics, and be inspiring to their faithfuls.

They cannot merely act like a secular politican would, but that doesn't make them any less politicians. You have mafiosi politicians, you have religious politicians, corporate-level politicians, and country-level politicians. The rules and obligations they have to run by is defined by the system they try to control.

So.. they cannot act like your common secular politicians, and that might put them in trouble. But then again, they are not blind religious fanatics. Even if they believe things that might be considered irrational, at heart, they are still rational politicians who have to do their best to secure what they control.

Many jews are still angry at Pius XII for his deals with the Nazis during the Nazi era, but Pius XII had to secure the churches and catholic people in France and Germany. Maybe it wasn't the best "moral stance" to take, but it was the right choice.

Reply #22 Top

What I find ironic about our discussion is that we are basically taking polar views from our normal stances.  I was aware you were a-religious, but raised RCC (you mentioned it before).  So by stereotype, you should be more anti-religious.  And of course I am pro-religious, but in this case taking a stance against religion.  I know it is not religion over all, just this aspect of it, but it is amusing.

Your last statement made me think of that, and I will concede Pope Pius XII.  But then Pope John Paul II was the opposite.  He did not compromise regardless of the heat he got.  Which is good in my eyes for 2 reasons.  One is that the leaders of religion should be about religion and not politics, and 2 is that they lead in faith, not in daily lives (no power over us).  if not for the second item, the Mullahs or Iran would not phase me in the least.  It is the second that has me worried about them, and yes, saying they are crazy.

Reply #23 Top

What I find ironic about our discussion is that we are basically taking polar views from our normal stances. I was aware you were a-religious, but raised RCC (you mentioned it before). So by stereotype, you should be more anti-religious. And of course I am pro-religious, but in this case taking a stance against religion. I know it is not religion over all, just this aspect of it, but it is amusing.

I am against religious people telling me what is right and what isn't in my society, by using outdated morality that origins in reasons which are not valid anymore. The initial taboo against pork by the Jews and Muslims made sense in the environment at the time, due to diseases and the like, but with modern technology and techniques, pork is a very safe meat to eat. The danger of infection and disease is spread over all kind of food, and it's not about which food you are eating more than how you keep it preserved. Kosher and Halal food is as bad for your health as "inpure" food, in the same circumstances.

Many other morality stance that religious people want to impose on society might have been useful in another time, but they are not anymore due to society and circumstances evolving. Thu, why not also evolve our society too?

Not to forget that many religious leaders seems to be deep hypocrits about many things, which put them in the "untrustworthy" side of my personal scale of trustworthyness when it comes to social engineering.

But we are talking geopolitics, and I believe religious leaders can be very sane when it comes to that :-)

But then Pope John Paul II was the opposite. He did not compromise regardless of the heat he got.

But John Paul II was not ruling in a time when he needed to make compromise. His position, church and other elements were secured, so he could afford taking bold moves that would benefit him and the church, even if they were risky.

Many people claim that the USA is reckless in the practice in their foreign policy. It is usually right, but it's not necessarely a bad thing. The USA, due to its incredible strategic depth, has a lot of margin of error available when it takes decision and can afford being risky (and sometimes clumsy). Other countries, like South Korea for example, can't. They must play the safe game.

Pius XII was living in a time where he could not afford to make a mistake, thus was forced to compromise. Iranian leaders have had some security about their own situation for years, but the more it progress, the more they see the dead-end ahead, and they think the nuclear weapon will allow to break free of the status quo.

On the other hand, the Status Quo was broken in 2003 by the USA by destroying Iraq's power, and it changed everything. So.. I'd guess that right now would be a good time for most parties involved to change dynamics. I guess Iran hoped it could project viable influence once Iraq is out of the equation, and they were proven wrong as the USA are doing everything in their power to stop them. They might be more ready now to deal with alternatives than they ever were.

Reply #24 Top

But John Paul II was not ruling in a time when he needed to make compromise. His position, church and other elements were secured, so he could afford taking bold moves that would benefit him and the church, even if they were risky.

He was not born as pope either.  He grew up during the war and subsequent Cold War.

But irregardless, I know the history, I just cannot condone it.  I do not believe that Pope Pius XII had to compromise.  Perhaps inthe short term the Nazis would have occupied the Holy See, but that is sometimes the price to pay.  After all, the history of the Church was founded on persecution.  It is filled with Martyrs, and for good reason.  Being religious leaders sometimes exacts a heavy penalty.  Some will say that I do not have the cojones to withstand something like the third reich.  But then I have not elevated myself to a position of authority over a religious faith.  I can remain Catholic without having to worry about some bigot burning down my house. 

But I am goign to much into a religious discussion here, so I will stop.  I do understand your point, I just do not agree with it.

Reply #25 Top

After all, the history of the Church was founded on persecution. It is filled with Martyrs, and for good reason.

Aye. But who are these martyrs?

They were usually poor people who had real faith. Or not poor, but certainly not in any real position of influencial authority in the society. Please notice that the moment the Church became powerful and influential, it's martyrs have been the people at the bottom ladder than the top.

People who achieve at the top of a power structure are usually balancing politics and faith to reach where they are, and thu govern as such. The leaders of Iran are no different.