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Ugly children

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Ugly children

from JoeUser Forums

So this week the dynasties got in.  To skip to the good part, your sovereign gets married and has children. Eventually, those children grow up and you can then arrange marriages with them with other sovereigns. Your children, in turn, will have children of their own.  And that’s where things got interesting…or more specifically: ugly.

For today’s code review, we were looking at the algorithms being used to produce off-spring.  We don’t want them to be just random but rather have the traits of their parents in interesting ways – both from a stats point and cosmetically.  To see how far we could take things, I had my daughter marry the son of an Urxen sovereign (one of the races of the Fallen).  Urxen look a lot like goblins.

Well, my beautiful daughter and the Urxen prince had a child.  And let me just say, there are things you cannot unsee.  A half-man, half-urxen is something that can’t be unseen.

So if you end up deciding to marry your children off to other factions, take a good look at their family first lest your grandchildren look like that half-human half-alien from the last Alien movie.

128,150 views 72 replies
Reply #51 from Elemental Forums Top

It seems like it's hard to get traits to really carry over unless you make a lot of different slots for areas of the face.  Crusader Kings seemed to do foreheads, chins, and noses.

Crusader kings did a pretty decent job of making people look different, there were always just too many people to even try and recognize each one individually. I hope that Elemental can pull it off so that we can recognize a person just by their picture, no matter how many people there are in the game. That would be nice. I'm hoping for a pretty large number of people from game to game, but def not anything like Crusader Kings numbers, that was just too much and for me at least it ruined the immersion. Also, I hope we get to see our family members age in a realistic manner, it always peeved me when my son turned of age (was it 16?) in CK and he had a full beard and looked older than myself ;P  

Overall, it's good to hear there is a generator based on traits, it gives me hope that we will have recognizable characters. I just hope it provides enough variety. And unlike many of the comments I'm seeing here, I don't have the urge to make ugly people ^_^  I want my daughters to be beautiful, and my princes to be handsome.. I sure hope I don't have to marry them off to those Urxen scum to get them to stop attacking me :X  Oh well, i'll just have to shun my ugly grandchildren... }:)  

Reply #52 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm wondering if any offspring with special powers would emerge from this breeding programs. Can you say "Kwisatz Haderach"? ;)

Seriously though, I'm really very curious in what regards the breeding thingy will result other than appearance...

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Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

I wonder...

"Congratulations! Your daughter was born with the Trait: Dangerous Beauty*. Don't mind that her poligonal appearence is uglier than sin due to mixing human genes with slime genes**. Looks doesn't matter, traits do. And her inner beauty if Dangerous Beauty.;P "

* as in truly sexy and indecent way.

** Some quests have... unexpected consequences.

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

Hehe, as a former D&D player I'd say:"Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder." :D

But since ideas are out for a Sword of Truth Mod why not let her have Confessor powers too. :)

 

Seriously though, I was more thinking in terms of... I don't know... leadership bonuses or morale bonuses or research bonuses for death magic if he's a real badass or such.

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

cross breeding... it's always beena  problem as it not?  LOL

 

I just want to know what happens if you marry your cousin...  I want my line pure wink

 

Reply #56 from Demigod Forums Top

I can already see my Elemental Eugenics Enterprise taking shape...

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

If fallen are magicly twisted humans in essence, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to cross-breed with men, geneticly they could be rather close. Morphological differences don't necassarily denote genetic incompatability. Look at the variety of dog phenotypes that can be interbreed.

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Solam, reply 55
I just want to know what happens if you marry your cousin...  I want my line pure wink

Reply #59 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting econundrum1, reply 57
If fallen are magicly twisted humans in essence, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to cross-breed with men, geneticly they could be rather close. Morphological differences don't necassarily denote genetic incompatability. Look at the variety of dog phenotypes that can be interbreed.

It is hard to apply classic genetics when you are in a world of magic and magical manipulation. Genetics imply in evolution and evolution imply in the complete logical destruction of all pre-made creatures and whatnot. That aside, you also incur in the problem of turning magic into some sort of deus ex machina for medieval biotechnology - "Hey, lemme use this spell to grow a steel skin in this lineage of Skorgs" - and in the background, dozens of genes are created out of thin air to allow cells to bioaccumulate iron and carbon nanoparticles in orderly fashion on the outer epithelium. Such changes would promptly generate a reproductive barrier. Promptly. Finally, chimps and man are rather close, so were we close to our cousins of the largely extinct Homo genus. That doesn't mean crossbreds between man and chimp or man and Homo neanderthalensis were/are/will be possible. Minor, stupid changes can create reproductive barriers. And tackling your example, even dogs aren't all compatible with each other. Their breeding distribution resembles a horseshoe, with the extremes being unable to reproduce between themselves.

Summing up, while it is quite possible that if you apply genetics you can end up with a justification for crossbreds assuming 'races' do have a genetic compatibility - no matter how improbable that would be seeing the large differences between one another - you are still exposing yourself to the side-effects of introducing so realistic a concept in a unrealistic world. Making it even more simple: it won't be logical.

Reply #60 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't know if it has been stated before Frogboy, but do Sions die off from old age or battles or whatnot? Or do they live on forever? Is it very well that we could have generations and generations of children born off the original Sions of the Sovereign? After a time is it impossible for the soverign to mate? Thinking about it, it would be weird to have great great great grandchildren and then sire a new son.

Reply #61 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, I imagine your wife will die and then you can either forget about new children or seek another wife.

Reply #62 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, I imagine your wife will die and then you can either forget about new children or seek another wife.
Pretty much. I think the idea is that Scions are mortal just like everybody else. In fact, it seems to me that in this game agelessness comes not so much from the person's physical self (hereditary, untransferrable, etc), as it does from circumstances largely out of their control (exposure to the Shards, blessing of the Titans, that sort of thing. Think Eragon after the elves make him into a true Rider.)

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Finneglot, reply 59


It is hard to apply classic genetics when you are in a world of magic and magical manipulation. Genetics imply in evolution and evolution imply in the complete logical destruction of all pre-made creatures and whatnot. That aside, you also incur in the problem of turning magic into some sort of deus ex machina for medieval biotechnology - "Hey, lemme use this spell to grow a steel skin in this lineage of Skorgs" - and in the background, dozens of genes are created out of thin air to allow cells to bioaccumulate iron and carbon nanoparticles in orderly fashion on the outer epithelium. Such changes would promptly generate a reproductive barrier. Promptly. Finally, chimps and man are rather close, so were we close to our cousins of the largely extinct Homo genus. That doesn't mean crossbreds between man and chimp or man and Homo neanderthalensis were/are/will be possible. Minor, stupid changes can create reproductive barriers. And tackling your example, even dogs aren't all compatible with each other. Their breeding distribution resembles a horseshoe, with the extremes being unable to reproduce between themselves.

Summing up, while it is quite possible that if you apply genetics you can end up with a justification for crossbreds assuming 'races' do have a genetic compatibility - no matter how improbable that would be seeing the large differences between one another - you are still exposing yourself to the side-effects of introducing so realistic a concept in a unrealistic world. Making it even more simple: it won't be logical.

I agree up to a point that there is little point trying to apply genetics to a fantasy world, however my point was that for those who wish to a pug looks more different from a Grey hound, and a Great Dane for example than a man does from a chimp. But all three dog types can be interbred.

As an Aside if a human & chimp / can or cant be interbred has never been fully answered a Russian scientist did try some experiments but since his work was considered highly unethical and stopped no definative results are available, it's not something that's been tried often (at least not openly for obvious reasons). However othordox thinking is that we are not similar enough geneticly. Would you recognise a human/chimp hybrid if one existed?

Interestingly dogs show an amazingly wide range of Phenotypical variation while maintaining genetic compatability.

You could also argue in a magical world that magic did not alter the genetics at all simply distorted the way that it was expressed and that this distortion is passed on by means other than the genetic code.

Anyway I tend to agree any use of genetics in a universe in which magic exists is speculative, hell men in the world of elemental may not even have DNA for all we know.

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, I imagine your wife will die and then you can either forget about new children or seek another wife.

Pretty much. I think the idea is that Scions are mortal just like everybody else. In fact, it seems to me that in this game agelessness comes not so much from the person's physical self (hereditary, untransferrable, etc), as it does from circumstances largely out of their control (exposure to the Shards, blessing of the Titans, that sort of thing. Think Eragon after the elves make him into a true Rider.)

Well, in another dev journal Frogboy stated that the Channelers aren't really immortal (story-wise) but that they live for hundreds of years but for the game they just call it "immortal". So I wonder how quickly our children and wives will die in game? I mean if a game takes place over 200 game years thats like what, 6 generations maybe? (I'm not wonderful in the math department) In a magical society people might even live longer. So will we be getting married like twice or will it be more like six times per game? I mean, Frogboy has also stated that you will be able to have children "for a little while" so you might not get the opportunity to marry over and over except for relation boosters rather than making more children.

And I agree with the exposure thing Scoutdog, I think that's a good point.

Reply #65 from Elemental Forums Top

Hmm, odd. We have also been told that we can have out grandchildren and there children etc married off. So that would mean we are potentially going to play for 100+ years on a large map. Which means that if the channelers aren't immortal they would be getting nearer and nearer to there eventual demise.

Reply #66 from Elemental Forums Top

Maybe the campaign is in a "short" period of time that is not enough for the Sovereign to die of old age but in sandbox games can take so long that they could die of old age and a succession/dinasty system apply. Pure speculation, eh?

Reply #67 from Elemental Forums Top

the sovereign cannot die of old age, only his children.    It isn't really speculation, just how it has been stated to work.

Reply #69 from Elemental Forums Top

To make breeding your descendants truly interesting, "Fear" and "Awe" ala Dominions should be implemented as combat bonuses linked to the ugliness or beauty of the spawn.  Diplomacy would be exciting if you had incentive to force your death/chaos-magic infused, black-scaled, formaldehyde-scented mutant niece to court the the quarter-wombat, quarter-octopus bastard child of Lord Gorrank the Hideous, in a last-ditch effort to churn out a grandchild with "The face that could launch 1000 ships screaming into the abyss of insanity".

Such a beast could even be used as a strategic biological weapon, sent to foreign state dinners and parties under diplomatic immunity and cursing those unlucky enough to be seated near her with impotence for years, let alone unfortunate dance partners whose feet are trod upon by her horribly gnarled and razor-clawed tentacle-legs.  The mere threat of an arranged marriage would make tyrants tremble.

That's definitely more fun than the life-magic themed "Awe" breeding route.

Reply #70 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 68
Frogboy changed his mind? "Channelers have a very long life (hundreds of years – they’re effectively immortal in our game but they’re not truly immortal)." https://forums.elementalgame.com/374288
To me, it sounds more of a lore issue. By saying "hundreds of years" you effectively say that they cannot die of old age in the span of a game, but can still choose to kill them off or progress time from a lore perspective.

I doubt that, based on what's been said, there'll be any kind of age mechanic for channelers.

Reply #71 from Elemental Forums Top

I doubt that, based on what's been said, there'll be any kind of age mechanic for channelers.

Oh I doubt it too, though it raises the question of how many generations are actually going to go by from game to game. Will the lore (That channelers live for a few hundred years) affect gameplay as to there are going to usually be around 3-5 generations per game? I don't know, it's very confusing to think about. Especially late at night after a few of these --->  :beer:  

Reply #72 from Elemental Forums Top

Hehe, the guy with the pitchfork is Sam Winchester. Can't make out though whether the guy beside him is Dean or not...

 

As for the aging issue: Well, in usual fantasy wielders of magic and such have always had a longer lifespan...