I'm not the one having difficulty killing QoT/Sed teams.

Demigod doesn't use a Rock/paper/scissors approach when balancing indivdual Demigods as a whole and so the method of reasoning you've detailed doesn't apply here. The balance system used is more of an ability balance per Demigod; Regulus isn't a direct counter to Rook despite being the exact opposite play style, which in the R/P/S system wouldn't be the case. Unclean Beast with Spit is a fair counter to Tower Rook, but nowhere near as good against Hammer/Slam Rook with speed items. The builds themselves are balanced with their abilities - not the Demigod as a whole. Unclean Beast for example, has Spit - a powerful Ranged attack despite him being a Melee heavy character which, again, wouldn't be the case in a R/P/S system. Add in the addition of items, and it helps lessen the effectiveness of Build counters and places a greater emphasis on smart play and team work.


You've contradicted yourself here by listing X and Y as counters, then stating there are no Demigod counters as such, rather Counter builds. As you'll haven't noticed, thats exactly what I'm saying - the problem I have is with the Builds, not Demigods themselves. So I'm not sure what you're attempting to argue here, but you need to be more consistant in your arguments.

Anyway, the problem isn't stacking Demigods, it's in stacking builds. I've already gone through this, but I'll detail it again in the hope you understand better. We'll look at Snipe. The ability, based on it's atributes, is most effective when used as a finishing tool - Snipe a fleeing enemy, as the further away you are the more damage you do. It can also be used to help bring down a Demigod someone else is attacking. This is clearly the abilities intended purpose - long range, modest damage. Let's add four more snipes into the picture. You now, if all are the same builds, have 5 long range attacks all doing modest damage. If they focus fire a single opponent, depending on that persons HP stacking but regardless of their build, they have a real chance of being able to take them down without placing a single person on their team at risk of any kind. This is not what Snipe was intended to do - it's no longer used as a long range finish tool, rather a long range method of wiping out a single player. This is where my complaint comes from. Take any Demigod defining ability - Towers, Snipe, Hammerslam, Spit, Heal, Ooze, Pounce, Fireball, etc - and multiply it's effectiveness by the number of people stacking a build off of which the ability forms the base and you have a problem. 40 Towers on a single map? Good luck with that. 5 times the surviveability of Sedna's Heal? Hope you like losing. 5 Snipes? Hope you weren't planning on doing anything other than running back and forth from the Health Crystal. Detail counters to these types of build stacking and you'll notice you're forced to play specific with methods to stand a chance - only a handful (more than one, another way of saying multiple, as in several combinations - as in not a R/P/S system) of combinations would work. And if use of items enable the ability stacking team to counter their supposed 'counters' then we have a real problem on our hands.


Perhaps if you spent more time understanding their complaints and less time trying to insult them you might understand their position.

If a stacked team is just as fine as a normal mixed team, where's the harm is allowing people to disallow them in their games? It's just another team combination right? So what's the big deal? House rules, and all that.

I'm surprised to see you write this, since my entire post was spent trying to explain this very concept to you, who insisted that on the bad-ness of two "scissors" being able to overcome one "rock." So uh, we agree. DG is not really a RPS game, which means there is no RPS system of counters that comes crashing down when doubles (builds) are introduced the equation. 

Snipe is the one and only ability in the game that I think is slightly problematic in that respect, and only if there are 4 or 5 of them. Any less and its not. Other than 5 snipes, your claim that "demigod-defining abilities" ("DGDA) become stronger when combined with themselves as opposed to different DG-defining abilities is unsubstantiated. You can take two different DGDAs and be just as powerful and more flexible than just stacking the same DGDA. If you've lost before to stacked DGDAs, then I surmise that was far more to do with you being outplayed then the double.

This goes back to what I was saying before, scrubs misattribute their loss to some breach of protocol which should be banned, where in fact there was no breach and they simply were defeated by a strategy that they have arbitrarily determined to be objectionable. 

Sorry, I should have been more explicit with where I refer to builds and DGs. But if we were to get very specific, we should actually be referring to "skills and tactics." Certain skills and and tactics counter other skills and tactics. Certain skills and tactics are resident to specific builds. Every build is tied to a specific demigod. Because of the wide variety of skills and tactics available on each DG, it is difficult to imagine that within a reasonably sized game one could invent a doubled team of DGs that make a certain DG completely unviable for the enemy team, therefore introducing an element of pre-match RPS. This, combined with the failure of the "imba stacking DGDA claim" leads to the conclusion that doubles are fine. 

Oh I don't care what people do in their own custom games. To me this is more an argument about what the standardized rules for a hypothetical team automatch feature should be. 

The 5v5 maps are huge, if you put all of your Sednas in one place to heal each other, you would lose. If you put all your towers in one place, you would also lose. You would have something more like a 2v2 on one side and a 3v3 on the other.

I agree with Facet, the only ability that could cause issues is snipe, due to its lane-crossing range, and even then I'm not sure a decent team couldn't deal with it.

If you play 5v5 on prison maybe this sort of stuff will crop up, but in a real game its unlikely the entire team will run around in a big squad because you need to hold the map to win.

Personally I'd prefer a team that has access to a number of abilities to one that's horribly stacked: how is a 5 Sedna team going to kill anything with no snare and no stun? How are the rooks going to maintain any map dominance? The varied teams will beat the stacked ones hands down in a proper match up because each character can play to their strengths, while a stacked team will need people on their team to take roles their avatars arent suited to.

 

 

Not quite. Snipe, as used in my example, would be capable of bringing down any Demigod regardless of Build. To counter this Snipe Stacking, you'd be forced to play a specific way - stacking HP, for example - and any Demigod who enhances this play style becomes the preferable Demigod to handle the situation. Instead of every Demigod being viable with room for variation, we have a much more limited number of viable combinations. This is my main issue.




Actually I lost because I was fighting against three Sednas who were quite capable of walking through a Rook tower farm, UB's Spit and our the front of our base despite excellent team work and timed use of Stuns on my Teams behalf. We simply didn't get any kills for the duration of the match due to their surviveability being far higher than any other combination of Demigods could provide. Focus firing down any one of them was impossible when two heals later the one we had wasted our Mana on was back to full health and the three of us were now OOM. As for stacking two different DGDAs to achieve the same effects, show me any that have the same Damage Output over the same Range as two Snipes focus firing, two that can restore as much health as quickly as Heal, two that can enable as much shepparding as 16 Rooks towers. The fact is, stacking the two abilities works amazing at it's purpose; extending the benefits of those abilities. Each DGDA is a DGDA because it's the best at it's intended purpose.


Why do you feel the need to call them 'scrubs'? I disagree with the intentional use of stacked Demigod abilties to alter the teams chances of winning. Why does this make me a 'scrub'?
You clearly feel that the old "any excuse'll do" approach stands true here because you believe you have a far better understanding of the underlying mechanics and are able to win where these 'scrubs' fail because you're better at the game in general. I find this to be a gross underestimate of the points put forth in this thread. I feel they're complaining because there is something wrong here, and you don't agree with it because you don't have a better understanding of the underlying mechanics, rather a lack of understanding.


Actually, a team with two capable Sednas where the other characters are any other mixture against a team with one Sedna's is going to have vastly superior surviveability. The question possed is whether or not that additional surviveability is against the intended purposes of the game. In a 5v5 situation, I'd say absolutely not. It's quite acceptable. However, let's raise the number of stacked Demigods. Say, 5 surviveability build Sednas. Working together. Now, we have a problem. Now, let's lower the number of total players. 3v3. 3 surviveability Sednas VS a complete mixture of Demigods. The problem remains. Sufficent stackong of any one Demigod build creates too much of an advantage at it's purpose - if played correctly, including item use, the build is too good for it be considered balanced in the grand scheme of things. I'm not talking about two Tower Rooks in a 5v5, thanks to the larger number of players we're seeing the benefits minimised. Increase the stack to 5 however, the problem becomes magnified.


The standardised rule should be simple; you get matched into the appropriate team taking into consideration your skill and choice of Demigod. If I were to be auto-matched into a team facing off against 3 Sednas, for example, I'd apologise to everyone and concede. Being as we have 8 Demigods and, realistically, 3 team slots to fill, we shouldn't really have to see stacked Demigods.

I thought the point of the proposed team automatch was that you wouldn't have team placement for randoms, it would consist entirely of premade teams and match them against each other. No need for DG stacking rules in that kind of game.

You're talking about Pantheon or Skirmish where the DG choice isn't sorted out by the team beforehand.

Sorry, I misread the question. My fault.

I believe a No-Demigod stacking policy should apply, for the resons I've already stated.

I personally think doubles are great in Dg and enjoy the added possibilities. 

The simple reailty is this.  Realistically, some combinations of dgs give an advantage.  But ONLY if the people using those Dgs know how to exploit them.  And most people DO NOT.  Even if you + 1 guy will aways win with 2 UBs does not mean that all UB players are equal and can capitolize on the benefits.  It's just a silly argument.  I could join a game, see that I'm fighting x Dg and DG.  Now, me and my partner have to decide.  Who should we pick to counter them?  Experience and skill with provide the answer.  So, if you have to fight 2 regs, what should you do to win?  Etc.  Granted, its easier just to say NO DOUBLES, but I'd rather say, who should you choose if 2 UB vs you?  Some will say, that matchup is ok while other will say OP.  I say, give it a shot.  If I play with the same people daily, I'd say, no its not fair if you have 2 erbs against my best, but that may only be a reasonable argument against my friends.  For others, they could pick 2 erbs and I could crush them. 

Here's a quick recap of a game I had a few days ago.  it was 3v3 random dgs.  The 3 on my team were regs.  We all got level 1 snipe + wrath.  So, with wrath alone, we could instantly do 750 damage to the first person we see.  Add on 250+ damage snipe per reg = another 750.  Factor in that addtional damage occurs the further away the snipe... lets at least another 200 dmg (though its prob at least 500+).  So, immediately, we can do 1700 to any character in sight.  A tb with a fairly standard build has 1810 health at level 1.   Now, factor in that we probably are close enough to hit with standard attack one of those characters... and we probably have another regulas with us.  Well, it amounts to 3 regs kicking butt.  Its not impossible to defeat, but definitely tough.  Anyway, my team was delighted to destroy with coordinated attacks character after character.  Was 3 v 3 reg unfair?  Yes.  You'd have to have a near perfect team to defeat us (or at least a team knowing that blood of the fallen + a potion is a must).  But, it was a random dg game and was a blast. 

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/742780/player/28414/ 3v3 3 reg v others

As a quick aside - I really enjoy getting a chance to play with everyone who's an active member of the forums.  I hope to see you in my games and hope to get an invite into yours.  Thanks to everyone that's joined me or given an invite!  I've crushed some of you and been beaten by others.  Always fun.  Thanks for building the community!

I'd wonder if the players on the other side would agree?

Anyway, what region of the world are you from Pac? I'm Australian myself.

heh... no they wouldn't.  But still... see my post (updated)

US - Ohio.  But I have no lag playing against players like yourself and hope we can get a game on.  I've played with AUS, BR, and RU alike without lag. 

Incidently regardingly lag - I play with a few peeps from brazil on a fairly regular basis now.  They often have 270-310 pings to me.  No lag.  Ever.  And tonight, I played a game with them and someone from NZ (who had 400 ping).  No lag as well.  Whoever came up with the 300 ping = lag deal should have discussed it with me. 

Actually, a team with two capable Sednas where the other characters are any other mixture against a team with one Sedna's is going to have vastly superior surviveability. The question possed is whether or not that additional surviveability is against the intended purposes of the game. In a 5v5 situation, I'd say absolutely not. It's quite acceptable. However, let's raise the number of stacked Demigods. Say, 5 surviveability build Sednas. Working together. Now, we have a problem. Now, let's lower the number of total players. 3v3. 3 surviveability Sednas VS a complete mixture of Demigods. The problem remains.

Let's theorycraft a bit on your 3 sedna team that can't be beat. Take 3 classes that can outdamage sedna's heals (lets say 1 minion erebus, 1 frost TB, and 1 regulus), and lets all have them fight.

Even with heals perfectly timed so as not to overlap, a sedna will be killed if they don't run.

Sedna has no way of stunning or otherwise catching any of my team.

Sedna kills towers less effectively than erebus and regulus.

Sedna kills creeps less effectively than TB and regulus.

My team can AoE stun/freeze/slow/damage, which sedna's are bound to be if they are supporting each other with heals, but work just as well against one.



A strictly better team would replace a sedna for stunning and killing (spit UB) so that they could at least catch something.
I would argue personally that replacing a second sedna for a regulus to slow and counter erebus would be advisable as well. 

(5 sedna's follow the same arguement just as well) 

miya... see my post (4 above).  I think my real life reg example covers super sed.  They'd HAVE to be perfect to beat lev 1 regs.  Its just a silly argument. 

Not gonna lie, I'd love to play a doubles match against dual Regs, it would make life interesting with all the yelling and unnecessary swearing....lol it really would be fun to see what happened though

My point EXACTLY.  Try out the combinations and have some fun.  2 EXPERT players v 2 OK players should win regardless of the combo.  2 EXPERT players v 2 EXPERT players  would eventually see that clearly 2 x demigods v 2 x demigods have an advantage.  And as NONE OF US are perfect with all characters, its a moot argument.  IMO, of course. 

Again the clueless underestimate the power of meow.

5 sednas = 5 pounce (dealing 5k damage tops, and each also beling an interrupt)
5 sednas = 5 silence (also interrupt + prevents other abilities..)
each sedna gets a +15% speed bonus from skills alone

The only DG that has a real chance of evading a well built sedna, let alone 5 sednas is erebus with its bat swarm. Or maybe a frost TB..

As for the rest of the thread: Come on people.. you still dont realize do ya? Its not even about balance. It is a simple powergamers vs casual players argument. Some people simply want to have fun. Playing against demigod combinations that are way out of proportions compared to other combinations (and yes.. this does not only mean doubles) is simply not fun. While looking for strong combinations is a big part of competitive play.. lets realize this: most of the online games.. the random ones.. are not competitive in this sense.. they are randoms vs randoms who just want to have some fun.

When you play a team with your team.. a pre arranged match. thats when real competitiveness comes into play and seriously you will not likely see people whining about your build there.

As for casual players: they will always play by their own rules. Whether you like it or not. Whining about it will not change that, especially if your best argument to convince them is that "they are noobs who just do not know how to play the game".

You're assuming you run around in a giant pack of 5, which I already pointed out would lose you the game anyway due to no map control. You could make the same argument for any character in a pack of 5.

 

the most stupid and sensless rule ever: no doubles!

 

only because some people think it could be op. it never had been extensivly tested. ofcourse first time you try e.g. a 5 sedna team you probably will win. but not because they are op but because it is very unusual and need different tactics!

I do not assume anything.. Sednas are just as powerful in triple and double combinations as well. That they can't instapounce you to death does not change the fact, that your chances of running away from a sedna are slim at best.

In DG, speed = both survival and kills. The fact that you can choose which battles to fight and which to evade can easily be the difference between victory and defeat. Also the fact that you can outlast about any single DG in meelee and have a pretty decent burst/interrupt as well, not to mention minions would mean that as long as there are equal number of DGs fighting on each side, the enemy has no chance beating you. Maybe if they are extremely heavy on stuns and burst damage then they do stand a chance.

You realize tho, that the simple fact that you need a very specific DG combination to even stand a chance beating those sednas predestines you to struggle throughout the game.

So the game will not be fun and thats why most casual gamers just do not want to play on these terms. The rule may be stupid even senseless, but that does not change the rule. Its their game, so its their terms. If you do not like them, just host a game of your own.

Now the question is this: why do you REALLY care? Why make this such a big issue? Right now, doubles are not banned from the game.. if anything, the only thing you can achieve is that GPG/SD will ban them.. after all.. they can't do more than make them possible in the first place, which they already did.. so the only possible change that could come from this thread is banning them or making them somehow impossible / penalized.

I pretty much see this thread as an own goal in this regard.

You are seriously acting like the spoiled kid on the playground, who couldnt have the whole sandbox all for himself.

you realize though that 5 sednas already ARE a VERY VERY SPECIFIC DG combination? why shouldn't it be needed to conter this with some special dg combinations too?

 

and for the rest of your post i don't agree nether, more or less.

 

you see your oponents dg selection before you enter the match. select a good counter combination. that's part of strategie! and in most cases you won't have to change much but of course you probably will have to change your build/items.

 

edit: or take some erebus with minions builds and horn. i heard they are so op that you can destroy their citadell even if you are losing dg battels. no need for restricting doubles! all part of strategie!

 

edit2: i wonder if ooze of to ubs stack. if so two ooze ubs would be enough to counter them all

It has nothing to do with need.. is that so hard to understand? It is a simple fact of how people want to play.

I'm pretty sure there are hosts who ask even sedna/qot combos to change as they do not like to play against them. Its their right as being the host. They set the rules. You dont like it, go play with someone else.

Noone is forcing you to play in games where the no doubles rule is being enforced. It is you who gets upset about how others dare to limit your choices.. guess where my analogy about the spolied kid and the sandbox comes from.

Theres plenty of room for all in this sandbox.. go and build your own sand castle in your own little corner and do not step on that of the other kids just because they didnt let you build your right next to theirs.

This thread needs more Sirlin!

Crying about doubles. Words can not describe how pathetic this is.

i never denied the host to set there rules. everybody can set the rules how they want it when they host.

edit: but YOU are arguing with the NEED of restricting doubles. that's what i counter. you don't like doubles? fine but don't tell me this needed because otherwise you were forced to some very strange dg combinations. this is simply false!

 

but i find this rule quite stupid in sensless. you relly do not have to change your dg combination to coounter doubles even not 5 sednas. but in general it's not a question to counter 5 sednas. we are talking of doubles, that menas there are 1 or 2 dgs double which never is an issue except in your fantasies.

 

it even does not make the game more boring or anything like that. it's just you imagination or your lack of tactical gameplay.

 

well, you mentioned sedna quot combos. i did not encountered a host that denie such a combo. i just would lough of that. as if it would be a strong combo.. lol

 

it seems to me that all the people that do not want doubles are so clueless that they are afraid of the unknown.

Huhh? Where exactly am i arguing for that?
 

Will your opinon of how 'stupid' that rule is make people use it less? Especially considering your 'oh-so-convincing' arguments? 
Oh wait.. there are no real arguments apart from the usual 'im leet, you are noob, im right, you are wrong' kind of mantra you lot seem to be chanting endlessly.
 

You obviously have no clue about my gameplay so please do not pretend to know it. You will only embarass yourself in the process.

Huhh? I kindly point out the dumbness of the previously points I quoted from you.. maybe you take the hint.

[quote="ZehDon"]Why do you feel the need to call them 'scrubs'? I disagree with the intentional use of stacked Demigod abilties to alter the teams chances of winning. Why does this make me a 'scrub'? [/quote]

Because that is the derogatory term that hardcore and in your face type of gamers, the type of gamers who yearn for the ultimate and the extreme and who live their lives on the knife's edge of cool and whose e-penises are huge and always, always erect, use of the casual gamers. It comes from misunderstanding a pretty bad article by Sirlin.

e.g. here:

"You realize tho, that the simple fact that you need a very specific DG combination to even stand a chance beating those sednas predestines you to struggle throughout the game."
 
your whole argumentation is based on the (not only this one) "fact" that doubles force you to play other demigods that you do not seem to want.

and the above sentence isn't even true, at least not as much you said. some adaption is always needed - that's why it's called a strategy game.

if it where only a question of changing your build or items or citadelle upgraders during match ... well this you have to do anyway, no matter if doubles or not. adaption is always a key part!

 

so what's your point? wanna restrict any further? deny others everthing so that you can keep on your gameplay? it's a strategie game. adaption is a key part! this includes adaption to doubles. but as i said, if you do not wish to play against doubles, host it. your rules.

 

but don't start arguing. there is NO reason except your imagination for this! changing dgs, selecting a team is a strategic part of this game. that's why i find it stupid.

 

edit: what with a no swift anklet as favor rule? it destroys my gameplay as melee same argumentation as your no doubles rule!

 

edit: i bet you never played with/against doubles or tribles. this is all so redicules.