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Scouts & Scout Rushing: The Explanation (Developer Input would be appreciated)

Scouts & Scout Rushing: The Explanation (Developer Input would be appreciated)

For what it's worth, I'm going to throw in my input. I've scout rushed more than anyone, and I can tell you, this strategy isn't designed to be the superior late game fleet. Massed scouts in late game are overall weak, and I do not think this is the fleet you want if you're going to be going on the offensive.

Scout rushes should only be used on a map, such as single system 5v5's and 4v4's, where youre homeworlds are 5 jumps or less apart. Scout rushes in my book are making a ton of scouts when you see someone going straight to LRMS, Assailants, or Illums.

The point of doing scouts to fight LRF's  is this. You get to buy a cheap fleet that allows you to invest in your economy so you can not only have a sufficient fleet to knock him back, you also have a better economy that will allow you to overwhelm your opponent with your next wave of ships.

To be clear, I hate LRF fights because I HATE FIGHTING ROCK WITH ROCK. That's what LRF battles are. It's a mindless battle of who can make more, instead of who can make the better fleet. As many of us have noticed, Fighters no longer do the job. I'm sorry devs, but I just don't follow your logic when you made carriers SLOWER than long range frigates. I was ok with the fact that HC's were faster than carriers. They're good against anything. Now, all someone has to do is make some flak (not alot), and they can crush the fighters, and all that person is left with is carriers gobbling up ship slots that can be chased down by the very unit they were designed to counter. 

So, fighters don't do the job. Flak are too strong against them. I wanted a counter. I don't want to outproduce someone, I want to out wit them, hence why I'm playing a STRATEGY game.

I figured this strategy out when I noticed the anti-light bonus that scouts get. This bonus is ridiculous. You need to match production in ship slots (three tec scouts per 1 Illum, or 4 vasari scouts per 3 lrms, etc). There's a BIG drawback though. Scouts are good against ONLY long range frigates. If you're still making Long Range Frigates and/or your own scouts to fight against other scouts AND you're losing, that's your own stupid fault.

I designed this because it's the only counter I've seen that sufficiently pushes back the annoying LRF rusher. You know what I mean. The person who gets X number labs needed for LRF's, techs them, and sends as many as possible your way.

Scouts aren't for assaulting. They do 50% of their damage to anything not with light armor, and their dps is pathetic to begin with. The only reason they're any good against LRF's is the 200% damage multiplier they against light armor. That's +100%. Lethal.

If there is a developer reading this, DON'T you dare nerf these scouts. If anything, the Vasari scout needs a light buff in damage (up to 4 to 4.5 dps per ship instead of 3.5) and a slight buff in shields. Advent scouts are incredibably tough. TEC scouts are incredibly strong (Best Scouts for countering LRF rush). Vasari scouts get neutrals, but hold the worst combat value. They can do the job, but overall are just a tad weaker than Seekers and TEC Scouts.

Oh, for the record, to whoever is pissed that somoene is building scouts instead of frigates, guess what? They're frigates too.

As I see it, this game rewards the person who has the better understanding of how to play. The counters are as follows as the game stands.

Light Frigates --> Flak --> Fighters --> Scouts --> Long Range Frigates --> Light Frigates

In this loop, I remove scouts from it once you have the econ to support massed long range frigates with carrier support. Carriers work as support, but not as a stand-alone fleet.

There's also this chain.

Fighters --> Bombers -- > HC's --> Anything besides strikecraft (Including HC's oddly)

I've also left out

Light Frigates --> Support Cruisers.

Devs, the biggest problems in this game are the good damage mulitpliers the LRF gets (It's lowest  one is 75% agaisnt anything, including caps, only frigate besides HC to get that). That's why everyone spams them. This is also why most people mix in flak with them. Flak stop fighters hard and let that person keep their long range frigates that are free to terrorize.

That's why I looked so desperately for this counter. It's the best answer I've seen to knock back the "unbeatable" long range frigate spam. It's the only one that works.

So some of you say it's too hard to beat late game? Are you kidding me? Make anything that doesn't have light armor and you'll beat them. ANYTHING. If you're cap died to scouts that's cause you kept making targets with light armor. Scouts are pathetically weak against caps. To get through a cap's armor, high mitigation, and high health and shields, that means you made a fleet of lrf's that the scouts just mauled through.

My parting words? Learn the counters, and nothing in this game will phase you.

Changes I'd like to see in the game:

1) Vasari Scouts get 30% more shields, 10% more health, do 4-4.5 dps. Need the buff to compare to TEC and Advent

2) Illuminator Needs to be nerfed slightly. I think the way to do this is to either adjust the stats on the Illum, OR make them more expensive. I think the Illum SHOULD be the strongest and toughest LRF, but right now, their cost is very very comparable to Assailants and LRMS. Illums should be 10%-25% more expensive than assailants and lrms. They're strong and cheap. It shouldn't be that way.

3) Repulse is completely broken. It affects all ships, including caps. It uses almost no antimatter (6 per second). It's to easy to fire it, move, and then fire it again. The simplest fix to this is to just up the antimatter cost. I don't mind that repulse makes ships that it effects stop firing. I don't mind that Repulse has a range bigger than light frigate countering abilities. I don't mind that LRF's get a 75% multiplier against Guardian heavy armor. I don't mind that Fighters/bombers, which are "immune" to repulse, only get 50% multipliers against them. I mind that the ability costs so little and allows people to completely ABUSE the ability. They just don't stop. I'm ok if they use it strategically, but I hate it when they lean on it to stall because I'm  crushing them and they need a broken ability to make a stand.

50,938 views 81 replies
Reply #76 Top

idk what you are talking about amish but the vasari have the BEST HC in the game. their reintegration gives them another life. our weaponry is very powerful and not to mention 10 enforcers in forcefire will take out a kodiak (both unupg) in 2 salvos. not to mention it utterly MOLESTS SBS and CAPs. if anything the vas HC IS the counter to ilum spam. prob is no one knows how to eco it right so that they can GET HC.

Reply #77 Top

I'll make my arguement again, but this time I'll explain. Yes, the enforcer is a beastly ship, yes, 1 v 1 enforcer beats anything, but it takes up 12 ship slots.

Here's what I see in the stat comparison of 6 kodies vs. 5 enforcers ( 60 ship slots for each side ). Both are unupgraded

Hull: Kodies 6300 vs. Enforcers 5875

Victor Kodies

Armor: Kodies 5 vs. Enforcers 4

Victor: Kodies

Shields: Kodies 3600 vs. Enforcers 3500

Victor: Kodies

Damage: Kodies 108 vs. Enforcers 100

Victor: Kodies

Upgrades for Health: Both TEC and Vasari get at Tier 1,2, and 4 respectively for a net of +30% hull on each side

Victor: Tie

Upgrades for Shields: Both TEC and Vasari get at Tier 3 and 5 for a net of +20% shields

Victor: Tie

Upgrades for Armor: TEC get upgrades at tier 1, 3, 5, and 7 for a net of +6. Vasari get upgrades at tier 3, 4, and 6 for a net of +5 and 8% mass reduction.

Victor: I want to give a slight edge to TEC, but I'd understand an arguement for tie

Abilities: Kodies get the quick acceleration (Tier 6, rarely see it used), Enforcers get reintegration at tier 2 and the ability that slows down other ships (Tier 6, rarely see it used).

This depends on the scale of the battle. In smaller raids or early game, yeah, I'll bet this gives the edge to Vasari. The 5 enforcers vs. 6 Kodies is a good example. I'll bet in that small a battle reintegration helps out enough that the enforcers win that one. In a larger battle of 20 enforcers vs. 24 kodies though? Forget it. Once the DPS rate in huge fleets exceeds the reintegration rate by 2X, (720 health over 40 secs, correct me if I'm wrong, a rate of 18 hps), the ability loses its value.

Upgrades for Damage: Kodies get upped at Tier 2, 4, and 5. Enforcers get upped at 4, 6, and 7, yeesh.

Victor: Kodies easily

Cost: Creds Kodies 3000 vs. Enforcer 3100

Victor: Kodies slightly

Cost: Metal 600 Kodies vs. 750 Enforcer

Victor: Kodies

Cost: Crystal 420 Kodies vs. 550 Enforcer

Victor: Kodies

It's also worth nothing that Crusaders, although rarely used thanks to the Illum, are slightly better than enforcers. They have total HP/Shields combined than Enforcers (Less HP though, WAY more shields). They don't armor upgrades until very late game, but they get massive shield upgrades AND mitigation upgrades. Not to mention their weapon damage upgrade tree is cheaper.

Take a look. I computed it all. This is also a chart I used to determine if HC's really do beat LRF's. They do. Slightly.

The difference between the second portion and the third portion is I applied damage multipliers in the third one.

 

  Hull Armor Shields Damage Ship Slots used
Kodiaks 1050 5 600 18 10
Crusaders 775 4 825 19 10
Enforcers 1175 4 700 20 12
Illum 620 2 550 16.6 6
Assailant 600 2 360 13 6
LRM 500 1 280 11 4
  Hull Armor Shields Damage Ship Slots used
Kodiaks 6300 5 3600 108 60
Crusaders 4650 4 4950 114 60
Enforcers 5875 4 3500 100 60
Illum 6200 2 5500 166 60
Assailant 6000 2 3600 130 60
LRM 7000 1 4200 165 60
  Hull Armor Shields Damage Ship Slots used
Kodiaks 6300 5 3600 162 60
Crusaders 4650 4 4950 171 60
Enforcers 5875 4 3500 150 60
Illum 6200 2 5500 124.5 60
Assailant 6000 2 3600 97.5 60
LRM 7000 1 4200 123.75 60

Enforcers are expensive, and the money the TEC player isn't spending on Kodies, he's spending on upgrading his fleet, tilting the battle even MORE In the favor of Kodiaks.

My parting point:

The enforcer's effectiveness relies soley on how valuable reintegration is to the battle. If 720 health is laughable to a sizable fleet, then this ability loses its effectiveness. Still helps sure, but not as much. In a massive battle where there are +100 ships, that ability doesn't mean jack because of focus firing. In smaller battles, however, I would see how it would balance them out.

Take what you will. There's my arguement.

 

Reply #78 Top

fair enough. but really. when is it ever gonna come down to numbers such as 5v6? in real battles not only will HCs not even differ from a ratio but everyone knows VAS are KNOWN for fleet upgs. now i see your point in this. overall tho. just straight up flat out HC v HC i believe the enforcer is better. down to it you pay for what you get is my belief. your stats dont lie. i agree with your view. i still like my enforcers.

Reply #79 Top

Quoting Swordsalmon, reply 25
Why not give Vasari scouts Phase Missiles instead of their dual lasers? At least they would be able to increase their damage output against Illuminators with a phase upgrade, and make the costs actually worth it.

Not a bad Idea..the Upgrade tree those scouts follow is worthless....even Vasari SC use phase missles.

Btw, thinking of gettign demigod....looks like it involes as little strategy as this does though.

Reply #80 Top

The enforcer's effectiveness relies soley on how valuable reintegration is to the battle. If 720 health is laughable to a sizable fleet, then this ability loses its effectiveness. Still helps sure, but not as much. In a massive battle where there are +100 ships, that ability doesn't mean jack because of focus firing.

This is true, however, I don't often see a fleet of 100 focus firing on each individual enforcer ain a similarly sized fleet. Most will just set and forget, at which point reintegration is an incerdibly useful ability. It's a good idea ot get his ability no matter how many ships are involved with the fleets.

Reply #81 Top

Btw, thinking of gettign demigod....looks like it involes as little strategy as this does though.

Wrong and wrong - this game DOES need startegy, and so does Demigod. One is more startegic and one is more tactical though due the the scales involved...