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Elemental: The MUST HAVE 2010 TBS requirements

Elemental: The MUST HAVE 2010 TBS requirements

imageAs reported elsewhere, Elemental will not be released next month but is tentatively scheduled for 3rd quarter 2010. Those of you who have been reading these journals of course have known that since last Fall but we had neglected to change the update on the store page. :)

So that we can refer to this journal entry later, we are not committing to any particular date. “When it’s done” is basically our time schedule.  That doesn’t mean we’ll wait until every feature we can possibly imagine is stuffed in there before we release it but it does mean that we aren’t going to let an arbitrary date determine when it’s done either. This is our baby. It’s your baby. It’s something we’ve all been waiting for for a very long time and it won’t be rushed.

So what are the basic things we feel have to be nailed down? I.e. what are things that we absolutely essential? These are the things that would cause us to delay the game if we aren’t satisfied with them:

  1. A rich world. The world the player plays in feels almost as rich and interesting as a pre-made fantasy world in an RPG despite being randomly generated.
     
  2. A fun and interesting story-driven campaign. I love sand box mode but I want to make sure the game comes with a campaign that tells the story of Elemental.
     
  3. An incredible single player experience. This kind of goes with #1 but what we mean is that when playing the game, the player feels like they are the center of a great epic story.
     
  4. 32 player multiplayer. This is a big one and will take a lot of work but it we are requiring that the game handle up to 32 players playing together. To make this work, it also means that games need to be automatically saved (to our servers regardless of whether it’s on a custom modded server or ours) so that stopping and starting games later is easy.
     
  5. Fun tactical battles. The tactical battles have to be enjoyable enough such that a person might just want to play a tactical battle as a stand alone game but be flexible enough so that players can control how long they take (i.e. everything from instant resolve to epic tactical battles).
     
  6. Fun civilization building.  That means an economic system that is enjoyable to play by a wide range of player types which means a LOT of time to play test this once it’s mature to let us figure out what parts could be automated by users who don’t want to micro manage while letting other people micro manage if they want.
  7. Beautiful on the high end, playable on the low end. This means that on that latest greatest AMD/nVidia setup you’ll be able to see amazing things visually. But it also means that on low end systems (like Netbooks) a player could also play it in purely cloth map mode if they want.  The goal is to present different ways to play the game rather than crippling the high or low end experience.
     
  8. Modding. Built in editors to let people create their own factions, maps, conversations, items, and other goodies as well as make sure more technical people can go hog wild on it. While I’m not promising the next part for release, my goal is to be able to take Elemental and create a Temple of Apshai game(a totally different game type) using Python.
     
  9. Crazy magic battles. Rather than the late game being about mopping up, it’ll be about great powers doing insane things with magical spells. World changing things (think Populous).
     
  10. Unique factions. Early on I made the stupid mistake of saying there are only two races in Elemental. There are lots of different races but they only come from two canon sources: Natural beings (like Men) and unnatural beings (The Fallen).  The creature you see on this page would be a type of Fallen creature but is clearly not humanoid.  While we won’t have elves, orcs, unicorns or fairies in the game, we intend to let people easily create their own (i.e. if you want your Half-men race complete with its own body, tech tree, magic spells, ability to farm faster, etc. you can do this). I imagine eventually players will have hundreds of different “races” (species) to play against. 

That’s just 10 quick things right there. 

The best way to know how things are going is to keep an eye on what public beta is out there.  Use THIS POST to keep track. We won’t go to BETA 3 until we are happy with the game mechanics and general fun potential.

Note: This doesn’t mean all players will agree with us on what constitutes “fun”. I guarantee there will be posts that will point to this very entry claiming that we agreed to have “fun civ building” but we went back on that because “fun” to that person means mining ore, smelting it, sending it to a shop to be turned into a sword, having the sword shipped somewhere else stored in a warehouse and then equipped (hint: we don’t stockpile resources in Elemental).  So we aren’t trying to be all things to all people. But the above should give you an outline of some of the things we think are very important. 

If you think I left something out, post below and I’ll either answer YES. NO. Or some lame cryptic marketing answer.

251,551 views 82 replies
Reply #51 Top

I'll be perfectly honest the campaign story doesnt phase me at all. I've never played GalCiv2s story, just the normal skirmish/whatever they call it on the largest map sizes.

Reply #52 Top

I for one need to have

 

1- a rich world. It's a big big must and I hope there will be variaity to the point that I could play 100 sand box games and still have not seen it all. I know modding can help but right out of the box I hope it will be that way.

3- Single player is a must. I'm not really a multiplayer guy so I want a  game that handles itself.

5- tactical battles are what I live for, I never skipped one battle in master of magic even when I was mopping up. I just love to have control.  I hope it will be beautifully made.

9- Crazy magic battles is a must in any fantasy world. I just hope it will be well made to really have a god like battles between channelers.

 

It would be fun to have so much items monsters buidings and whatever else you can name that you can't have everything during one game. That you absolutely need to play multiple games to be able to sample everything.

 

 

Reply #53 Top

I have a concern about magic which I'm hoping Frogboy will answer. You've said that kwe'll have crazy magic battle and also that magic is a big part. Well, to be honest I'm not a big fan of any kind of magic other than Buffs and De-Buffs. No fireballs or hurricans or any of that for me. Is it possible to play the game without having to use those things?

Reply #54 Top

Looking good Frogboy! :grin:  thanks for the update. I'll go back to the very first post on this and agree with Denryu, but that's only cuz I really liked camp 1 when you threw us that bone so many months ago |-)  

Reply #55 Top

I like that it's not overly complex. Europa Universalis drags along at a snails pace. It's clunky and boring. Civilization 4 is strategic, but it also moves quickly and doesn't get bogged down in it's own excessive systems.

It's important to note that complex does not mean strategic. Look at simple games like Chess or Go.

Reply #56 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 29
Almost completely unrelated, can't you give an example of what you call "Populus"-like powers?

I remember the suggestion of "burning a hole in the map" from way back, like someone pressed a cigar against it, resulting in a big hole in the game world, with possible hilarity as the ocean pours into it in massive waterfalls.

I still think that's a good idea.

 

That would be pretty awesome. The ocean pouring out, stranding naval units where they were. Then I could see the hole repairing and the ocean slowly resuming previous levels. Would be quite a world spell. Not sure if Elemental is going to have any naval aspects, but if not, it sure would be a cool FfH2 mod.

Reply #57 Top

I like that it's not overly complex....It's important to note that complex does not mean strategic. Look at simple games like Chess or Go

That's pretty much our feeling on the matter. Intertwining simple systems in interesting ways will be more managable (from both our end and the player's end) than complex systems intertwining.

Modders should be able to go nuts adding complex systems (resource storage, multi-tiered resource production) for those so inclined to play such a game.

Reply #58 Top

Great list, i hope the game will live to all those expectations, and i dont doubt it.

I have a question on the available playable races at game launch, because i didnt quite understand point 10.

Are you saying that there will only be two races/factions at launch, and that you count on players to add some more by modding means ? Or will there be more than two at game launch ? Or only two races, with multiple factions?

Cause i mean, okay, the idea of a strategic fantasy game where player-modded giant robots fight crazy man-rooster fanatics certainly is appealing to me, but i would also like to be able to play a vanilla game with a rich and coherent lore, faction/race wise, and to me that means more than two races !

(English isnt my main language, i hope im understandable and apologize if not. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer the questions in this thread.)

Reply #59 Top

There are two races, Kingdoms of Men, and Empires of the Fallen. That being said there are multiple faction per race. See this:

http://elementalbeta.wikidot.com/factions

Reply #60 Top

You have two races with different flavors. Humans (vanilla, chocolate...) and Fallen (salt, pepper...).

Reply #61 Top

You have two races with different flavors. Humans (vanilla, chocolate...) and Fallen (salt, pepper...).
  I find your sweet vs. savory take on the matter truly refreshing :)  

I shall steal it and call it my own.

Reply #62 Top

Quoting BoogieBac, reply 61
...  I find your sweet vs. savory take on the matter truly refreshing   
I shall steal it and call it my own.

Chocolate isn't just for sweets; I still kinda want a way to have a mole poblano experience in Elemental...

Reply #63 Top

I see on page 1 that I wasn't the only person to think Unclean Beast in the introductory picture.  :)

 

Overall, the goals sound nice, though I'll still continue to watch the game mechanics develope.  (And hopefully actually get the dang thing to work..)

Reply #64 Top

Modders should be able to go nuts adding complex systems (resource storage, multi-tiered resource production) for those so inclined to play such a game.

That is very exciting to hear, I need to learn how to mod! :grin:  

Reply #65 Top

Do not forget that we need to be able to understand game mechanics - that is, the interface should be clear to us. We ned to be able to learn how the system works in order to be able to plan ahead.

This means that looking at the details of a town should give us enough info to learn exactly how long it will take for that town to grow, how many units that town can train and how fast, how much gold the town generates, etc.

Once we understand these mechanics, it will be possible for us to decededly plan ahead. This allows for more interesting decision in every single way. Civ IV for example is like this. That game has very simple mechanics and everything about that game is clear as long as you are willing to study on it somewhat. Once you understand the mechanics, it is then possible to plan ahead up to the point where you can predict what will happen if you perform actions X and Y and choose the most favorable one for you.

For me, this being able to plan ahead is pretty much half the fun. I do not want to be forced to make decisions of which I do not understand the consequences. If that happens, I feel like I find myself in the backseat while the AI plays the game. I want clarity in the entire game from start to finish. I want to be able to learn the inner workings of diplomacy from studying the interface, I want to be able to learn all about town management, etc.

Btw, one game that does this extremely poor is Empire: total war. In that game the diplomacy is quantified from +200 to -200 but it is entirely unclear what the numbers mean. At -200 the AI will not declare war even though they hate the player with a passion and sometimes at more favorable relations the AI declares out of the blue. Please do not make Elemental like that.

Reply #66 Top

Quoting BoogieBac, reply 57

I like that it's not overly complex....It's important to note that complex does not mean strategic. Look at simple games like Chess or Go


That's pretty much our feeling on the matter. Intertwining simple systems in interesting ways will be more managable (from both our end and the player's end) than complex systems intertwining.

Modders should be able to go nuts adding complex systems (resource storage, multi-tiered resource production) for those so inclined to play such a game.

I was wondering if complex could be modded into the game. I'm all about complex economic systems :D

Reply #67 Top

Quoting Hadberz, reply 66

Quoting BoogieBac, reply 57
I like that it's not overly complex....It's important to note that complex does not mean strategic. Look at simple games like Chess or Go


That's pretty much our feeling on the matter. Intertwining simple systems in interesting ways will be more managable (from both our end and the player's end) than complex systems intertwining.

Modders should be able to go nuts adding complex systems (resource storage, multi-tiered resource production) for those so inclined to play such a game.

I was wondering if complex could be modded into the game. I'm all about complex economic systems
He said it could...

However, where would the line between complex and simplistic be? Civ IV has a complex system if you want a casual experience. A lot of my friends could not get into Civ IV because of how complex it was. However, with a little studying and little time I find that it is not so bad, even simplistic in some regards. It is however complex enough for my tastes. Much more comple and it is hardly fun any more because you could not get into the finer workings any more.

Even so, complex in terms of resource managemtn like in Settlers and such, where your caravans need to transport resources from A to B in order to process them combined with some managent of Civ IV would be ideal imo. It would already be fairly complex while it is still managable and clear enough.

Reply #68 Top

Let me tell you what bugs me about this beta process. It's too early to judge anything at all, which is frustrating as a tester. Let me give you a 'gourmet cheeseburger' analogy.

I know I would like some kind of gourmet cheeseburger, and stardock is going to make one for me, but they want some feedback from me to ensure my satisfaction as they know I have alot of experience enjoying some of the best cheeseburgers ever. So the process begins.


WEEK 1:

SD: Ok, here is some pepper, what do you think? Too much or too little?

ME: Well, it taste pungent and bitter.

WEEK 2:

SD: Ok, now we are adding cheese to the pepper, how bout that?

ME: Well, it's okaaay. in small quantities...

WEEK 3: THE SALT PATCH!

SD: Now things are starting to come together, we have added salt!

ME: I'm so sick of cheese and pepper, that the salt is frankly not helping.


I've been holding back on the beta testing lately, because I'm afraid that I'm ruining the game for myself. There are limitless ways to make a great game. I wanna see things that I wouldn't have thought of, all at once. I think that the Elemental team needs to trust their instincts as gamers and make the best game they know how to make. Then, when the beta testers can take a big bite, they can say if there is too much or too little pepper!

 

Reply #69 Top

Hmmmmmm....so many delicious metaphores. Guess my NYR is out the window today :(

cephalo: It's funny that your frustration is often shared by us, but just on the flipside of the coin. Keeping with your analogy, beta testers want to beef up the experience, and provide lots of suggestions within the context of what they're currently playing ("More cheese, with 5 different types to tickle the tastebuds"). Then we wonder why they'd want all that cheese, since it'd overwhem the overall composition of the meal.

As a gamer, I certainly can imagine the frustration of wanting to provide feedback to shape the game, but not really knowing our full picture (hell, even we're just NOW starting the grasp the whole picture of this project). This has been (and continues to be) an interesting experiment in shaping new IP, and in all honesty, I think the 'gamer' in you would be more satisfied holding off until Beta 3 to see what's been implemented. At that point we'll be happy with the overall scope and you should have an experience worth sinking your teeth into (even if it may be a tad undercooked)  ;)

Reply #70 Top

Cheeseburgers...:drool: :drool: :drool: That's quite a nice MUST HAVE. :P

Reply #71 Top

I think that number 2 on the list, making a fun, story driven campaign is going to be extremely important, and also very hard work. Harder, I think than you guys think. I was just thinking that the reason you see so many Elves, Dwarves and Goblins in games is that you don't need to explain them. Even Tolkein drew a great deal from pre-existing tradition as you can see here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAkJmDeRVs

If one uses those kind of archtypes, one can probably make a game without any kind of story and have it be widely accepted. With Elemental, it seems that you guys are deliberately trying to avoid many fantasy paradigms. Keep in mind though, that if you don't get the fictional part exactly right the game will fall flat. You have the task of creating a diverse and intriging fictional universe, the kind of which people spend lifetimes making! Don't think that you can just whip something up at the end of beta! You need numerous races and creatures for the player to learn about in a long, well paced process of discovery. I urge you to be very confident of this aspect of your universe while there's still beta testing left to do, because you have to get this right. Modders will not take the time to make mods for a game that isn't well liked, you can't just make a cool engine and leave it up to them.

Reply #72 Top

Stardock won't be the first company trying to avoid sterotypes. And there will be people that own't like the story no matter what because it doesn't have A or B, or because C reminds him of H done by Blizzard, Gamesworshop or Ridley Scott. They can always open threads asking for ideas for the different factions/lores... :P

Reply #73 Top

I hope that epic spells such as volcanoes are uncommon to rare. If in the late game it is just people hurling massive "Populous-type" spells at each other, I think that is going to cheapen those mega spells. Something like raising a volcoano I think should be both devastating to the recipient, and should represent the culmination of major spell casting and research on the caster's part. I do hope that there are amazing and still powerful spells that can be cast on a more regular basis, but I really hope that the planet changing spells never become commonplace. I realize this is a balancing issue that does not need to be addressed for many months yet.

@cephalo: I am not worried about backstory, I have a feeling that is getting a huge amount of attention, even though us beta testers are not seeing much yet. I also acutely feel your frustration, it is incredibly hard to give meaningful feedback on individual pieces of the puzzle without a better idea of the rest of the puzzle. Take the economic system - new resources and other pieces seem to be getting added all the time. Back when the current economic model was selected we were told that they were going to start simple and then make adjustments based on feedback. Then in a recent post Frogboy basically made it seem that this simple economic model had been "locked in". I honestly feel that I have not seen enough about how all the pieces fit together to really make a call one way or the other if the current model was adequate. I know a lot of people were hoping to be able to steer the canon game at least towards a bit more complexity, but now it seems the decision has been made to leave that to modders. Maybe I am reading too much into dev journal posts, something I have been told in the past that I tend to do.

  So it is frustrating, because it seems like we are told that our input is wanted, but not right now, and then things are set in stone and anyone that wants it different can mod it. from a dev PoV I understand that the day comes when you have to make a decision - it just seems like Cephalo is pointing out, it is really hard to give meaningful help when we are getting the recipe one ingredient at a time, and we DO NOT have the big picture. What's the solution? I don't know.

 

Reply #74 Top

denryu: Don't get too frustrated ;)  we'll be making user-suggested improvements up until gold (and beyond). Like I said, Beta 3 is where our true vision will begin to take form, so it may be a good starting point for people that want to see that 'big picture' before making those suggestions.

Just know that there are several key places where user input will be quite valuable in the rest of beta 1 and beta 2, so if you have stomach for it, we'd love for your feedback there as well. :)

Reply #75 Top

BoogieBac, is there a general idea when new users will be accepted to the beta? I know there is Beta 2 but when will it happen? Thanks!