Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
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No Change Needed-

 

 

 

1,701,532 views 913 replies
Reply #851 from Sins Forums Top

Are you guys taking into consideration the upgrade that allows sb to target 1 extra target.Thats a 25% boost in firepower from 1 direction.Put the orky in the middle and target extre 4 structures at once.It also gives 10% damage buff.

 

Reply #852 from Sins Forums Top

Lets start with 25% buff at the most. You want to buff it not make it unstoppable. I have no objection to a buff. The Orky is rather poor on the structure damage aspect. But I also dont want to see it destroy 3-4 of my structures at once in just a few shots. Personally I dont find anything wrong with the current Orky. So it has a flaw...so what? It has greater grav well control than any other unit.

 

But if your gonna buff the Orky to 50% I want a 25% buff to Resupply. B/c now I fear that with the buff and with Kortul's recent Distruptive Strike fix, my repair bays are gonna be worthless, draining AM from use and Distruptive strike.

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #853 from Sins Forums Top

The Ogrov is definitely the best anti-structure tool in the game.  Nothing else compares.  I'd much sooner be looking at the weak Adjudicator than the disintegrator weapons of the Orkulus as a point of weakness.

Reply #854 from Sins Forums Top

@ Minds - Yes, I also had the +1 targets upgrade.  When I say "fully", then, damn it, I meant FULLY!

Reply #855 from Sins Forums Top

Darvin makes a good point.  The Adjudicator needs more help than the Orky.  At least the Orky can multitask.  The Adjudicator is worthless unless you have a lot and you are aiming at a lot of structures.

Reply #856 from Sins Forums Top

To the adjudicator, I once again bring up my suggestion from the last time:

5 targets: Each cannon attacks 1 structure each.
4 targets: 3 cannons attack 1 target each, the last two attack the remaining target.
3 targets: 2 pairs of cannons attack 1 target each, the remaining cannon attacks its own.
2 targets: 3 cannons attack one structure while 2 attack the other.
1 target: All 5 cannons focus on the target.

Granted, this may be a bit code-heavy, but it's something I thought makes sense.  In addition, the starfish's supply cost should be lowered, as well (to what, I don't know - I'm open to suggestions).

Reply #857 from Sins Forums Top

Currently is there actually a target cap for the Adjudicator?

Reply #858 from Sins Forums Top

Yes there is, though i can't remember what it is. But in my experience adjudicators work better in numbers just like Orgrovs. The difference is while 20 Ogrovs are pretty effective against an Orky, 20 adjudicators still need some help. BUT 20 adjudicators work wonders on stationary targets, and are much much more effective against late game defensive clusters than the Orky is. I use adjudicators to clear planets of structures after I've forced enemy fleets to retreat. I follow with my fleet, leaving some adjudicators and purge vessels to clear the planet so I don't get hung up. Orkies aren't exactly efficient using this type of strategy, where as both adjudicators and Orgrovs are. Adjudicators dont have the Orky busting power of Orgrovs, but they are still quite effective at attacking other Starbases.  You can send your Orgrovs or Adjudicators to rush a fully upped Orky with your fleet and they'll be great assistance, especially since in all likelihood with all the available targets, the Orky will only be attacking one of them at a time, and will waste precious time and firepower maneuvering around the rest of the fleet. Adjudicators are fine IMO, their damage is just spread out yes, but you can easily make up for their shortcomings by getting more of them (just like orgrovs), where as you cant do that with an Orky.

Reply #859 from Sins Forums Top

The problem is, Adjudicators are 50% more expensive than Ogrovs but actually pack less punch individually than an Ogrov.  If you want to clear a tight defensive network including repair bays and lots of structures, then the starfish has a purpose, but this sort of defensive perimeter is quite rare to begin with and it's clearly one of the least effective units otherwise.

The starfish also suffers from being quite weak and easy to pick off with fighters.  Given its immense cost and low effectiveness, this is not deserved.  I honestly find one for one the Ogrov is actually the better unit 95% of the time despite costing significantly less.  The Adjudicator needs help, because right now it just doesn't work.  If you have the cash to bring out 8 or 9 (we're talking about 200 command worth of specialized units here!) they don't pack enough punch.  If you're going to bring out that many units, why not just go with bombers?

Reply #860 from Sins Forums Top

Darvin, you are making the argument I made here on this very same thread a few months ago.  You would have to scroll back quite a few pages, but I said that Ogrovs and Adjudicators are NOT supplied correctly, i.e. they cost way too much supply for what they do. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want them made OP (too cheap).  But I want a reason to build them over bombers.  I went down the list comparing them to bombers, and I almost never see a reason to invest in these incredibly high-cost, incredibly specialized units when you can get bombers which are not only cheaper, but they can damage something besides structures.  About the only thing I found in favor of Adjudicators/Ogrovs over bombers is that bombers take antimatter to build (if they don't come from a capship).

I think both units need a supply reduction, Adjudicators maybe even more so.

Reply #862 from Sins Forums Top

The one thing I've found odd about Orgovs and Adjudicators is that they have the same armour type as bombers, which means both kinds of structure busters are countered by by fighters, making a mockery of the counter system.  If your opponent is fielding fighters to protect his SB, it means you are stuck for a clever approach, and are forced to brute force your way through the defences.  it doesn't make sense.  An armour change for Orgovs and Adjudicators perhaps?

Reply #863 from Sins Forums Top

The one thing I've found odd about Orgovs and Adjudicators is that they have the same armour type as bombers, which means both kinds of structure busters are countered by by fighters, making a mockery of the counter system.

Actually, this seems perfectly fine and normal to me, unless someone can explain why it isn't.

Reply #864 from Sins Forums Top

@ Volt:  The reason you don't see more than 5 targets on my list is because that is the targeting cap.  The starfish cannot target more than 5 structures at any time.

@Electron:  An armor change might be a good idea - I'm not sure what would be a good armor type, but Medium or Heavy sound like attractive choices.
Wait, Heavy? ...hmmmm... *_*

@ Kharma: Adjudicators DEFINITELY need a supply reduction - they cost almost as much as Aerias supply-wise but can't do their job anywhere REMOTELY as effectively as their carrier brethren.  Maybe dropping the supply to about 9 or 8 would be a suitable adjustment?

Reply #865 from Sins Forums Top

Ogrovs are fine; those things hit viciously hard and if you bring 4 or 5 you can take down a starbase shockingly quickly.  Maybe a tad fragile, but in terms of damage for cost they are already exceptional.  It's the Adjudicator, a unit that hits much softer for 50% more cost and is only slightly harder to kill that's the problem. 

Changing these units to be less weak to fighters would be a useful change.  Presently with Vasari starbases simply able to move into range and Advent starbases with meteor control they aren't even hard counters to begin with.  Heck, a TEC player with targeting uplink can give their starbase enough range to attack Ogrovs and Starfish anyways...

Reply #866 from Sins Forums Top

Ogrovs are fine; those things hit viciously hard

They do hit visciously hard, I never disputed that.  What I'm asking is, considering their supply cost, do you find yourself buying them instead of carriers?  List every pro and con you can think of, ogrovs vs. carriers.  (Range?  Carriers have more.  Tier level?  Carriers are less Tier.  Specialization?  Carriers attack more targets.  Etc.)  I was able to come up with one advantage ogrovs have over carriers - they don't depend on antimatter.

Yes, they hit hard.  What I'm saying is, they aren't supplied correctly.  I don't think there is currently a reason to buy them over carriers.  If there is, tell me that reason.

Changing these units to be less weak to fighters would be a useful change.

I think cheapening them somewhat would make it so it wouldn't matter so much if you lost a few to fighters.

Heck, a TEC player with targeting uplink can give their starbase enough range to attack Ogrovs and Starfish anyways...

I actually don't mind the burden of "pain in the ass" being on the assaulter of the starbase.  We all wanted tough starbases.  Again, I just wonder what the reason is to pick ogrovs or adjudici (lol, what's the plural on that?) over bombers.  I don't want these things cheap as dirt, mind you.  But they should be cheaper than carriers, since they just do one thing and one thing only - take out structures.  There has to be a reason to buy them over carriers, otherwise there is no reason for them to be in the game.

You are right, though.  Adjudici have it worse than ogrovs.

Reply #867 from Sins Forums Top

The plural of Adjudicator is adjudicators.  The question is, what is the plural of Prius?  My friends and I have decided on Prii.

 

At any rate, I believe that Agent has a point.  There actually isn't muc of a reason to get them since they do do the same thing as bombers (less effectively) and are countered by the same units.  So here I believe should be the priority:

1. Adjudicators

2. Orgovs

3. Orky

Reply #868 from Sins Forums Top

Actually, this seems perfectly fine and normal to me, unless someone can explain why it isn't.

It is extremely stupid that bombers and assualt cruisers are both countered by fighters. This means that having an alternate counter to stuctures is entirely redundant.

For example, if you spam bombers to kill enemy structures, the enemy must spam fighters to counter you. However, you really want or need to kill his structures for whatever reason. However, you cant rely on assualt cruisers cos the enemy has already mass produced the counter.

Whats the point of having two counters to structures if they are both vulnerable to the same units?

Like Electron said, it is a MOCKERY of the counter system. The enemy does not need to adapt to what you are doing, he just needs to spam fighters.. Where is the tactics or strategy in that? There is none.

If assualt cruisers had say heavy armour the enemy would then think to themselves "crap I can no longer rely on my fighters to protect my structures I need something else now. I must ADAPT to what he is now doing."

 

Reply #869 from Sins Forums Top

I don't really know what to put them as though...  I don't want them as medium since they will be slaughtered by LRF's.  I don't want them as heavy because then they are countered by bombers and the problem hasn't been solved.

What they need is a reason to get them.  Let's look at what options we have:

  1. Increased health
  2. Increased damage
  3. An ability
  4. Reduced cost (monetary or fleet supply)
  5. Armor type change

Well, 1 and 2 are out because they are plenty durable/powerful (minus the adjudicator, but that's a different issue).  3 could be interesting.  4 could be helpful.  5 is out for the reason above.

So really, I can only see a solution as being either an ability or a cost reduction.  Normally I'd have some ability idea, but right now, I'm kinda blank..  Maybe because I'm paying more attention to the Colts than my computer...

Reply #870 from Sins Forums Top

They do hit visciously hard, I never disputed that.  What I'm asking is, considering their supply cost, do you find yourself buying them instead of carriers? List every pro and con you can think of, ogrovs vs. carriers.


The big three:

1) Ogrovs are immune to telekinetic push
2) Ogrovs deal more damage faster
3) Ogrovs are cheaper to field

Yes, carriers are far more versatile and come earlier in the tech tree, but the Ogrov is amazingly good at what it does for a very reasonable price.


I think cheapening them somewhat would make it so it wouldn't matter so much if you lost a few to fighters.

They pack way too much a punch as it is to make them cheaper.  You wouldn't even be able to consider starbases in the vs TEC matchup if Ogrovs were considerably more cost-effective than they are now.  Fragility be damned, they'd kill the starbase before you could blink!

Again, I just wonder what the reason is to pick ogrovs or adjudici (lol, what's the plural on that?) over bombers

Adjudicators are useful solely because they are not affected by TK push or jam weapons.  If a starbase has these abilities covering it, bombers may not work at all. 

Ogrovs, however, offer you much higher damage output than an equivalent $$$ value in bombers would.  This enables you to bring down structures and starbases very quickly.  The problem with fewer (albiet more versatile) bombers is that they won't take down the starbase as quickly, giving the enemy time to repair or shoot them down.

The Ogrov is used for one purpose alone: a quick and decisive take-down. 

Reply #871 from Sins Forums Top

@Volt- Bombers use anti-veryheavy attacks; LF use anti-heavy.

Thus, switching the Ogrov+Starfish to Heavy armor would actually be a good idea. They wouldn't get slaughtered by bombers (not very fast anyway), and they create a "web" of counters.

Since LF now counter assault cruisers, LRF must be used to protect the assault cruisers; HC or fighters must be used to overwhealm the LRF, so the assault cruiser-fielder must now field flaks/carriers w/ bombers.

It pretty much goes in a circle.

Reply #872 from Sins Forums Top

Well, I know that it doesn't do it directly as it is anti-vh, but still...  At any rate, I'm not really one way or another on this issue.  I don't use them much.  Not that I don't think they are good, its just that I don't.

Btw, its about time you got a profile picture.

Reply #873 from Sins Forums Top

1) Ogrovs are immune to telekinetic push

This is is not very important because the halcyon will destroy Ogrov's with its fighters anyway so this isn't much of an advantage.

Since LF now counter assault cruisers, LRF must be used to protect the assault cruisers; HC or fighters must be used to overwhealm the LRF, so the assault cruiser-fielder must now field flaks/carriers w/ bombers.

Good point. Like you said, this opens up more tactical options for defense and offense.

Reply #874 from Sins Forums Top

This is is not very important because the halcyon will destroy Ogrov's with its fighters anyway so this isn't much of an advantage.

The point is a Halcyon can protect the starbase from your bombers while the fighters whittle them away.  The Halcyon provides no such protection against the Ogrovs.  Yes, you can still try to kill the Ogrovs, but the starbase is taking a pounding the whole time.  That is significant.

Especially if you have fighters/flaks of your own to cover them, it's entirely possible that a force of 5 or 6 Ogrovs could down a starbase before the enemy can kill them with fighters.  A similar force of bombers, 10-12, wouldn't take out a starbase in a reasonable amount of time at all and would likely be shredded up by fighters before they got the job done, Halcyon or no Halcyon.

Reply #875 from Sins Forums Top

In my view, that still doesn't change the fact that it makes no sense in the counter system. The defender should need to respond by using different units in response to the new threat of assualt cruisers. The fact that he needs to respond to the new threat of enemy flak has got nothing to do with assualt cruiser balance.