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Don’t be afraid of the sausage factory

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Don’t be afraid of the sausage factory

from JoeUser Forums

If you’ve been through Stardock betas, none of what I’m going to say is going to be news to you.

But for everyone else…

Most companies – the smart ones anyway – carefully control the message.  You won’t see early screenshots or quick sketches shown to the public of most games because internally, most games change dramatically during their development.

We game developers like to give the impression that we have the MASTER DESIGN from the start.

We know what we’re doing.

From the start.

Right?

No.

Many well known games that seem genius today actually started out very different. But gamers don’t know that.

But I’m not a game designer. Not really.

I’m a gamer who happens to make games.  That’s how most of us at Stardock feel. We are GAMERS first.

Our games are not a work of art or a craft or even a job.

They’re games designed to be fun and we’ll do whatever we have to do to make sure they’re fun.

With Elemental, we have an unprecedented budget (for us) to work with.

  • We did Galactic Civilizations II with 3 programmers and 2 artists in 18 months.
  • We did The Political Machine 2008 with 1 artist, 2 developers in 6 months.
  • With Elemental, we have 8 developers and 7 artists.

Still small but it’s really not but we can do a lot with relatively few people.

And for those who are interested in seeing how the game industry those reading these journals can see the iterative process of how things are done – including when we change our minds on things.

It also means we’ll be very open about what games we like and get influences from. 

Inspiration

Here are some great games we play and can look at for ideas for instance:

Let’s see if you guys can guess all these games from their screenshots:

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The Soul of a game

One of our major goals for Elemental is to ensure the game has a soul. What I mean by this is that we don’t want everything abstracted to the point where the player doesn’t feel like they’re IN the game. That’s one of the reasons why we’re not having Orcs and Elves in the game. If someone else wants to make those fantasy races, that’s fine.  But we want Elemental to have a very definitive game world that it is in that brings the player into the game’s world. Then, later, if they want, they can add in their own orcs and elves and what not into the game. 

But we don’t want to just have a bunch of different factions and races that are simply generic and just different stats.  That was a problem in Galactic Civilizations that I don’t think was really solved until Twilight of the Arnor which finally gave each race its own unique technology tree.

In Elemental, I just think there’s so much more possible because we have the luxury of making a game with you guys instead of simply foisting a game on the public.  There’s just too much of an opportunity here to make something that’s new but brings forward some of the best elements from games we all have played and loved.

120,527 views 63 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 10
Someone else loved ascendency ? 

ASCENDENCY! :D Still have it here in my shelf. Was a great game. But the very best thing was not the tech-tree which was cool, but the music. The music was awesome. It was epic. It made you feel like... GALAXY... HUGE... COOL... EVERYTHING... SOMETHING BIG IS HAPPENING!

So my point is the music was good. :D

But one problem with Ascendency was that I always felt like I was really damned alone in that galaxy. Even though there were alien-players you felt lonesome. There are single player games that still make you feel like you are not on your own in this world.

Moreover Ascendancy got a bit slow to play soon. That was a UI and micromanagement problem.

 

Still mostly because of the researchtree and the music the game was very cool.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Another all but forgoten game is The Perfect General II developed by QQP (long since defunct).  This was their number 1 game.  It provided great single and multi player gameplay.  It also came with a map editer.

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

i just played it for a while *sniff* so many memories

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

So where would I go about finding and playing Dominions? (or dominions 3)

 

Edit: Nvm found official site. 50 dollars? o.O

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

@Tasunke: Yeah, I also saw it - 50$? I think their page hasn't been update for a LONG time.

I have to admitt I haven't heard about Ascendancy, but I'm sure abandonia will help we with this :).

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

played Dominions demo, seemed like good fun. It could just be superstition, but it seemed like watching the battle made it more likely for me to win ;D ... regardless, I played as the Atlanteans and think I will try a more terrestial nation before I make any total judgment.

The magic system for dominions, as well as the research system, doesn't seem very intuitive, maybe only because its the demo? I get the dominion/control aspect though, and religious aspect, only I don't see how to build new buildings or research stuff.

My initial impression though was that it was a high quality game.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 22

SL had a comp version : steel panthers.
Steel Panthers was close, but not quite it (maybe it's just me...).  The Vassal Game Engine lets us play SL and similar 'board games' over the net, but lacks the moderation/adjudication to alleviate some of that burden from players (plus hidden initial placement/etc. considerations).  Some melding of Steel Panthers and Vassal would be perfect.

And the calculations were really really intricated... You just had to think in terms of warfare more than in "numbers".
If properly done that can be a nice feature as it allows one to go as much by 'Art' as number-crunching 'Science.

Oh well, sorry to go kinda off-topic...

 

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Does the demo version of Dominions 3 disable the player from magical research?

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Good! I look forward to this game becoming a LOT less like a mixture of Civilization and GalCiv in a fantasy setting, both of which seem to be the dominant influence-givers so far. Haven't seen tactical battles yet, but I hope it won't be too HoMM. May Elemental truly be unique!!

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 34
Does the demo version of Dominions 3 disable the player from magical research?

IIRC no, but it's capped at X level. Correct me if I am wrong.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 36



Quoting Tasunke,
reply 34
Does the demo version of Dominions 3 disable the player from magical research?



IIRC no, but it's capped at X level. Correct me if I am wrong.

(I think this belongs in a different thread. The answer, however, is that the demo of dom3 allows research, but caps it. Also, the game is capped at turn 40, I believe.)

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting onomastikon, reply 35
Good! I look forward to this game becoming a LOT less like a mixture of Civilization and GalCiv in a fantasy setting, both of which seem to be the dominant influence-givers so far. Haven't seen tactical battles yet, but I hope it won't be too HoMM. May Elemental truly be unique!!

That's something that really needs to be emphasized! Learning from other great games is necessary, but not one of these games was perfect! Another very important thing about learning from past efforts are the things they did not do. What can Elemental do that hasn't been done? That's what I am most interested in seeing more than anything. If I want nostalgia I can get that with DOSbox. I want somthing new!

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting cephalo, reply 38

Quoting onomastikon, reply 35Good! I look forward to this game becoming a LOT less like a mixture of Civilization and GalCiv in a fantasy setting, both of which seem to be the dominant influence-givers so far. Haven't seen tactical battles yet, but I hope it won't be too HoMM. May Elemental truly be unique!!

That's something that really needs to be emphasized! Learning from other great games is necessary, but not one of these games was perfect! Another very important thing about learning from past efforts are the things they did not do. What can Elemental do that hasn't been done? That's what I am most interested in seeing more than anything. If I want nostalgia I can get that with DOSbox. I want somthing new!

... call-to-arms mechanic ... hint hint, nudge nudge

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

When Frogboy says he's going to try a new take with continuous TBS, people complain that they want old-school turns. But when he says he's going to bring back great gameplay like that from games in the early 90's, they jump on him because they want something new. He can't win! :frogboy:  

How about we just let him make his cool game and then we can play it and give him feedback. :P  

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ikros, reply 40
When Frogboy says he's going to try a new take with continuous TBS, people complain that they want old-school turns. But when he says he's going to bring back great gameplay like that from games in the early 90's, they jump on him because they want something new. He can't win!  

How about we just let him make his cool game and then we can play it and give him feedback.  

Heheh. I think we can all agree that we want something better than all those great games we remember.:dur:

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

Here's what I see as the key elements from those games.

MoM - the ability to change the game world with magic, win the game through magical means.

Dominions - I never played that one.

Ascendancy - Unique abilities for each faction, engaging research tree.

X-Com - I know this is blasphme, but I never liked X-Com.

FFH2 - Having drastically different play mechanics and personalities for the different factions.

MOO2 - Very deep faction creation system.

I'm a little disapointed that Warlords IV and Disciples didn't make your list.  As both games are great examples of how to have tactical combat that is deep, but doesn't take too long to resolve.

 

Reply #43 from Demigod Forums Top

Perfect General II was great, we played that game for years. 

Did'nt anyone play Deadlock I & II?  "We have an exoskelliton, you have skin" The Chit-Chit.  That game OOZED with personality.

Having Morale in Elemental would help a lot to make the units more alive; like they had a soul.  Having more than just ONE rating representing two factions attitude towrds each other would really help too.  There could be ratings like "Trust" (you have to raise trust to at least 51 % to trade with them); Alingnment (do you both have the same evil/good/greedy goals in life); and ratings like Fear;Respect; Reliablity (do you break your word/agreements a lot); perhaps a "Vendeta" rating, that shows how ticked off one race is towards another (you can't go to war agains another faction unless your Vendeta rating is high enough toward them).

Being able to go to war, trade, or make a defensive pact with other factions without having enough Vendeta/Trust/Alignment seems very "soulless" to me.  Especially the war part, being able to just tell hundreds of thousands of your people "Ok everyone, that faction over there is the most logical to attack, so I want you all to suddenly hate them, and go kill, rape, and pillage them.  What's that you say citizen?  You say why don't we attack that evil faction that's been harrasing us the entire game instead of the peaceful one?  Well, for one thing, that evil faction is really big and strong, and for another, your just a soulless icon who attacks whoever I tell you".

 

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

Diplomacy is another classic game, still going strong after 50-some years.  No dice, no luck, just cunning and negotiating and betrayal -- 'social engineering'.  Simple rules but complex strategies.  A strong diplomacy aspect in Elemental multiplayer would be nice.

 

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sorael, reply 42
Here's what I see as the key elements from those games.
(...)
X-Com - I know this is blasphme, but I never liked X-Com.
(...)

X-Com:

  • Hard, very interesting, random generated, meaningful tactical battles
  • Difficult management of budget (there were a few exploits how to obtain tons of $$$, but we forget about them)
  • Interesting & meaningful techs
  • Awesome feeling of controlling the whole world defense against aliens (from the Geo-view) - sending ships, building bases, patrolling the skies, looking for alien bases
  • Difficult, demanding & deep game with perfect blend of gameplay elements, where everything was important, and nothing felt out of place.
Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

I have to say Frogboy, I love this post. More companies should follow your business model. What follows is part of the description of Athanian democracy, quite unlike modern varieties and since I first started reading your posts I've been seeing paralells.


Given the exclusionary and ancestral conception of citizenship held by Greek city-states a relatively large portion of the population took part in the government of Athens and of other radical democracies like it. At Athens some citizens were far more active than others, but the vast numbers required just for the system to work testify to a breadth of participation among those eligible that greatly exceeded any present day democracy.

 

That sir, is why your games rock, but then again if they didn't I'd probably support you out of principle.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Unfortunately, Athenian democracy was little more than controlled anarchy, and would never have lasted if it hadn't been for the unusual politics of the Hellenic world (no -one was there to take over Athens when the old government collapsed).  It was never a particularly successful form of government, despite what Wikipdedia says.

 

I happen to know a historian...

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting tdgeorge, reply 27
Another all but forgoten game is The Perfect General II developed by QQP (long since defunct).  This was their number 1 game.  It provided great single and multi player gameplay.  It also came with a map editer.

Yep. Perfect General 2 was awesome.

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

Thank you Astrath, I didn't know that. I'd just heard that A. democracy was a purer form that is yet to be reproduced.

 

Despite what I wrote however it's wasn't really the paralell I was pushing but the... well, liberties that naturally flow on from  that but are still relevent. First and foremost is (of course) they actually listen, I've heard horror stories of developers moderating negative threads while the game is still being produced and in some cases, well after. Stardock doesn't sugar coat anything, they don't treat us like children, and in point-of-fact they treat us as gamers as opposed to the customers we get everywhere else (this has been stated and proven on many, many occasions). What I find trully remarkable is that on the web-site there is a total absence of propaganda. Most companies at this point know exactly where they're going so they're free to advertise and big-note the game til one could recite the adds. Given that Stardock caters to the tastes of their fans (we already know what we want) advertising on that scale would be rather, well, offensive imho.

 

One of our major goals for Elemental is to ensure the game has a soul. There we have it, Frogboy I'm assuming knows what he wants the game to feel like at the end so will steer it in that direction, but as it stands, it looks like Elemental is being given quite a lot of room to evolve on it's own. Even if I am off on one or two points, feel free to correct me if I am, we're still following and awesome game by an awesome company.

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

I've been thinking about how solicitating player input can lead to a 'design by committee' and its attendant downsides.  Often the best games/etc. are those where one or a few creaters have a strongly held vision and religiously stick to it.  Trying to please (most) everyone leads to network tv shows ;)

Upon reflection I'm thinking that the devs have a good idea of what they want, and that player-solicitated ideas won't change that (thus no real 'design by committee' -- well, other than the dev committee).  Player suggestions can have an effect -- a 'nudge' -- without changing their basic vision.