Raging Amish Raging Amish

Quirks, Irks, and Things that Bother Me TAKE FOUR

Quirks, Irks, and Things that Bother Me TAKE FOUR

First off, I know Deciever has a post with a list of fixes the community is voicing together to have fixed. I applaud his effort, but this post is more of a rant, a run down of just little things that as I've played, things that have annoyed or confused me.

TAKE FOUR

For a third round of redunancy: REPULSE

I still can not stress how much this needs to be addressed.

The Overseer

It needs a 360 degree firing arc like the repair bots on the hoshiko. Also, why is this thing tier 4? Advent get guardians at tier 3. TEC get hoshikos at tier 3. Vasari get their first support cruiser at tier 4. That aint fair. I have to spend the money on another lab AND extra money on the tech for a somewhat less effective version of the hoshiko? Bull.

Also, the tier 4 and 5 abilities on this ship are laughable. Unless that 50% extra jump time gives you enough time to take out a specific target (PJI or a lightly upgraded starbase), it's useless. So you can see them jumping in? OOOOOOO boy, that's exciting. Never mind the econ tree techs where I can see 1, 2 jumps, and then EVERYTHING at tier 8. The 2 jumps is probably a bit more accurate. It's a bit cheaper in total and in the end probalby a better overall option than the overseer if you wanna see what ur opponent's doing.

Strikecraft cost no $$$ to replace

This one irks me a lot. My opponent can jump in with 10 carriers, 30 squads of fighters, take out whatever he can of my lrf's/bombers/scouts/whatever, then jump out, and replenish his losses at NO COST. Meanwhile I must pay to replace the frigs I lost. Bull. Strikecraft shouldn't be ridiculously expensive. No, then they'd be useless, but right now, i don't like the system.

 

If I could have my way I'd:

1. I'd lower the health and shields of all lrfs as they stand by 10%. I've never understood why these units are so tough. From the description you see in game, these are supposed to be like archers. They do a lot of damage at a longer range, but are very weak and frail, so can easily be destroyed by something that gets up close. As it stands Illums on paper look as strong if not stronger than Enforcers, and LRMs + Assailants are fleets that are so tough that they can just make enemy siege frigates go *pop*.

Lrf's will still crush light frigs, but you'd actually be able to counter lrfs now. Maybe. I don't know if 10% would be enough, but considering I'm already suggesting to nerf the Illum, a 10% additional nerf is appropriate.

1a. If 1 does or doesn't happen, I'd lower the Illum health by 100 and the armor by one. Illums have the best health and shields of the lrfs. Shields yes. Health should be worst. Also, LRFs need a slight nerf in shields and assailants need a slight buff in shields for balance of the lrfs.

In order for shields from toughtest to worst it should be advent, vasari, tec.

In order for health from toughest to worst it should be tec, vasari, advent.

2. Because of the fix I propose in 1a, I'd probably have to nerf flak. Flak already can just barely beat lrfs. With that fix, Flak would now crush lrfs and fighters. To fix this, I'd lower the multiplier against light armor by either 25% or 50%. I'm leaning towards 25%. Flak wouldn't be as effective against bombers anymore, but then again, you're not supposed to use flak on bombers anyway. Still, perhaps the hit % could be upped on bombers. In theory, bombers move slower and wouldn't be as hard to hit (Battle of Midway and the torpedo bombers anyone?), so giving a 100% hit rate against bombers would help offset the damage reduction I'm proposing against bombers.

3. I'd upp the anti-heavy armor bonus that light frigs get by 25%.

4. Leave flak as is against fighters. Something needs to be able to crush fighters. This is the only thing that counters them. Fighters are made for free and at the cost of antimatter. Something has to be able to do it. Perhaps nerf flak slightly, but do it too hard and carrier spam will become popular again.

5. Up repulses cost for antimatter per second to 12-15 antimatter per second.

My main point is #1. I realize that to do that fix, this game would need a series of rebalances, but then again, the game isn't exactly balanced as is (as exemplified by the fact that no one uses light frigs). I've never understood why lrf's are so tough. When the devs saw the Illum was weak way back in 1.03 or 1.04, whatever it was, they didn't bring the other lrfs down to it. No. They brought the Illum up. Up so far it crushes just about anything. I'm going to be testing to see if that anything includes enforcers.

TAKE THREE

For a second round of redunancy: REPULSE

If there was a way to force the guardian to stay and not break the "channeling ability", it'd be fine. One use of repulse would take 210 antimatter. As is the unit can break the channel at any time and save 150 100 antimatter ish and 7-8 can fire indefinitely. So....

IT STILL NEEDS FIXING

The Random Map Generator use of "Random - any"

Go to the map creator. You'll notice that there is a planet type called "Random - any". I think this is overly used in the random map generator. This is where the complete randomness of the maps come from and is the source of my hatred for about 20% of the maps we play. Anything can end up here, and what you see is that by having too many randoms, people can get boned by the map and not have any planets or neutrals near them.

Clarification - Vasari Starbase

I want to revise my sentiment here. I think the construction rate of this should be the same as Advent and TEC starbases, and that in enemy grav wells it should get a -25% build rate penalty. Maybe 50%. What I'd really like is to have the armor taken away from it while being constructed. Why is a target that's under construction getting the full defensatory bonus it would get only if fully up and running?

 

TAKE TWO

For redunancy: REPULSE

Its still pisses me off.

The Vasari In General

Anyone else notice that with Vasari you're crossing your fingers for neutrals? This race is a gamble to pick in my mind, because how effective you are is pretty much linked to how many neutrals you find. Assailants are weak and only good at taking out capital ships. The enforcer is the worst HC. The Skirmisher does 10 dps, as much as a cobalt, but still takes up 2 extra ship slots. The Scout is the worst for combat purposes. You need the $$$ to offset this loss, and if there aren't neutrals, your job gets a lot tougher.

Add in the wrench of the starbase. This thing to me is a gigantic glorified frigate. The Vasari frigates aren't strong enough. The starbase is too strong and too easy to tech. You can't use Ogrovs against it as effectively cause they gotta move...stopping them from firing. Guess my biggest quarrel is how effective they are early game. The only thing that can have a prayer to fight off a starbase in the first 20 min is Advent bombers (because tier 2), or long range frigates. That's it. They are too tough and construct too quickly in enemy grav wells.

Quick construction in friendly grav wells? Absolutely. In enemy grav wells? Cut it to half the rate of the construction a TEC or Advent one. It's too powerful otherwise in early games.

One Phase Lane Homeworld Starts

This actually is very VERY disadvantageous and needs to be addressed in the random map generator. For lack of better words, getting boned by the map aint right. Getting a ton of magnetic clouds and neutrals instead of planets is one thing. Having fewer phase hurts in two ways. First, you lose tactical options. Instead of expanding in one of several directions, you can only expand in one way....which sucks. Second, your eco is hurt. Badly. Essentially you're eco takes a 10% hit because instead of having 90% and 80% allegiance planets, you get 80% and 70% allegiance planets because everything is now further from your homeworld.

Randomness of Neutrals

Two things with this. 1, I'm sick of maps that are completely loaded with neutrals. The only way you can hand the Vasari a game even more is to hand them a stuffed human (normal or with psionic ability) with an apple in its mouth. In the random map generator, I'd like it if fewer planets were completely random and could instead be set to be.....sound the trumpets....planets. Don't take away all the neutrals, but sometimes there are just simply too many.

2. There can be anywhere from 0-3 neutrals in a grav well. That's a bit lopsided don't you think? I realize most times maps randomize and actually stay pretty fair, but about 25% of the time it feels like my opponent has 3 grav wells with 3 neutrals per well, and meanwhile I've got three magnetic clouds all saying "Screw You Amish Guy".

No Allegiance on Neutrals

There is no allegiance on neutrals......yeah...that makes sense. Ok, maybe playing all fast in multiplayer screws with this perspective. It seems neutrals either are nonexistent or completely give the game to a player. I'd really like to see them reworked. You could lower their income or up their income but give them an allegiance factor. Either way, I know I don't like what the game has now. I've had a map with Vasari where I had 21 metal per second without taking  single lava planet or buildng a single refinery. It aint right. Just plain wrong.

Magnetic Clouds

Have you guys ever actually fought in a Magnetic Cloud? I know I haven't. Taking a fight here is an act of desperation rather than an act of tactics. I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to fight an Advent in a magnetic cloud. He just jumps out and waits for me elsewhere so he can use his abilities. As of the moment, Magnetic Clouds are nothing more than glorified space wasters that just add more time for your scouts to explore. You shouldn't be happy if you see these within the first 2 jumps of ur homeworld. It aint fun.

 2 mine Ices and Lavas

Ever had that night where you're playing sins and the map just doesn't wanna give you a break? Not only are you boned by the map, but you also get to expand to a lava that has.....TWO mines!

I like the randomness of mines on planets. I do. 2-3 on Terrans and Deserts makes sense. These planets offer more population, so the emphasis here isn't minerals. It's credit income. Especially with the extra logistic slots.

I don't get why Lavas and Ices can have from 2-4. It should be 3-4. The WHOLE POINT of an ice or lava is to get extra income of ONE type of mineral. I can not tell you the number of times games get more frustrating because I have 3 of these 2 mine suckers, and meanwhile my opponent has a lava and an ice with 4 mines a piece. It's like being a he man taking a pitchfork to the back of the head but the pitchfork doesn't do brain damage. You're just gonna keep going and try to muscle through it, but in the back of your head, something aint right.

Take One

The Uselessness of Light Frigates

I'm probably not giving anyone a revelation with this one, but thanks to long range frigates, light frigs can't get anywhere near support crusiers to do their job. Really, if you think about it, the only time it would ever make sense to make a large contingent of light frigs in your fleet is if your opponent spammed flak. Even then, the damage multiplier LF's get against heavy armor is only +50%, which just isn't enough for the meaty flak and all of it's health. I'd like the multiplier to be increased to something in the ballpark of 200% at least, maybe even higher. Seriously. Right now if you see someone making a ton of cobalts, you just laugh.

The way it should be is you see light frigs coming for your support cruisers and ur reaction is "Oh Crap, get them out of there"

The OP of Repulse

Not going into detail, as it's not news. I'd like light frig abilities to outrange repulse. That'd help....a little. You could fix repulse by either upping the delay between uses (to say....like 30 seconds to a minute), or by upping the antimatter costs. Personally, I'd like the latter so someone can't abuse it insanely, but either'd work.

The OP of Illums

Not going into detail either. It's not news.

  Hull Armor Shields Damage Ship Slots used
Kodiaks 6300 5 3600 108 60
Crusaders 4650 4 4950 114 60
Enforcers 5875 4 3500 100 60
Illum 6200 2 5500 166 60
Assailant 6000 2 3600 130 60
LRM 7000 1 4200 165 60

What I don't grasp here is why the Illum's health is so high. It should be TEC health = highests, Vasari Middle Man, Advent third. This is the theme of the races that sets them apart. For some reason though, the Illum's health is very very high. It should be around 5000 for 10 illums, or 500 health for each Illum. That might help some of the problems with Illums. The DPS is ok. It should be the highest for all the races considering it's Tier 3. It should not have 620 health and 2 armor. It should be lowered to 500 health and 1 armor. That'd help with balance.

Assailant Weakness

On a related subject, why is the assailant the worst for shields overall? Shouldn't that be TEC?

Starbase Spamming

This is a wierd wierd phenomenon I've seen. You typically see this on 5v5 maps where there are 3-5 allies bunched on one side of the map and the feeder has all the time in the world to get a monster eco going. This person, instead of getting a fleet, will put a starbase at EACH and EVERY system, including neutral sites, and support purely with econ and starbases at each planet. Oh, and they'll probably mix in the superweapons.

I figured out this is something that a large contingent of bombers can cure, but it's just wierd to see. You spend all your money on a "fleet" of stuff that either can't move (TEC/Advent), or is stuck in one system (Vasari). Ok, with the TEC, each starbase gets red button, so any one starbase can destroy a fleet, and Advent get meteor and Mass Disorient, so that's nasty too. For the record, I get why it's not a bad idea. You keep a high eco and your empire is well defended with strong buildings. I get it.

I just liked it better back in vanilla where my fleet could just keep rolling on through cause aint no one gonna stop me. Just nostalgia I guess.

The Enforcer/Skirmisher Nerf

Each of these ships gets reintegration. In exhange for this though, the devs nerfed the damage these do. JJ has already shown that the enforcer is the relatively weakest HC. I say the enforcer get's reintegration, so it makes the issue "fuzzy". What I don't get is why the skirmisher does 10 dps and the enforcer does 20. The enforcer should arguably be doing 24 dps, but I think I like the idea of 22 better.

The skirmisher takes up 7 ship slots and does 10 dps. The Cobalt takes up 5 and 10 dps. The disciple takes up 4 and does 8 dps. The pattern is 2 dps per ship slot. So why does the skirmisher only do 10 dps? I know it gets reintegration, so giving it 14 dps would be unfair, but jesus, a 30% nerf in damage to compensate for reintegration is excessive. I'd like to see it upped to 12 dps.

The Advent Culture Cannon

This superweapon is just overall odd. Vasari and TEC superweapons are direct and to the point. 2 Novalith shots take out 1 planet. The Kotsura cannon, although expensive, requires no pre-research to get and gets a discount with slave labor, and with 3-4 you can disamantle enemy fleets, plus, it opens up a phase lane for phase stabilizers. Sounds good to me.

The way I think it could work is if the culture would last a little longer. I think the right amount of time would be so that I could fire at the area, fire somewhere else, and then fire there again, and the culture from the first shot would still be there when the third shot got there. That'd help because then your opponents would ACTUALLY be forced to do something about the culture cannon. As of the moment, it's too easy to just get media hubs and spread a few more than you usually would around your empire to counter it.

Fighter Futility

Flak are very strong against them. So strong to the point that I'd say that this counter is just as strong as using lrf's against lf's. If light frigs could dismantle flak quickly, we might have a solution, but at the moment, it's reeeally hard to make an arguement for fighters when you're going to lose them so quickly to flak. Upping the antimatter regen rate of the carriers might help with this. (just a suggestion)

The Wave Tree

Why are these upgrades at tier 4,5, and 7? Why? They need to be waaaaay lower. Tier 2,4, and 5 respectively.

The Capital Colonizing Bonus for TEC and Vasari

The Vasari bonus seems a little iffy. 20% faster build for some time. 20? Just 20? Advent get 20% discount per level, and the vasari just quicker build times? This might help for rushing, but this needs to be a bit more drastic than that. I'd say go a minimum up to 50%. Up the build rate and how long it lasts with the up of colonize. At the moment, there's absolutely no incentive to bother with level 2 colonize until the egg reaches level 9.

The TEC bonus perplexes me even more. The bonus is 0,1,2 extractors built for free. So no bonus at level 1 for TEC? That seems a bit unfair. Shouldn't it be something like 1,2,3. What I'd like is for it to be 1, 2, 4.

Terran Upgrade is linked to Desert Upgrade for Advent

Tier 1, you must tech desert before you tech terran. Why? The Vasari are ALIENS and can up their terran pop % at level 1.

Culture Killing Rate

I think my beef here is that you up your own % by .10%/s, but only take down your enemy by .07%/s max. I'd like for the two values to be the same.

Quick Start in Online Matches

This might be nostalgia talking, but I don't like quick start. Like, at all. I know, quick start takes probably about 15-20 minutes out the game, but that's what made rushing so annoying now, and has brought Illums to the forefront of being OP.

What I miss is that you could build 3 scouts, have them explore, and you'd actually have about a 10 min warning of if your opponent is rushing. Now....you just know your opponent is gonna be rushing if he's at least slightly experienced. Takes the fun out of the game when you can't go out and get some planets before the big fight.

Just miss the olden days. That's all.

 

 

That's all I got for now.

 

 

 

71,849 views 167 replies
Reply #101 Top

i'm guessing you didn't have weapon upgrades on the orky....repair bays can only do 40/sec max so it should go down if slowly.

I did have a couple of weapon upgrades, but that isn't the point. Even without weapon upgrades an Orky should be able to destroy a metal extractor! They only cost 250 credits and a repair bay 400 credits and how much does an Orky cost without weapon upgrades? A whole lot more then both structures combined.

In the same game of MP I attacked his SB. I was winning. My Orky has 14000 health and his SB had 9000. Then he repaired his SB and it got back up to 15000 health before my Orky could even shoot it. Was this guy a hacker?

Ironically, Vasari being the weakest race by far has the easiest time to kill early game Orkys because of teh Egg's nanos, assailants which are good for focus firing and the skirantra whose repair cloud makes it slightly harder for the Orky to kill the enemy Vasari fleet

Overall, I agree with Deceiver. If the Orky gets put up a tier then it should be slightly cheaper to deploy.

Reply #102 Top

really reapair bays are not the orks enemy in sins. because you can fire at multiple targest the AM on the repair bays will run out very quickly then all you need to do is take out the SB. a real smart player will build lots of turrets around their SB making it impossible for the ork to destory without a supporting fleet. Advent and vasari turrets are the best at this.

I really dont find the vasari SB to be lakking or OP. usually if my opponent has his fleet at his HW he can destroy the SB i deploy, even early game. once it is up it is a beast and it should be. ive even had times where my opponents fleet was elsewhere but he still took out my SB with building ships while my SB is building.

the vasari SB is not OP and it does not need to get moved to teir 3.

when i play other races i have absolutely no problems taking down an orky unless my opponetn has a large fleet defending as well.

the vasari SB is also far weaker late game, both advent and TEC SBs have mass fleet killing abilities, vasari does not. While the Orky is good early game defenatly the strongest early game it has much less value late game because of its lack of a mass destruction abilty.

Reply #103 Top

really reapair bays are not the orks enemy in sins. because you can fire at multiple targest the AM on the repair bays will run out very quickly then all you need to do is take out the SB.

Thats why I think that this guy was a hacker. He repaired his SB too quickly for me to even damage it. Based on this experience I thought that the Orky was weak against structures. I was pretty pissed about this for a long time, but if no-one else is experiencing this then I guess its not an issue.

I was not saying that the Orky actually needs to go up a tier only that if it does then it would be only fair to reduce the deployment cost.

Reply #104 Top

the only thing i can think of is if he turned off autocast for repairs and microed his repair bays to repair his SB. then they woudlnt run out of AM

Reply #105 Top

I mentioned it in a number of places - Orkulus needs a boost to its anti structure damage. Period.

Everyone can bring more bombers, but should the Vasari be completely forbidden another approach? 
When someone is repairing faster than you can damage him, you will:

- bring more Ogrovs if you're TEC
- bring more starfish if you're Advent

However, you can't bring another Orky.

A fully offensively upgraded orkulus deals less anti-structure damage to a high-armor starbase than two ogrovs !

LOL!

Seriously, Orky HAS to be given increasing anti structure potential as it is upgraded, because now it cannot even lick a Hoshi-repairbay-argonev combination, or any combination of forces where there is heavy repairing going on. 

Every other race can just bring more guns, but Orkies can't breed.

Reply #106 Top

The Orky is incredibably tough though. I mean, it's an anti-structure building that's not going to go away. Plus, it can get the 250 health + 2 armor boost from overseers. If you've actually run into a non-vasari opponent with a heavily upgraded starbase, that means one of two things.

1. You were involved in an early 2 v 1 where you and an ally held a guy down to one planet and the other guy built the starbase to survive.

2. It's late game, and your opponent has a huge empire, as do you.

In case 1, bringing in your own orky is going to be devastating to him. Fully up the armor and the guns on the orky. Bring in some fighter/bomber support, and the Orky is deadly.

Not to mention, it gets frontal shield as a countermeasure when going up against other starbases.

In case 2, that's a bit tougher. Here I completely see your point. It sucks, because as Vasari you have to bring bombers, not another orky, as support. If your opponent is smart he'll have fighters, meaning you either need to bring your own fighters or flak to take down his fighters first before you bring out your bombers. Gets a little hairy here I'll admit.

 

Reply #107 Top

On the other hand, when you run into a star that has four (or more, in a team game) starbases in it, there's nothing quite so satisfying as building four Orkies and ripping up the stationary TEC and Advent starbases one by one.  Takes a while, but once the debris clears you control their star with an iron fist, and if that star is of critical tactical importance it can mean a won game. 

Reply #108 Top

why are people suggesting to reduce the cost of the orky?

every starbase costs exactly the same amount... 3000 credits, 450 metal, and 375 crystal. (if i did my math right)

now, for advent and tec, most of that cost is the cost of the heavy constructor...

the VAS, cause they use their colony frig (which is significantly cheaper than a heavy constructor) have a higher deploy cost to compensate.

We also are probebly forgetting that losing a colony frig is much less of a loss than a heavy constructor... less fleet supply, and less of your resources are hogged up in a useless state while the constructor is in transit.

 

Reply #109 Top

i know pb i like the vasari SB as is it does not need to be changed.

it takes rediculously long to build so unless you have overseers it will die in the construction process.

Reply #110 Top

I like the starbase. I just don't like that it's such a good option so early. Maybe it is balanced. This is a point where I think I'm probably a bit biased.

Reply #111 Top

i think you are amish you cant take out a building SB with scouts. ;P

Reply #112 Top

I have seen 150 scouts take down a building and then finished sb losing only 3 scouts in the process(neither my scouts or my SB).  It was a sad sight to see.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #113 Top

but if you have built 150 scouts you just spent 30,000 creds so it should be able to take out a building SB.

playing as advent i have had someone build a SB in my grav well, when he started i had 4 illums 2 disciples and a progen. he also had 10+ assilents. with only 2 factories i was able to kill the SB and his fleet. when his SB built it only had 1k hp left and i didnt lose a single illum from the SB.

The vasari SB is far from OP, it may be very strong early game but late game the Vasari SB sucks. both other SBs have mass fleet killing abilites vasari doesnt.

really SB rushing is as viable a strat as rushing scouts. the only disadvantage with SB rushing is that it is stuck in the grav well.

Reply #114 Top

Quoting Raging, reply 6

In case 2, that's a bit tougher. Here I completely see your point. It sucks, because as Vasari you have to bring bombers, not another orky, as support. If your opponent is smart he'll have fighters, meaning you either need to bring your own fighters or flak to take down his fighters first before you bring out your bombers. Gets a little hairy here I'll admit.
Gets hairy for yet another reason - TIME.

Ok you decide you want to assault that starbase with its fighters and flaks and hell knows what else repair bay support. So you build your own,
upgrade it,
upgrade it,
upgrade it,
huzzah! You have a 3-def, 3-assault starbase with deflectors or whatever, ready to bang his ass off.

What you didn't note is that it all lasted 20 minutes and now the guy has 40 additional carriers filled with bombers, waiting to jump in and f*** that Orkulus out of orbit as soon as it gets near his SB.
Remember that all that building and upgrading was going on in HIS gravwell, meaning that he needed no more than one grey cell to be perfectly aware of your progress.

Building and upgrading that orky takes SUCH AN UNGODLY AMOUNT OF TIME that the opponent has almost a half of eternity to prepare to fend that orky off. He has all the time he needs and a little extra to build up a counter and bring reinforcements.
Worst of all, he has all the time he needs to upgrade his own starbase, because he's "at home" and will upgrade faster than your orky with assault deployment! So as long as the enemy has similiar budget to yours, he can turn any Orkulus invasion into a 40 minute firefight between two 20.000 hit point starbases, one draining AM from repair bays and hoshikos, second from overseers and his own deflectors.
Bleh.

 When you're TEC or Advent, you can at least build your starfish in the safety and secrecy of your own system, then brutally jump a massive force into the enemy gravwell and overpower his starbase in seconds, before he can react.
If Vasari are all about fast and furious, then their way of assaulting fortified systems is a complete negation of that rule.

Reply #115 Top

N3rull the assumption that both persons have equal amounts of income means they both have equal amounts of ship slots researched and if he brings 40 carriers then you have 39+a sb for offense.If it takes that many to kill a sb then you have that many fighters to defend it.

Reply #116 Top

Quoting MindsEye, reply 15
N3rull the assumption that both persons have equal amounts of income means they both have equal amounts of ship slots researched and if he brings 40 carriers then you have 39+a sb for offense.If it takes that many to kill a sb then you have that many fighters to defend it.
You forgot that this orkulus he is building ain't exactly free of charge.

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Reply #117 Top

I know this isn't the answer, but thanks to Vasari Phase Missiles, Vasari Bombers are the best at taking out starbases. Phase missiles excel at taking out 1 target i.e. caps & starbases. If you can somehow limit your enemy to having only his starbase you might be made in the sun. If it's late game and he has a ridiculous eco, he probably hasn't been paying too much attention to defenses, but rather his own ships and his econ. This in general means the only thing you'll run into is his starbase and his fleet.

Don't fight near the starbase. Keep your fleet alive. Take out any support structures of his and maybe, it's not so bad.

Who am I kiddin? Mobile starbase isn't enough. Give the vasari starbase a better anti-structure attack (an ability better than frontal shield) or give them an assault cruiser.

Reply #118 Top

Neither was the one the defending player built with all its structures and whatnot.

Reply #119 Top

Phase missiles excel at taking out 1 target i.e. caps & starbases

You are bringing up the subject of "Vasari bombers are teh best at killing SBs cause of Phase Missiles".
First, I think it is not true (very high armor greatly reduces the advantage of bypassing shield mitigation, Vasari bombers are few, rebuild slowly, thus are less suited for prolonged attack and so on) but that's another thread.

Second, as you said yourself, the Orky just doesn't do its job well enuf. Needs buff against structures.

Neither was the one the defending player built with all its structures and whatnot.

He already has it built and still has cash flowing in as you are beginning to build your own starbase.
It can have trade facilities and may have already paid back for itself a long time ago.
For the money he spent on that starbase you may have built a fleet that is not suited to attacking it (for instance, an LRM fleet won't help if the starbase is minimally supported).

Situation is: he has the starbase and you have to make a counter.
TEC and Advent can build a counter and then surprise attack the starbase. Vasari cannot, cause building their own SB takes years, it upgrades slower than the one already present and it is all done in plain sight of the enemy defender.

Reply #120 Top

For the money he spent on that starbase you may have built a fleet that is not suited to attacking it

Well scouting can fix that.

It can have trade facilities and may have already paid back for itself a long time ago.

It means its easier for you to kill.

Situation is: he has the starbase and you have to make a counter.
TEC and Advent can build a counter and then surprise attack the starbase. Vasari cannot, cause building their own SB takes years, it upgrades slower than the one already present and it is all done in plain sight of the enemy defender.

This may be but you have a slower suprise attack but a much much more difficult one to defend against then say 5-10 orgovs because you only need a few fighters for your sb to survive.You need many many bombers to kill a sb quickly that has 1 hull up.If you have both levels of construction speed ups for your sb I highly doubt that your oponent can build that many carriers in time,get them to the well and have the bombers built in time before you get your 2nd or 3rd up going.Not to mention he will have to deal with your fighters and overseers defending it.

I was always against only 1 race haveing a moving sb and this is one of the probs with it.Its such a huge offensive advantage vas really cant be having great sb killing ships like the others.Its hard to use this to kill an entrenched player but its hard for the other races too.It takes longer for the vas sb to kill the other sb and structures but if you get it up and running its a much more solid approach and much more difficult to counter with a fleet behind it.

Reply #121 Top

Well scouting can fix that.

Not quite. Before you change the kind of army you're building, you have to make appropriate research. If you're in a tight fight with 20 LRMS in your fleet and another bunch pumping out, you won't just stop reinforcing your fleet and build two more military labs and research carriers and start building carriers just because you noticed the other guy build a starbase some 5 phase jumps away. Right now he's screwing you with something and you have to counter that something.

It means its easier for you to kill.

Not quite again. A argonev with one level of trade facilities still has 7 slots that could be filled with anything else to ruin your day.

This may be but you have a slower suprise attack but a much much more difficult one to defend against then say 5-10 orgovs because you only need a few fighters for your sb to survive
You have NO surprise attack, that's one. Second, any SB can screw an Orky pretty well, and when it is supported by repair bays and hoshikos (which can be continuously pumped out of nearby factories) then a 4-def 3-att orky will die before the other has lost a third of its life.
Third, 10 ogrovs are worth an orkulus with 2 defense upgrades. Will an orky with 2 def upgrades kill anything? No, it will just float there. Definately won't scratch any starbase.
To attack a developed starbase you need 15k worth of upgrades on that orky. Count how many ogrovs you can make for 15k creds and check how long a starbase can survive against such an onslaught.
Fourth point - along with third - even if you have built that fully beefed up starbase over the past 20 minutes to wipe the defending one, that fight will still last another 20 minutes, cause the orky just doesn't do much damage at all. During that fight the defender has additional time to prepare defenses or call his allies or bring his fleets from elsewhere.

Reply #122 Top

Another very powerful tool vas have is the kostura cannon.Perfect compliment to seiging.Makes repair useless.

Fourth point - along with third - even if you have built that fully beefed up starbase over the past 20 minutes to wipe the defending one, that fight will still last another 20 minutes, cause the orky just doesn't do much damage at all. During that fight the defender has additional time to prepare defenses or call his allies or bring his fleets from elsewhere.

Not if you started attacking with bombers.You have the same opportunities with your own factories and allies.

Third, 10 ogrovs are worth an orkulus with 2 defense upgrades. Will an orky with 2 def upgrades kill anything? No, it will just float there. Definately won't scratch any starbase.

Ogrovs will do more damage to structures yes but they die 10x faster and as you kill them their total dps goes down and so does their killing power an orky does not.Also as well as they kill structures an orky kills fleet AND deals damage to structures.Many at one time.Ogrovs do damage to one structure at a time.This is where the big diff comes in.Ogrovs do damage only to structures so you have a huge chunk of fleet into one damage type while an orky takes 0 ship slots.Means you can creat a much larger damage dealing fleet.Fleets do good damage to structures.I agree they suck against a sb.

Second, any SB can screw an Orky pretty well, and when it is supported by repair bays and hoshikos (which can be continuously pumped out of nearby factories) then a 4-def 3-att orky will die before the other has lost a third of its life.

Not really.You have the moving sb so you are deciding when to engage with ur sb.If you engage a sb before its ready then its ur own fault.You also sound like you want an orky to kill a heavily uped sb with defense structures built around it and a supporting fleet all byitself.THAT IS NOT BALANCED.Bring your fleet to support and defend ur orky.Enough overseers+carrier cap can keep one alive fairly well.Yes its hard but its hard for any race to seige a well like this.Its not suppose to be easy.You can have 2 or 3 frig facs a jump or 2 away just like him pumping ships to the battle.

 

You have NO surprise attack, that's one.

Yes you do.You can still jump in with 40+ bomber squads and start aussalting immediatly before the other player can respond.This is the ONLY seige weapon for advent so your already on par with them.Dont tell me about how much vas bombers suck either they are just as good if not better.Can be healed have 5x more armor then advent and squads have similar rebuild and hp values just diff number of bomber per squad.They are easier to up then advents too.Carriers cost exactly the same slots and resources.Some very experienced players have stated vas bombers do more damage(phase missiles) against single targets.

 

Not quite again. A argonev with one level of trade facilities still has 7 slots that could be filled with anything else to ruin your day.

Exactly but 7 mil slots is easier to kill then one with 8 mil slots.You can construct a vas sb with 8 mil slots.1 slot makes a big diff on a sb.

 

Not quite. Before you change the kind of army you're building, you have to make appropriate research. If you're in a tight fight with 20 LRMS in your fleet and another bunch pumping out, you won't just stop reinforcing your fleet and build two more military labs and research carriers and start building carriers just because you noticed the other guy build a starbase some 5 phase jumps away. Right now he's screwing you with something and you have to counter that something.

Your not really refering to a suprise attack on a well defended planet then are you;P .This is entirely a diff scenerio then we were discussing.

Reply #123 Top

Count how many ogrovs you can make for 15k creds and check how long a starbase can survive against such an onslaught.

Ya and after he killed the sb you roll in with your fleet and kill all ogrovs because they are worthless and is why you will not see this many ogrovs with anyone with half a brain.If it does happen its an even trade.He cant kill anything but you sb period.

Reply #124 Top

Second, any SB can screw an Orky pretty well, and when it is supported by repair bays and hoshikos (which can be continuously pumped out of nearby factories) then a 4-def 3-att orky will die before the other has lost a third of its life.

if they are pumping out ships but an orky will take down a fully upgraded SB even if it has repairs just because hte repairs run out of AM quickly. the only way a normal SB will take down an orky is if it has alot of turrets around it 20+ turrets will add so much firepower the ork wont take it down. but if they are pumping out ships to defend against the SB then as mind said you need to build ships too.

Reply #125 Top

if they are pumping out ships but an orky will take down a fully upgraded SB even if it has repairs just because hte repairs run out of AM quickly. the only way a normal SB will take down an orky is if it has alot of turrets around it 20+ turrets will add so much firepower the ork wont take it down. but if they are pumping out ships to defend against the SB then as mind said you need to build ships too.
You clearly have never sent an orky against another starbase. It is not a floating Chuck Norris and it does get its ass handed to itself.

Another very powerful tool vas have is the kostura cannon.Perfect compliment to seiging.Makes repair useless.
Will you cut that kostura bs out? It's tech level 8 in military tree and fvcktardedly expensive.
It's like bringing an argument that Vasari can have their max supply cap increased by a tier 6(?) research so they can bring more ships to battle than anyone else! Who can fight that? It's a flawed argument, cause nobody in a normal game has the time , the money and the lack of other threats to actually get anywhere near max fleet supply cap.
Just as nobody brings tech-8 Kosturas that cost 8000credits apiece anywhere about the time their enemies have their starbases set up.

Not if you started attacking with bombers.You have the same opportunities with your own factories and allies.
Wrong. He's at home, in his territory, in his culture, in his gravwell with his factories RIGHT HERE. You are not.
And.. bombers? So we're back to bomber spamming? Great anti structure tactic it is, bringing an orky, when you have to start off with bombers anyway.

Ogrovs will do more damage to structures yes but they die 10x faster and as you kill them their total dps goes down and so does their killing power an orky does not.Also as well as they kill structures an orky kills fleet AND deals damage to structures.Many at one time.Ogrovs do damage to one structure at a time.This is where the big diff comes in.Ogrovs do damage only to structures so you have a huge chunk of fleet into one damage type while an orky takes 0 ship slots.Means you can creat a much larger damage dealing fleet.
It all costs MONEY. You CAN have a bigger fleet and stuff, but you still need that much more CA$H to fill that supply.
And they don't die nearly as fast as they could, not when they're in their own gravwell supported by their own SB, repair bays and hohos and whatever. Thy don't die too fast when they're supported in any way. Alone, they will die. Give them hohos, a Kol, flaks and fighters' support and they won't die. Not before they left their target in the red.

Not really.You have the moving sb so you are deciding when to engage with ur sb.If you engage a sb before its ready then its ur own fault.
He's not gonna wait and do nothing before you have dumped that 30 k credits into that orky. He is at home, he can see you clearly and he will prepare. Your starbase will never be more ready than his, because the defender's SB upgrades faster. This means the orky is never ready. It can only be upgraded to the maximum, but the enemy is still going to have some other trick ready for you, all because you're giving him enough time.
In every game and every war, all assaults depended on some kind of surprise. Whether it was a maneuver unexpected by the enemy, or the army the attackers brought, or the sheer speed that denied the defender the time to prepare, every attack needed an advantage.
When you're foresaking all your advantages, this is no longer an assault. Orkulus is not an assault weapon. Needs rework to be so.

Yes you do.You can still jump in with 40+ bomber squads and start aussalting immediatly before the other player can respond.This is the ONLY seige weapon for advent so your already on par with them.Dont tell me about how much vas bombers suck either they are just as good if not better.Can be healed have 5x more armor then advent and squads have similar rebuild and hp values just diff number of bomber per squad.They are easier to up then advents too.Carriers cost exactly the same slots and resources.Some very experienced players have stated vas bombers do more damage(phase missiles) against single targets.
Yeah and I heard experienced players saying Vulkoras is awesome and they mentioned assault specialization increases its anti-planet dps by helluva lot, when it turned out it in fact nerfs its damage output due to a bug.
People see big numbers and think they will win the day, when in fact it's just their imagination.
Sure, when you bring 40 carriers with you, you win. Unless the defender's scouting fixed it and he prepared defences - fighters, flaks and hangar upgrades. Thn you're cooked.
Anyway, is THIS what the game is about then? Spamming bombers? Why is that stupid Orky flying at all?
And you're lying about advent having only bombers. When a starbase is supported by repair bays and other stuff, Starfish may not down the starbase fast enough but they can do insane massacre by wiping out the other structures and leaving the defender's SB lonely and unsupported. Starfish really do a lot of damage. Then, illums + progen + guardians are enough to down a fully developed starbase without losses. Unless it's Transcencia, then it takes some micro.

Exactly but 7 mil slots is easier to kill then one with 8 mil slots.You can construct a vas sb with 8 mil slots.1 slot makes a big diff on a sb.
Orly? Aux gov + trade + full defense + full attack. No problem.
Besides, if you make a Vas SB with 8 mil slots, you have wasted 30k credits. Without Enforced Loyalty, Trade or even colony pods, that floating octopus is absolutely useless and doesn't present any value at all beyond its weapons range. Unless it is defending your homeworld, your enemy might as well skip it altogether and let float there, looking for targets that don't give a shit about it. And if that thing is defending your homeworld, the enemy might just as well bomb that homeworld from the other side and take it over before that octopus circles the planet.
A full-military starbase with no other upgrade is pointless to make. That's another thing that pisses me off. Yeah, an 8mil Orkulus will kill any other starbase eventually. But it is totally useless thereafter.
It's either spend 30k credits on something that won't help you much but will have a little sense later on, or spend 30k credits on something that will help you now and that won't have any use later.

and after he killed the sb you roll in with your fleet and kill all ogrovs because they are worthless and is why you will not see this many ogrovs with anyone with half a brain.If it does happen its an even trade.He cant kill anything but you sb period.
You built a starbase for 30k credits. He amassed ogrovs for that amount. He wiped that starbase. Now he can retreat them, or move along to another starbase of yours, or wipe other structures, or.... just use them ELSEWHERE.
Orky can't go anywhere.
The defender brings his fleet? Well, then you should have one too. He paid for SB, you countered with Ogrovs. He has a fleet, you should have your own. One counters the other and is worth as much as the other.
Orkulus costs as much as that defending starbase, doesn't do its job well anough at all, takes helluva time to deploy and is just wasted money thereafter.