Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
                                                    Ryat                        Sivcorp               Runesia
                                                    DirtySanchezz           GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile               Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike            lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                  Kitkun                 Agent of Kharma
                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

1,701,532 views 913 replies
Reply #876 from Sins Forums Top

I think the armor type on the ogrov/adjudici is fine.  It is intuitive and makes sense.  All the things that "assault" either my planet (siege frigs) or structures (ogrovs/adjudici) have the same armor type and are countered by fighters.  As a defender, I know what to build for the counter.  Just seems to make sense.  Fighters are for defense, bombers are never for defense but for offense.  It is a "wholistic" and consistent system.  It isn't arbitrary.  I like it.

Reply #877 from Sins Forums Top

I do rather like the idea of switching Adjudicator and Ogrov Armor to Heavy - for one thing, it makes sense, seeing how they're CRUISERS, not frigates, so the armor would be justified.  Two, who says that a little variety is a bad thing?  Just means that "lol I mass fighterz I win" is no longer a suitable tactic.  Third...

Well, I'd tell you number three, but then I'd have to kill you - it's something of a little insight I made myself. *_*

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #878 from Sins Forums Top

It is intuitive and makes sense.
No, it's totally daft, and not just from the perspective that the vessel's designers must have thought "People keep using fighters to counter our death machines.  Why don't we design something NOT vunerable to fighters and gain a tactical advantage?...Nah, they'll never expect ANOTHER death machine vunerable to fighters!" it's total failure of sensibility.  Not to mention the most strategy involved in protecting your planets (as Kharma just demonstrated) is clicking the "Create Fighter" button multiple times.  For what is supposed to be a complex 4X strategy game, having a "Does everything" solution to defending your planets is a little...lacking in class...put it that way.

 

Anyone remember when lrms were the answer to everything?  Well this situation with the siege vessels & fighters is like that, only not as bad.

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Reply #879 from Sins Forums Top

Let's put it this way:

Unit A

Unit B

Unit 1

Unit 2

Numbers are you, Letters are the opponent.

You are defending your homeworld.  Unit A comes en-masse to attack you.  You respond with your Unit 1, witch counters Unit A.  Enemy fleet commander responds with Unit B, which has High defense against Unit 1.  As a response, you send Unit 2 to fight off Unit B, which it counters, but does not counter Unit A.

This crossover system is the same as would naturally evolve in any fleet that has reached critical mass, like all 3 races of sins.  You won't send the same ship in a different shape, you'll send a ship that is not weak against what your enemy is using.  Granted, they will send something new to counter you, but that is the inevitable evolution of war.

That said, very few units in sins possess the same purpose as the others in their faction, with exceptions made for LF and HC, being slightly different, but having the same basic purpose as the fleet's "Tank" units.  The game, IMO, doesn't represent a true war-zone, but that is a very diffiult thing to do, and would require every ship in the fleet to essentially be made up of Capitol ship style units, that you customize yourself.  Needless to say, that is not a viable option overall, at least with our current programming capabilities.

-Exile

Reply #880 from Sins Forums Top

You won't send the same ship in a different shape, you'll send a ship that is not weak against what your enemy is using.

Exactly.

All the things that "assault" either my planet (siege frigs) or structures (ogrovs/adjudici) have the same armor type and are countered by fighters.

Seige frigates do not have the same role as bombers so this is an irrelevant comparison.

If the enemy has already massed fighters, you can't use bombers. However, the other option is just as useless in that situation so why have another option (assualt cruisers) at all? It makes no sense and is entirely redundant.

Reply #881 from Sins Forums Top

Seige frigates do not have the same role as bombers so this is an irrelevant comparison.

It isn't an irrelevant comparison.  The siege frigates assault my planet.  Ogrovs and Adjudicators assault my structures.  So do bombers.  Fighters counter all of them.  Simple, intuitive, makes sense.  No need for me to have to map an arbitrary, complex system of counters in my head, making things complicated just for the sake of making things complicated.

If the enemy has already massed fighters, you can't use bombers. However, the other option is just as useless in that situation so why have another option (assualt cruisers) at all? It makes no sense and is entirely redundant.

The problem here isn't the vulnerability to fighters.  Make your own fighters, or build flak.  The problem is that the Ogrov/Adjudicator only attacks structures, but costs about the same as a damn carrier.  So usually you'd just rather build a carrier.

Reply #882 from Sins Forums Top

Simple, intuitive, makes sense. No need for me to have to map an arbitrary, complex system of counters in my head, making things complicated just for the sake of making things complicated.

No, no and no. This is not making things complicated for the sake of it. I for one would rather have a complex counter system then a overly simplistic one.

Ogrovs and Adjudicators assault my structures. So do bombers. Fighters counter all of them.

Thats the problem! To defend your structures all you need to do is spam fighters which is boring and stupid. The defender doesn't need to adapt. Its just spam, spam, spam fighters. Seiging planets is very different to destroying structures.

Defender: "I don't know what my opponent is going to use against my structures, but I already know what units to get." See the problem?

My point is that the defender should need to respond to the new threat of assualt cruisers. Responding to the new threat of enemy flak etc. is irrelevant to assualt cruiser balance.

Further more it is counter-intiative to have assualt cruisers the only cruisers to have light armour when the rest have heavy.

Reply #883 from Sins Forums Top

Simple, intuitive, makes sense.
Except from the attacker's point of view.  If the enemy has something capable of crushing whatever you have currently designed to take him out, you design something that he CAN'T easily crush in order to take the advantage.  Creating something that doesn't give you the advantage is counter-intuitive (unless you're TRYING to loose), and the whole concept of "Strategy" goes out the window.  This is a strategy game, yes?  So perhaps it should involve the strategy of exploiting the opponent's weaknesses, such as a monochrome defence strategy, yes?
Make your own fighters, or build flak.
This still doesn't solve the problem of an alternative structure buster that isn't really an alternative.

Reply #884 from Sins Forums Top

No switching from bombers to assault cruisers in the face of fighters does have a purpose. 

1) Bombers are somewhat slow at destroying starbases, or you need a TON of them to get the job done with any kind of speed. If you're facing an amount of fighters (and/or flak, and/or anti-sc abilities) that prevents you from destroying a Starbase, increasing the amount of bombers wont get you as far as switching your bombers to fighters and getting assault cruisers, which can get the job done much faster.

2) A big difference is made in where the SC in the well are fighting, while bombers themselves are very short ranged, your fleet cannot support them with your own anti-sc units (with the exception of fighters), where as the range of assault cruisers allows you to support them with your fleet, and forces enemy fighters to engage on your turf. This is THE MAIN DIFFERENCE. THIS is the Alternative. This is the Advantage

If you truly believed in the whole "if unit 1 and unit 2 do the same thing, they should have different counters" BS, then you should think that carriers shouldnt counter all 3 fleet heavy hitters (LRF, HC, Capital Ships). Those three are designed to be the biggest damage dealers in your fleet, yet theyre all countered by the SAME UNIT. So do people spam carriers only? No, because there are units specifically designed to neutralize them. 

So then what is the deal? How do you beat fighters normally? Well with flak, fighters, and Anti SC abilities of course! But how do you get them to come out from the safety of the starbase so you can use YOUR flak, and YOUR anti-sc abilities to neutralize them? Well you get assault cruisers! That you can heal! and protect! That are cheaper than more carriers, and actually do the job faster!

Consider the defenders burden in a situation where assault cruisers are countered by Bombers. You can only have so many strikecraft from defensive structures, being forced to divide them in half to go half bombers, half fighters would make them all over useless against fleets with many many more SC than a planets defenses could hope to handle. At least with as many fighters as you can muster you stand a chance with the upgrades your hangars can get, and not having to worry about your fighters getting obliterated by enemy flak, or magnetize or bitch slap etc. Or worse, having to switch from fighters to bombers to handle incoming assault cruisers that could easily destroy every structure before the hangars or Starbase can fill an entire squad of bombers. They'd be completely screwed if that fleet had even a small number of fighters to suppress the bombers.

With fighters countering Assault cruisers, they stand a chance (though in many cases, not a very good one) of being able to take them out before the fighters are suppressed by the enemy fleet. Assault cruisers aren't weak units. They've got respectable amounts of hull and shields and do LOADS of damage to structures.

I get some of the arguements like "the only cruiser with light armor". I get that, but I think certain things above outweigh that. You want to change the armor to heavy? Fighters and Bombers get the same modifier to heavy armor (50%). That doesnt help if you want bombers to be the answer.

 

Reply #885 from Sins Forums Top

Further more it is counter-intiative to have assualt cruisers the only cruisers to have light armour when the rest have heavy.

Well all I can say to that is, if my subverters have heavy armor, it's some really crappy heavy armor, because they die to one pass of a fighter squadron.

This still doesn't solve the problem of an alternative structure buster that isn't really an alternative.

The problem is these anti-structure cruisers cost the same as carriers, but aren't as good as carriers.  That's why it isn't an alternative.  If you can have a unit that is only effective against structures, or a unit for the same price that is effective against everything, and has longer range to boot, you're right, it's not an alternative.  You just pick the carrier.

Lowering the supply on these things might nerf starbases though, which I don't want to happen.  One solution might be to make bombers less effective against structures.  But what would that do to vasari, since they don't have an anti-structure cruiser, and therefore probably need bombers?

Anyway, I think either bombers should be nerfed vs. structures so as to make the anti-structure cruisers a vaible choice, or their supply needs to be reduced because their supply is just huge.

 

Reply #886 from Sins Forums Top

@Deceiver- my thinking in making Assault Cruiser armor "heavy" is that now instead of be shredded by fighters they are shredded by LF (giving the rather under-valued LF another useful role).

@AoK- Agreed in reference to the Starfish. Ogrovs are already pretty good (costing a little less than a TEC carrier and having about the same supply I believe).  Adjudicators are just too expensive and supply intensive to be worthwhile.

Reply #887 from Sins Forums Top

If adjudicators could fire multiple shots at one target, that would solve the problem, but currently they don't.

Reply #888 from Sins Forums Top

I'm in favor of changing the armor type on the assault cruisers.

Karma, I don't think you're going to win any arguments by saying "I want to be able to spam as the defense"

Also, I understand the argument for making Adjudicators capable of (individual) focus fire, but I still don't like it.  Currently, they're fairly distinct from the Orgovs in their method of use, and I like them that way.

Reply #889 from Sins Forums Top

ATM it is:

Enemy send Bombers => Build fighters

Enemy send assault cruisers => Build fighters.

 

So Fighters are omni counter to anti-structure units. It is bad for tactical diversity...

 

I agree with:

Enemy send Bombers => Build fighters

Enemy send assault cruisers => Build bombers

 

Much better. If enemy has tons of fighters, you can still surprise him. Diversity wins.

Reply #890 from Sins Forums Top

Deciever you should keep this thread going and just delete the ones they patched already.That way we dont have to revote on stuff.

BTW guys deciever is right about fighters countering bombers and anti structure cruisers.The system works well.Its just like he stated.You cant split up your defense nor can you change them aroun on command.

Reply #891 from Sins Forums Top

I see deciever's point.  He's leaning towards balancing the unit's through fleet synergy, though, relying on other ships to keep your hitter safe.  It does make sense, but it would make the game even more complex, and ultimately realistic, if you integrated both viewpoints.

Unit A is tough now, but add in support ships, and it effectively becomes tougher, thereby making your opponent counter both Unit A and support ships to defeat you.

IDK.  Just my opinion.  I agree one unit shouldn't be able to counter all the siege type units.

I also believe Fighters were meant to be for a defensive role, and Bombers were offensive, so that could be why.

-Exile.

Reply #892 from Sins Forums Top

I recently reinstalled Entrenchment and to ease myself back into playing I wound up playing a Small Random vs TEC as Vasari. This wound up turning into a 5, yes FIVE, hour game due to the constant back-and-forth gameplay involved. The MagneticField would have made an excellent choke point (as it, aside from the Pirate Base was the only way into my empire) but I couldnt put a SB there. In addition, it seemed that whenever my back was turned a Raloz would smack an Argonev on my planet. It was pretty horrible as it made me drag portions of my fleet back to take these things on. In the end, I won by sheer force and overpowering their defences, which were drained due to the constant Raloz spam from the AI. The Argonevs were, among numerous other things, placed on the edge of the grav well and just hell to get trade ships through. In their territory I got hit by wave, after wave, of mines.

So: Yay to building SBs in Mag fields and Yay to warning of Ralozes incoming.

Reply #893 from Sins Forums Top

If you truly believed in the whole "if unit 1 and unit 2 do the same thing, they should have different counters" BS, then you should think that carriers shouldnt counter all 3 fleet heavy hitters (LRF, HC, Capital Ships). Those three are designed to be the biggest damage dealers in your fleet, yet theyre all countered by the SAME UNIT.

These tactical situations are quite different from bombers and assualt cruisers because carriers are not their only counter. Other units counter them and HCs counter LRFs and cap ships are vulnerable to LRFs so tactical diversity is preserved. This is not the case with assualt cruisers and bombers. Tactical diversity IS present, is it just very limited.

Like whisky said, giving assualt cruisers heavy armour would make LFs more useful.

.The system works well.

Like Crazyelectron said, this is not the case from the attacker's point of view.

Reply #894 from Sins Forums Top

Your point is invalid Juletron, because fighters arent the only thing that counter assault cruisers. Pretty much ANYTHING except certain structures counter them because they cannot attack anything except structures (but even some structures can counter them). But if you want a more specific answer, HC do bonus damage to them, LRF can still kill them, even bombers do a fair amount of damage to them. Fighters just happen to be easy to access for defenses AND get the best bonus. I see what you;re saying about tactical diversity, but you're overlooking the fact that assault cruisers only kill structures, and that means anything can counter them. It's the accompanying fleet that makes them hard to counter, not their armor type. Changing their armor type doesnt change the fact that you need to support them with a fleet or (place any unit here) can and will kill them, and if you're already supporting them with a fleet, then their Armor type DOES NOT MATTER. What does matter is that a defending player whose got his defenses set up for bomber attack can punish players foolish enough to send in a few assault cruisers by themselves to handle things, and doesnt have to leave himself incredibly vulnerable by scrapping his fighters to build bombers, or wasting valuable hangar space on bombers. It allows the defender the CHANCE at saving his expensive defensive cluster before assault cruisers tear it to pieces (which I might add they do quite rapidly and quite well).  Changing their armor type to heavy: LFs have enough jobs to do in my mind, and have the most difficult time of any unit to do that job because of the popularity of LRFs. So no, I don't think thats a good plan. LFs are the hard counter to the most units! and yet they are the easiest unit to counter. Adding to their workload is just asking for trouble.

Reply #895 from Sins Forums Top

Well, yeah, you can counter them with colony frigates. Is that ever going to happen? Not really. Would like to see them off of light armor, though I agree that heavy doesn't quite work. Very-heavy?

 

:fox:

Reply #896 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Kitkun, reply 895
Well, yeah, you can counter them with colony frigates. Is that ever going to happen? Not really. Would like to see them off of light armor, though I agree that heavy doesn't quite work. Very-heavy?

 
:fox:

Either this or Heavy.  If Very Heavy, then it WOULD force defenders to choose between bombers and fighters.

Reply #897 from Sins Forums Top

If you truly believed in the whole "if unit 1 and unit 2 do the same thing, they should have different counters" BS, then you should think that carriers shouldnt counter all 3 fleet heavy hitters (LRF, HC, Capital Ships).
Carriers counter nothing.  Fighters counter LRF and Bombers counter HC and Cap. Ships.  Depending on the enemy you will face, you must change units to suit the situation - building carriers will not save you if you don't equip them properly - it's about making tatical decisions so you are properly equiped to counter the enemy.  The only time when a carrier could technically counter everything would be a Sova using RM, in which case it would have instant access to fighters and bombers, but that's beside the point.
Consider the defenders burden in a situation where assault cruisers are countered by Bombers. You can only have so many strikecraft from defensive structures, being forced to divide them in half to go half bombers, half fighters would make them all over useless against fleets with many many more SC than a planets defenses could hope to handle.
A defender should have his own fleet backing up his defensive structures.  As many have said, these structures mearly serve as a means to buy time for your own fleet to tackle the enemy, they are not the be all and end all of Imperial Defence.  The primary purpose of defensive structures is to give your fleet and advantage in your own territory (Repair, Fighter cover, etc.) not fight the enemy for you. If that were the case, empires would be impenetrable. 

 

All the defender needs to do currently is a bit of fighter micromanagement and the assualt cruisers are toast.  He is at no disadvantage from sitting on his rear and letting the enemy come after him.  If he has his own fleet in the well (as he should) those assualt cruisers are toast from fleet FF and large groups of effective counters (Fighters) focusing on them, no matter how many flak you have.  If assault cruisers are less vunerable to fighters, then by building them you actually nullify one of the advantages the opponent has against you, and if the opponent has to build bombers to counter the assault cruisers, he has to make a tactical choice; "Do I build bombers, and risk getting caught with no SC cover, and hope he is slow on the assault, or do I stick with fighters to protect my fleet from enemy bombers, and hope that my fleet can take out the assault cruisers?"  Tell me, is that sort of situation not the essence of strategy games?

 

And if you have been the ingenious person who has built lots of flak to kill off the enemy fighters, please tell me how you will counter the fleet in the gravwell with your autocannon army?  Flak are (comparetively) rubbish against anything but SC.  You go with a fleet full of Flak and AC, the enemy fleet will clean you up, considering it should be there supporting the defensive structures.  If it isn't, lucky you, you probably won six planets ago anyway; you know, when you wiped out his fleet and this is just mopping up a stubborn player, or something?

Fighters and Bombers get the same modifier to heavy armor (50%). That doesnt help if you want bombers to be the answer.
Well perhaps give them V-Heavy armour then.  It doesn't change the fact that the game's two structure busters are vunerable to the same thing.
Pretty much ANYTHING except certain structures counter them.
Aside from the obvious question of which structures (and don't say hangar bays, for the reasons mentioned above) note the conspicuous lack of the word "effectively" in this sentance.  The issue is not so much how I can get rid of the assault cruisers as how quickly I can get rid of the assault cruisers before they eat all my structures.  With them using light armour, the advantages for the opponent are minimal, as hostile fighters can mince them before they do too much damage, just like with the bombers, but with heavy(er) armour, those fighters are a far less of an effective counter, and so the opponent's assualt cruisers can cause more damage before they are destroyed (or pulled back) making them a much more effective choice to fight a fighter heavy enemy.  Said enemy is forced to make a tactical decision, to try and fight you off with what he has, or change strategies in an attempt to out-manouver you.  Currently, he doesn't have to be fussed either way, as he knows no matter what is coming, he has an effective counter to your attack.  Counters are far more complex than what unit X can or can't shoot.

 

So, I suggest we add "Change assault cruiser armour type to be less vunerable to fighters?" up there, and see what the public thinks.

Reply #898 from Sins Forums Top

If Very Heavy, then it WOULD force defenders to choose between bombers and fighters.

Tough choices are what strategy games are all about. I agree that very heavy armour may be a better solution then heavy armour. Using bombers defensively would be a novelty.

add "Change assault cruiser armour type to be less vunerable to fighters?" up there

Agreed.

Reply #899 from Sins Forums Top

I really dont understand this arguement.Its so easy to defend against fighters.20 flak and a few hoshis can probably defend against a heavily fighter based defended planet.Ya you may lose an orgov or 2 but the defender loses all his structures and sb and planet.Makin the defender change as you arrive makes it impossible for the guy to have the chance to kill even 1 ogrov.Against a large fleet with fighters?Bring a kol and park it next to you ogrovs he will lose all his fighters very fast.Again you will lose a few ships but once you have supressed the fighters battle is yours.

Reply #900 from Sins Forums Top

The more i think about this, the more i think Deciever is right.  Though for me, it's mostly that i see fighters as defense and bombers as offense.  IDK.  I doubt the devs will make any more changes to the game.  THey might launch one or two more patches asfter Diplomacy comes out, to fix bugs, but changing the game outright leaves room for new bugs, and they didn't exactly seem too happy about this last patch we been asking for.  I think we should focus on finding bugs, rather than making a wish list.  The game does work right now, after all.

-Exile Ascendant