Leauki Leauki

The Difference between Anti-Semitism and the Palestinian Cause

The Difference between Anti-Semitism and the Palestinian Cause

I am often told that there is anti-Semitism. In fact I have seen it. Almost everyone tells me that anti-Semitism is a bad thing and must be fought. In fact that point is often brought up by the same people who tell me something else as well.

They tell me that the "Palestinian Cause" is a noble cause and not related to anti-Semitism in any way; that the leaders of the Palestinian Cause and the Palestinian people have to be supported and that their fight is necessary and noble. And anyway, Israel has no reason to fight them and is the cause for the war. "We are all Hamas."

So I took the liberty of selecting a few quotes by respected leaders of the Palestinian Cause, by people celebrated by Palestinians and other Arabs today. I am here showing these quotes mixed with a few quotes by Nazis so as to present the stark difference between the evil ideology of anti-Semitism and the noble Palestinian Cause.

Of course those same people have also said other things. But Hitler also spoke about art and managed to get a few words out without sounding like a racist. So I carefully selected only those quotes that were representative of what I think could easily be mistaken for anti-Semitism.

One might argue that Zionists also make anti-Arab statements that make Zionism appear racist. But the question is whether most Jews or Israelis (or any supporters of Zionism) really consider those Zionists representative of the Zionist movement or the Jewish nation. The Arabs among the quotes were and remain respected leaders of the Palestinian Cause and are among the people I am told are our "partners" in the peace talks.

If you find a racist quote by a Zionist, I'll tell you what I think of that Zionist and I guarantee you that such a person would not have the support of a majority of Israelis or Jews.

 

And here we go: the quotes. Can you even tell who is a Nazi and who is a supporter of the noble Palestinian cause or what that cause is? Remember that we are told that the "Palestinian cause" is not about killing Jews or the destruction of Israel. And remember that the Arabs quoted are considered heroes of the Palestinian cause by Hamas and the PLO. They ARE representative of the Palestinian cause. THEY are the people you demonstrate for when you condemn Israel for fighting them.

"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood"

"The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the Israeli aggression. We welcome the battle we have long awaited. The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel."

“All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel”

“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed. Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope – to live to see the day Israel is liquidated…There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”

“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel….The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence”.

“Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse any aggression, but to initiate the act ourselves, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland of Palestine. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united. I believe that the time has come to begin a battle of anihilation.”

"We want a full scale, popular war of liberation… to destroy the Zionist enemy"

“We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel.…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel….The war with Israel is in effect since 1948.”

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map”

“Those [Israelis] who survive will remain in Palestine. I estimate that none of them will survive.”

"Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy."

"To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory."

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."


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Reply #76 Top

So now my question to you Leauki is do you or have you met any Palestinian Christians?  If so, what is their take on all this?  I know there is quite a movement over there.  This week at Thomas Road Church in VA a young Christian Palestinian couple was introduced visiting the states for just a bit before returning to the work in Israel as missionaries. 

End of quote

I have met a few.

Most of them are Arab nationalists. They support the PLO and her policies, but hate Hamas.

This year's representatives of Israel to the Eurovision Song Contest were a Jewish and a Christian Arab woman. The Arab woman is a supporter of the Jewish-Arab communist party ("Hadash") who are neutral on the whole Zionism/Arab-Nationalism thing. They are certainly not supporters of the PLO. She also spoke up against Hamas and wondered why the world had become a Hamas fan club lately.

I hope your missionaries will be successful! I truly do. I very much prefer the Evangelicals over a "Christianity" that promotes Arab nationalism and Antisemitism. I hear Protestantism has made major inroads in the Arab world lately, especially in Israel and the territories as well as in Iraq. More power to them! The local churches have pretty much abandoned Arab and Assyrian Christians in many cases.

But note that there are not many Christians left in the area. Most have fled to Europe and America some time ago and not because of Israel either. Generally those who stayed are PLO supporters or so I hear.

Within Israel some Christian Arabs join the Israeli army, but this is more common among (Muslim) Bedouins. Generally non-fundamentalist Muslims are the best local allies Israel has, next to, of course, Lebanese Catholics (who are not much like Lula).

The Arabs I have met and with whom I have shared accomodation etc. were Muslims.

 

Reply #77 Top

it's actually both Leauki.  His own (Jews) rejected Him and he was handed over to the Romans who were not overly fond of Him either but it was all instigated by the Jewish Authority.  These leaders set out to have him killed as soon as his popularity started to get in the way of their agenda. 

End of quote

I think it likely that the Jewish leadership of then was whoever was approved by the Romans.

 

Reply #78 Top

kfc posts:

Israel today, doesn't even have a quarter of that promised to them yet. It's still to come. What we are seeing today is just the beginning.
End of quote

So, folks, here is a prime example of interpreting Scripture through the Rapturist/End-times/Zionism prism.  According to KFC, God-ordained Zionist land grabs are going to continue.

 ZERMINNI POSTS:

It is you my friend who talks nonsense, I would imagin tinged with a bit to much emotion,
End of quote

Leauki's rhetoric is Zionist propaganda and Isreal damage control, but we are not supposed to notice such things...if we do, and say something disagreeable of Isreal, Zionism, Jews, etc.,  then we are speaking "nonsense" and labeled anti-Semitic.

 

 

 

 

Reply #79 Top

kfc posts:

Lots of talk about who this land belongs to and for any biblical Christian it's a no brainer. First and foremost it's God's to begin with. And he made it clear he was giving it to Abraham and to his descendants FOREVER. This was called the Abrahamic covenant and was UNconditional. If you wish, go back and read Genesis 15. Abraham even asked God "Lord how shall I know that I shall inherit it?"

It's plain to see in that Chapter that God swore fidelity to His promises and placed the obligation for their fulfillment on Himself alone. The boundaries of this land was even given to make it very clear.
End of quote

Just for clarity, here are the passages of Genesis 15 that you are referring to:

6 Abram believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. 7 And he said to him: I am the Lord who brought thee out from Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land, and that thou mightest possess it. 8 But he said: Lord God, whereby may I know that I shall possess it? ..... 13 And it was said unto him: Know thou beforehand that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land not their own, and they shall bring them under bondage, and afflict them four hundred years. 14 But I will judge the nation which they shall serve, and after this they shall come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace, and be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. 17 And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. 18 That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates. 19 The Cineans and Cenezites, the Cedmonites, 20 And the Hethites, and the Pherezites, the Raphaim also,

First, you are confusing the Abrahamic covenants.

You say that God made it clear He was giving it (the land as described here in Genesis 15) to Abraham and to his descendants FOREVER. But your assertion isn't true. The covenant God made with Abraham of the giving of this particular land as outlined in verses 16-20 was NOT FOREVER. Note: that nowhere does it say that the land would be given or possessed by Abraham's "seed" forever. 

 Second,

This Covenant of the giving of the land has already been long fulfilled.

Almighty God has already kept His promise to Abraham and to his seed of giving the land.  Scripture is clear the promises of Genesis 15:18-20 regarding that particular covenant concerning the aquisition of the promised land were completely fulfilled.

The Lord God Himself said He fulfilled them....read Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56; and Nehemias 9:7-8. It's right there....they all say the Lord God fulfilled His promise. These 3 passages cover a time span of about 1,000 years. 

Joshua 21: 41-43 ; the KJV 21:43-45, "And the LORD GOD gave to Isreal all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt in it. And He gave them peace from all nations round about; and none of their enemies durst stand against them, but were brought under their dominion. 43 Not so much as one word, which He had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass."

3Kings 8:56, "Blessed by the LORD , who hath given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He had promised: there hath not failed so much as one word of all the good things that He promised through His servant Moses."

2Esdras, alias Nehemias 9:7-8, "Thou, O LORD GOD, art He who choseth Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. 8 And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of Canaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jesubite, and of the Gerzetite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words because thou art just."

Deut. 9:5-6 also reveals that it was fulfilled becasue of the oath God made to Abraham, despite the wickedness of the Jews.

"For it is not for thy justices, and the uprightness of thy heart that thou shalt go to possess their lands: but becasue they have done wickedly, they are destroyed at thy coming in: and that the LORD might accomplish his word, which he promised by oath to thy fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Know therefore that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this excellent land in possession for thy justices, for thou art a very stiff necked people."

And we know the rest of the story....becasue of their continued disobedience, little by little God took the land away until it was completely decimated by the Roman Army led by Titus in 70AD. By that time God had had enough with the unfaithful, revolutionary Jews who preferring Barabbas over Christ told Pilate that the Jews had no king but Ceasar. Check history...Jthe zealot ews who refused to accept Christ ended up with the Talmud as their "book"....and from it, Messianic political Zionism was born.

These passages totally negate your foolish notion that Genesis 15:18-21 was fulfilled by God in the land known as the modern Zionist enterprise of Isreal.

kfc posts:

Israel today, doesn't even have a quarter of that promised to them yet. It's still to come. What we are seeing today is just the beginning.
End of quote

This is foolish Fundamentalist Zionism talk.

Christians are to be loyal to the Gospel. The only theological mandate with the Jews is the one found in the Acts of the Apostles when St.Peter addresses the men of Jerusalem at the wake of the First Christian Pentecost Day,

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you, by miracles, and wonders, and signs, which God did by him, in the midst of you, as you also know: This man, who was put into your power by the deliberate intention and foreknowledge of God, you took and had crucified by men outside the Law. You killed Him, but God raised Him to life.....For this reason the whole house of Isreal can be certain that God has made this Jesus whom you have crucified both Lord and Christ." Acts. 2:22-23

When St.Peter said this the Jews were "cut to the heart" and asked him and the Apostles what must we do?

St.Peter answered, "You must repent and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made to you and to your children and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord God will call unto Himself."  Peter went on and told the Jews to "save themselves from this perverse generation."

The Jews reacted about 3,000 were added that day.

Reply #80 Top

So, folks, here is a prime example of interpreting Scripture through the Rapturist/End-times/Zionism prism.  According to KFC, God-ordained Zionist land grabs are going to continue.

End of quote

And according to Lula, G-d lied when He made His promise to Abraham.

Oddly enough you never seem to have a problem with the Arabs claiming and taking all the land in the Middle-East. It's not "rapturist/end-times prism" when non-Jews do it... Weird.

"Going to continue"... you don't even care that your original premise ("the Jews stole the land") was wrong, as I have shown. Israel offered to return the land won in wars in exchange for peace. But only Egypt took the deal, after rejecting it for decades. And that's "land-grabbing"?

 

Leauki's rhetoric is Zionist propaganda and Isreal damage control, but we are not supposed to notice such things...if we do, and say something disagreeable of Isreal, Zionism, Jews, etc.,  then we are speaking "nonsense" and labeled anti-Semitic.

End of quote

Lula, you LIED about the Jews "stealing" the land.

There is no way you can simply sidestep that issue by blaming everything on "Zionist propaganda".

But let's turn this around: Do you have _any_ proof whatsoever for your statements about what the Zionists have done and what the Zionists want to do?

I reject any religious source (like "Pope Whomever said that all Jews are hell-bound") or statements by anti-Zionists. I want _real_ evidence. I want newspaper articles from the time in question, quotes by Zionists, ACTUAL (not time-machine-reversed) history, that sort of thing.

It will be a first for you, if you actually run with it!

 

Reply #81 Top

Leauki posts:

And according to Lula, G-d lied when He made His promise to Abraham.
End of quote

Leauki,

On the contrary, my comments in post 79 clearly show that I believe God's Word that God kept His promise of land to Abraham's seed. God said so in Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56 and Nehemias 9:7-8.

I wrote:

This Covenant of the giving of the land has already been long fulfilled.

Almighty God has already kept His promise to Abraham and to his seed of giving the land.  Scripture is clear the promises of Genesis 15:18-20 regarding that particular covenant concerning the aquisition of the promised land were completely fulfilled.

The Lord God Himself said He fulfilled them....read Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56; and Nehemias 9:7-8. It's right there....they all say the Lord God fulfilled His promise. These 3 passages cover a time span of about 1,000 years. 

 

Reply #82 Top

Almighty God has already kept His promise to Abraham and to his seed of giving the land.

End of quote

Again, this new, shorter "forever".

The fullfillment of "forever" takes a bit longer in my reading of the concept.

 

Reply #83 Top

Do you have _any_ proof whatsoever for your statements about what the Zionists have done and what the Zionists want to do?

Reply #84 Top

Oddly enough you never seem to have a problem with the Arabs claiming and taking all the land in the Middle-East.
End of quote

I know there are some evil Arab fascists (today labeled "terrorists") who want to take over the world by the sword. War is hell and that Isreal has been at war ever since its creation in 1948 was in my first comment.

My focus in this discussion has been mainly that Isreal, far from being a victim, with all its power and might, took over and occupied the land that was long settled by Palestinian families!  What of the really, real plight of the Palestinian people who lived on the land that Isreal displaced?

But let's turn this around: Do you have _any_ proof whatsoever for your statements about what the Zionists have done and what the Zionists want to do?
End of quote

Isreal is a Zionist enterprise. As far as what the Ziionists have done....look at Isreal.....Isreal has been continuously at war with her neighbors.

As far as what the Zionists want to do...well KFC has already said.... 

Israel today, doesn't even have a quarter of that promised to them yet. It's still to come. What we are seeing today is just the beginning.
End of quote

I reject any religious source
End of quote

In the case of who are "the Hebrew", "the Isrealites" and "the Jews", as well as my refutation of KFC's "Rapturist" assertion that Israel today, doesn't even have a quarter of that promised to them yet,  my religious source has been the Holy Bible.

 

 

 

Reply #85 Top

Isreal is a Zionist enterprise. As far as what the Ziionists have done....look at Isreal.....Isreal has been continuously at war with her neighbors.

End of quote

So what exactly is this "Zionist enterprise"? What has Israel done?

 

My focus in this discussion has been mainly that Isreal, far from being a victim, with all its power and might, took over and occupied the land that was long settled by Palestinian families!  What of the really, real plight of the Palestinian people who lived on the land that Isreal displaced?

End of quote

The "real plight" of a "people" that has a higher standard of living than Egyptians and who would be rich and live in peace if only they would stop their attacks is not bothering me much.

Israel has a lot of power and might but doesn't use it. If Israel did what it could do, Gaza would be glass.

 

As far as what the Zionists want to do...well KFC has already said....

End of quote

KFC has said what she believes G-d will ultimately do with Israel. KFC's beliefs do not constitute the wants of Zionists, who are merely tools in G-d's hands.

If you believe that G-d's will is the Zionist crime, I do not understand you.

If you do not believe what KFC believes, how does that mean that what KFC believes is what Zionists want?

 

In the case of who are "the Hebrew", "the Isrealites" and "the Jews", as well as my refutation of KFC's "Rapturist" assertion that Israel today, doesn't even have a quarter of that promised to them yet,  my religious source has been the Holy Bible.

End of quote

Your religious source has been decisions made by church committees.

KFC uses the Bible. You don't. This has been obvious to me and I share neither her nor your faith. Nevertheless, I have to acknowledge that KFC backs up her statements with the Bible. You don't.

Israel does indeed not control even a quarter of the land promised by G-d to Abraham and his decendants. But that doesn't mean that Zionists demand or aspire to control all that land. It's is simply a statement of fact. And it is perhaps KFC's belief that G-d will eventually increase the size of Israel to cover all that land. It's still not Zionist position. It's just what will happen if KFC turns out to be correct.

I don't need a religious source to argue that Middle-Eastern Jews have to live SOMEWHERE, that Middle-Eastern Jews are, like all minorities in the Middle-East, targets of Arab nationalists, that the Jews BOUGHT (not stole) the land they live on and won more land in wars they didn't want or start, that Hebrew is a Canaanite language related to Phoenician and that Jews are the native people of southern Canaan, related to the Lebanese (Phoenicians).

I also don't need a religious source to point out that the majority of the Middle-East and North-Africa had been handed over to Arab control and that this has not done a lot for the local populations, especially those who aren't Arab.

And I don't need a religious source to support ALL minorities in the Middle-East and North-Africa, including Jews.

If you doubt any of these or are against them, you can surely find a non-religious source for why something I said is wrong.

 

 

Reply #86 Top

As far as what the Ziionists have done....look at Isreal.....Isreal has been continuously at war with her neighbors.

End of quote

So the Zionists have survived several wars of extermination.

That's the big crime?

 

Reply #87 Top

leauki posts:

Again, this new, shorter "forever".

The fullfillment of "forever" takes a bit longer in my reading of the concept.
End of quote

Don't confuse the Abrahamic convenants.

Genesis 15 says that specific lands would be given...nothing there about given forever and nothing there stating the land would be possessed by Abraham's seed forever.

 


Reply #88 Top

If you believe that G-d's will is the Zionist crime, I do not understand you.
End of quote

I believe the Zionist's crimes are sins against God so obviously they are not God's will.

I believe  KFC's false Rapturist interpretation of Sacred Scripture is helping feed the fire of political Zionism.

You are a political Zionist....You tell us what political Zionism wants...and don't say "peace" because Isreal has been at war ever since day one of its creation.

 

 

 

Reply #89 Top

This Covenant of the giving of the land has already been long fulfilled.
End of quote

no it hasn't.  The land described with specific boundaries in Gen 15 has not been fulfilled.  I notice you put down scriptures but you ignored 1 Kings 4:21 which states:

"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines and unto the border of Egypt....

notice anything? 

Solomon reigned over ALMOST all the territory promised to Abraham the most land they ever controlled.   Compare back to Gen 15 and observe that the RIVER of Egypt (Nile) there and the BORDER of Egypt here are NOT the same.  They never had control of Egypt but we can see that it was promised to Abraham back in Gen 15.  And...the river Euphrates is found in Iraq and we know that they don't control that today do they?  But they will...and will forever. 

You say that God made it clear He was giving it (the land as described here in Genesis 15) to Abraham and to his descendants FOREVER. But your assertion isn't true. The covenant God made with Abraham of the giving of this particular land as outlined in verses 16-20 was NOT FOREVER. Note: that nowhere does it say that the land would be given or possessed by Abraham's "seed" forever.
End of quote

nothing there about given forever and nothing there stating the land would be possessed by Abraham's seed forever.

End of quote

well it was GIVEN by God.  Soooooo God takes it back?  Takes his unconditional promise back?  He said Abraham's seed would INHERIT this land.  Did they give it away or give it back?  Can they even do that? 

Go over to 17:8 (two chapters later) and read this:

"And I will give to you and to your seed after thee the land wherein you are a stranger, ALL the land of Canaan for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God." 

What does everlasting mean to you?  or how about go two chapters the other way and read this:

"For all the land which you see, to you will I give it and to your seed FOREVER.  Gen 13:15 

does FOREVER here do?   Wait.  You just said that God doesn't give land forever.  Hmmm that's not what scriptures say. 

I believe KFC's false Rapturist interpretation of Sacred Scripture is helping feed the fire of political Zionism.
End of quote

you keep saying this...at least three times just on this one page alone.  What in the world does the rapture have to do with this?  This is nothing but an attack on me Lula when you can't back up your belief system thoroughly.   You're attacking my belief in the rapture when it's not even the subject matter here?   Every Christian I know believes in some sort of rapture because it is biblical.  They may not agree on the exact terms but the rapture is biblical and has NOTHING to do with this conversation. 

Everytime I back up my statements up with scripture you go on the attack because...it goes against the belief system of the RCC which is very anti-semetic and begrudges Israel and her inheritance.  It doesn't matter because when God makes these promises he doesn't back out of them.  Israel will get the land in its entirety in the future. 

 

 

 

 

Reply #90 Top

 

lula posts:

This Covenant of the giving of the land has already been long fulfilled.
End of quote

kfc posts:

no it hasn't.
End of quote

Yes,it has and you, kFC need to stop persisting in ignoring the plain reading of Scripture that clearly teaches God fulfilled His promise of land given to Abraham's seed.

 

Joshua 21: 41-43 ; the KJV 21:43-45, "And the LORD GOD gave to Isreal all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt in it. And He gave them peace from all nations round about; and none of their enemies durst stand against them, but were brought under their dominion. 43 Not so much as one word, which He had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass."

3Kings 8:56, "Blessed by the LORD , who hath given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He had promised: there hath not failed so much as one word of all the good things that He promised through His servant Moses."

2Esdras, alias Nehemias 9:7-8, "Thou, O LORD GOD, art He who choseth Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. 8 And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of Canaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jesubite, and of the Gerzetite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words because thou art just."

Drop the Rapturiswt/Fundamenatlist Zionism ideology that drives your reading and interpretation of Scripture....rather, read these passages carefully for true meaning... Note the blue...God kept His promise....ALL the land was given and they possessed it and dwelt in it.

 

 

Reply #91 Top

Huh, interesting stuff Lula. That being said, I strongly believe that this, like most things, comes down to perception/beliefs and the varying degrees that a book, any book, can be interpreted. In fact there's a group, and I can't remember which one, that believes that some of the early scriptures are false; there's another who believe that...ugh, I think it was Abraham....was a false prophet. (Coming from distant memory, don't quote me on the exact words though the gist of it is fairly accurate)

 

~AJ

Reply #92 Top

I notice you put down scriptures but you ignored 1 Kings 4:21 which states:

"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines and unto the border of Egypt....

notice anything?

Solomon reigned over ALMOST all the territory promised to Abraham the most land they ever controlled. Compare back to Gen 15 and observe that the RIVER of Egypt (Nile) there and the BORDER of Egypt here are NOT the same. They never had control of Egypt but we can see that it was promised to Abraham back in Gen 15. And...the river Euphrates is found in Iraq and we know that they don't control that today do they? But they will...and will forever.
End of quote

Well, you didn't notice those Scriptures I cited carefully for if you had, you would realize they settle the matter. Joshua 21: 41-43; 3 Kings 8:56 and Nehemias 9:7-8  are proof texts that Almighty God fulfilled the giving of the land.

This passage you quoted and your explanation of it by apoplying it to modern day Isreal....is you interpeting Scripture through the Rapturist-end time/Fundamentalist Zionist prism.

Btw, Douay Rheims has 1Kings 4:21 as

 

21 And she called the child Ichabod, saying: The glory is gone from Israel, because the ark of God was taken, and for her father in law, and her husband: 22 And she said: The glory is departed from Israel, because the ark of God was taken.

 

 

Reply #93 Top

leauki posts:

I don't need a religious source to argue that Middle-Eastern Jews have to live SOMEWHERE,
End of quote

As I read this, Zergimmi's earlier post came to mind:

 

On the whole Israel has not acted as a good citizen, since it's inception it has been at war and is still at war.

Anyone who thinks the treatment of Palestinians by Israel is fair and warrented needs to take a reality check, who would you react if the UN took your home away and gave it to someone else?
End of quote

So what exactly is this "Zionist enterprise"? What has Israel done?
End of quote

Isreal's Zionist apologists and propagandists tell the world that no matter what or who is harmed, when it comes to Isreal, the ends justify the means.

 

Reply #94 Top

Lula,

you can give me verse after verse but you have yet to answer the "forever" or the "everlasting" part of the covenant.  When God told Abraham and later the Israelites this land was theirs for ever he meant it.   There are two things here.  One is the land of Canaan and the rest outlined in Gen 15 is a much larger territory and very similar to the description of the Garden of Eden. 

"For ALL the land which you see to you will I give it and to your seed forever." 

Pretty clear Lula.  Let me say it again...FOREVER...and FOREVER to God is a very very long time. 

Somewhere I have a complete modern description of each of these territories.  The land promised originally to Abraham (chap 15) includes a vast area including parts or whole of Iraq, Jordan, Turkey Egypt, Syria not to mention Israel as we know it today. 

Now go to Judges chap 1 (after death of Joshua) and explain to me v1-2 if everything was already fulfilled as spoken to Abraham (not Moses) as you are thinking. 

What land are they talking about here?  You may wish to go over and read (before your beloved Joshua 21) and read this in chap 11:23

"So Joshua took the whole land according to all that the Lord said to Moses and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes.  And the land rested from war. 

Whole land?  Hey how can that be when you go to the very next chapter?  Now go over to 13:1 and read this: 

"Now Joshua was old and stricken in years and the Lord said to him, you are old and stricken in years and there remains yet VERY MUCH Land to be possessed." 

 

 Giving me scriptures from 3rd Kings (we don't have 3rd Kings for one thing) saying everything he promised to Moses was done doesn't cut it either because there is a Abrahamic covenant and a Mosiac covenant and they're different covenants. 

and...you still didn't answer my question...what does the rapture have to do with all of this? 

 

 

Reply #95 Top

Isreal's Zionist apologists and propagandists tell the world that no matter what or who is harmed, when it comes to Isreal, the ends justify the means.

End of quote

Correction: When it comes to defending life, shooting at the attacker is necessary. There is no justification needed.

Now name three countries that didn't harm anyone when defending themselves.

Remember that I am from Germany and that my (German) family lost a house to the communists and some relatives to American bombs. So please don't tell me that Israel is unique in harming people when fighting a war or that annexation of land in war is some sort of weird Zionist crime never perpetrated by anybody else.

Also, you still owe me the evidence for all the accusations you made against Israel.

 

 

Reply #96 Top

Let me say it again...FOREVER...and FOREVER to God is a very very long time

End of quote

Same reading here.

This is not even about religion. Whether you believe in the Bible or G-d or not, "forever" is what it says. So if the Bible is true, "forever" it is.

And note that this is still not what Zionists want or demand, despite Lula's claim. (The only "evidence" she had for what the Zionists want is KFC's religious belief.)

What Zionists want is outlined here: https://forums.joeuser.com/367083

 

 

Reply #97 Top

When it comes to defending life, shooting at the attacker is necessary.
End of quote

 

There's a point where it goes beyond merely defending yourself or your country/family. There's a point where you begin to use that noble concept as a justification for any over step, miscues, etc. Israel has gone past that a number of times in my opinion. What's the more reasonable/rational concept: Israel is being conspired against by the vast majority of the world so that they're always wrong and so on, or just maybe they have made mistakes and need to own up to them. Defense or not....no one, not even Israel, is perfect.

And yeah yeah, call me anti-semitic all you want; honestly, I don't give a fuck. I know who I am and am not, and your opinion doesn't matter on that topic. 

 

~AJ

Reply #98 Top

I've never called myself a Zionist nor am I interested in doing so.  Lula seems to need titles.  I'm a biblicist or evangelical Christian.  The bible is all I need.  I feel that I'm being objective here especially in this discussion.  Lula comes here with a bias of anti-semitism from the RCC and Leauki you are one who has a heart for the Nation as  a Jew and are biased (and rightly so) because of your heritage.   I'm just reading the scriptures and can see plainly that God has a plan not only for the people but the land as well.  I have no money at stake here. 

 The land (Israel) and the people (Jews) have always been attached. 

When we have to go outside of the bible for spiritual revealed things from God then we're saying the bible is insufficient.  I believe it's all right there.  We may have to search it out but it's all there for any who have eyes to see and ears to hear. 

It's quite clear that there is a purpose for the land and for the people in the latter days as ithe prophets say.  If not, the Jews wouldn't even be in their land today as they are and we wouldn't be having this discussion.  It's not a coincidence that Israel became a nation in 1948.  We are very close to something happening.  Something is going to bust wide open and I believe it's very soon. 

What Lula is saying makes no sense when you read Ezekiel and Zechariah.  Both teach that Israel will possess their own land first when the nations come up against it.  There's no history to back them up...as of yet.  But we could be fast approaching the time when prophecy meets up with us and we will see history in the making like we did in 1948. 

 

 

 

Reply #99 Top

kfc posts:

Lots of talk about who this land belongs to and for any biblical Christian it's a no brainer. First and foremost it's God's to begin with. And he made it clear he was giving it to Abraham and to his descendants FOREVER. This was called the Abrahamic covenant and was UNconditional. .....read Genesis 15. Abraham even asked God "Lord how shall I know that I shall inherit it?"
It's plain to see in that Chapter that God swore fidelity to His promises and placed the obligation for their fulfillment on Himself alone. The boundaries of this land was even given to make it very clear.
End of quote

Lula,

you can give me verse after verse but you have yet to answer the "forever" or the "everlasting" part of the covenant. When God told Abraham and later the Israelites this land was theirs for ever he meant it. There are two things here. One is the land of Canaan and the rest outlined in Gen 15 is a much larger territory and very similar to the description of the Garden of Eden.
End of quote

KFC,

A couple of things...

As far as the debate over whether or not God fulfilled His promise of the giving of all the land of Canaan and that of Genesis 15, I'll hang my hat on God's Word found in Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56 (1 Samuel) ; and 2 Esdras 9:7-8 (Nehemias)  which all say the Lord God fulfilled His His part of the covenant. These 3 passages cover a time span of about 1,000 years.

As far as the word "forever" ....your mistake is thinking God's giving of the land is unconditional...when it wasn't...

God fulfilled His promise..He gave the land of Canaan (later come to be known as Palestine) as well as Egypt, and all the land in Genesis 15.

Genesis 13: 12-13; 15   Abram dwelt in the land of Chanaan; and Lot abode .... 14 And the Lord said to Abram, .... Lift up thy eyes, and look from the place wherein thou now art, to the north and to the south, to the east and to the west. 15 All the land which thou seest, I will give to thee, and to thy seed for ever.

Genesis 17:8  And I will give to thee, and to thy seed, the land of thy sojournment, all the land of Chanaan for a perpetual possession, and I will be their God. 

 

"and to thy seed forever" Even Abraham's posterity never enjoyed itr, at least for any long time.

 

"a perpetual possession" will last as long as they remain obedient...."and I will be their God"..was God's condition...we know trhat they turned to idolatry and so in time they lost the land.

Genesis 13 and 17 here are already fulfilled according to Joshua 21: 41-43 :

41 And the Lord God gave to Israel all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers: and they possessed it and dwelt in it. 42 And he gave them peace from all nations round about: and none of their enemies durst stand against them, but were brought under their dominion. 43 Not so much as one word, which he had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass.

We know who Abraham's seed was in the days of the OT. But after Christ, who is Abraham's seed as far as his descendants?  Is it those Jews who do not accept Christ? Christ answers no.  Rather Abraham's descendants are those who imitate the faith of Abraham.

 

Genesis 15: 16-21 " But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. 17 And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. 18 That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates. 19 The Cineans and Cenezites, the Cedmonites, 20 And the Hethites, and the Pherezites, the Raphaim also, 21 And the Amorrhites, and the Chanaanites, and the Gergesites, and the Jebusites.

Verse 18 denotes very specific identifications of land...and according to 2 Esdras 9:7-8 (Nehemias ) the giving of the land including Canaan was fulfilled to the letter..." Thou, O Lord God, art he who chosest Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. 8 And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of the Chanaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jebusite, and of the Gergezite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words, because thou art just.

kfc posts 89

no it hasn't. The land described with specific boundaries in Gen 15 has not been fulfilled. I notice you put down scriptures but you ignored 1 Kings 4:21 which states:

"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines and unto the border of Egypt....

notice anything?

Solomon reigned over ALMOST all the territory promised to Abraham the most land they ever controlled. Compare back to Gen 15 and observe that the RIVER of Egypt (Nile) there and the BORDER of Egypt here are NOT the same. They never had control of Egypt but we can see that it was promised to Abraham back in Gen 15.
End of quote

turns out your 1Kings 4:21 is for me is 3kings 4:21.and about the same wording....21 And Solomon had under him all the kingdoms from the river to the land of the Philistines, even to the border of Egypt: and they brought him presents, and served him, all the days of his life.

Go to 2 Paralipomenon 9:25-26 (2 Chronicles) and that may clear things up.

25 And Solomon had forty thousand horses in the stables, and twelve thousand chariots, and horsemen, and he placed them in the cities of the chariots, and where the king was in Jerusalem. 26 And he exercised authority over all the kings from the river Euphrates to the land of the Philistines, and to the borders of Egypt.

An other point as far as Egypt is concerned, the Hebrews were in Egypt for 4 centuries "beforehand".  Genesis 15: 12-16; 17-21.

12 And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. 13 And it was said unto him: Know thou beforehand that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land not their own, and they shall bring them under bondage, and afflict them four hundred years. 14 But I will judge the nation which they shall serve, and after this they shall come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace, and be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. 17 And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. 18 That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates. 19 The Cineans and Cenezites, the Cedmonites, 20 And the Hethites, and the Pherezites, the Raphaim also, 21 And the Amorrhites, and the Chanaanites, and the Gergesites, and the Jebusites.

Gen. 50: 22-23 confirms this as well.

22 And he dwelt in Egypt with all his father's house: and lived a hundred and ten years. And he saw the children of Ephraim to the third generation. The children also of Machir the son of Manasses were born on Joseph's knees. 23 After which he told his brethren: God will visit you after my death, and will make you go up out of this land, to the land which he swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  

Reply #100 Top

kfc posts 89

no it hasn't. The land described with specific boundaries in Gen 15 has not been fulfilled. I notice you put down scriptures but you ignored 1 Kings 4:21 which states:



"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines and unto the border of Egypt....



notice anything?



Solomon reigned over ALMOST all the territory promised to Abraham the most land they ever controlled. Compare back to Gen 15 and observe that the RIVER of Egypt (Nile) there and the BORDER of Egypt here are NOT the same. They never had control of Egypt but we can see that it was promised to Abraham back in Gen 15.
End of quote

One more point regarding the extent of the land of Solomon.....

Here's your 1Kings 4:21.....my 3Kings 4:21-26....

21 And Solomon had under him all the kingdoms from the river to the land of the Philistines, even to the border of Egypt: and they brought him presents, and served him, all the days of his life. 22 And the provision of Solomon for each day was thirty measures of fine flour, and threescore measures of meal, 23 Ten fat oxen and twenty out of the pastures, and a hundred rams, besides venison of harts, roes, and buffles, and fatted fowls. 24 For he had all the country which was beyond the river, from Thaphsa to Gazan, and all the kings of those countries: and he had peace on every side round about. 25 And Juda and Israel dwelt without any fear, every one under his vine, and under his fig tree, from Dan to Bersabee, all the days of Solomon.

You cited V 21, but you must take vers. 24 into consideration to get the full scope..... The river is the Euphrates and "to the land of the Philistines, even to the border of Egypt, denotes Solomon's land extended not only as far as Gaza but also to the branch of the River Nile (v. 24.). This one verse explains the other.

Now take the point made in 2 Paralipomenon 9:25-26 (2 Chronicles) ...and verse 26 ...

25 And Solomon had forty thousand horses in the stables, and twelve thousand chariots, and horsemen, and he placed them in the cities of the chariots, and where the king was in Jerusalem. 26 And he exercised authority over all the kings from the river Euphrates to the land of the Philistines, and to the borders of Egypt.

From this we understand that Solomon had all the kings of Syria, Ammon, the Philistines, etc. under him. This means without doubt that his empire took in all that had been promised to Abraham and confirms Joshua 21 as the fulfillment.