what i do is use early game defence fleets that are tiny for defending aganst the early game pirates that have tiny fleets (i think i saw like 100 ships pirate fleets 6 hours into one of my games AND NO I DIDNT PLAY 6 HOURS STRAGHT i split into 2 hour things) or defending aganst early enemy expiditionary fleets that think they can swipe my worlds aside like dirt but my late game fleets might consist of this for the TEC 10 scout ships,10 colbalt light frigs 5 of the 3ed kind of ship 5 of the 4th kind and 5 of the 5th kind and 5 kodak crusers 5 or 10 cairers 5 celos and 1 to 4 caps. and i might have like 4 or 5 of those fleets with a fully upgraded fleet log tech tree and a fully upgraded cap tech tree so i use most ships exept non-combat ones i just put that cap ship that has the abilty to colonize in my fleet so ill sweep aside anything in a system and take it

Fair enough. I'm going by your memory, not mine, so here goes.

Any time I see an Advent with three Military Labs, I strike earlier rather than later. Not two. Not five. Three. Three military labs with Advent and a few Illums already out meant you were going Illums. You could have gone carriers, but because I was watching your homeworld and saw you starting to make Illums, I hit quickly. The fact is I didn't want you to get Illums in decent numbers. It's a bitch to counter Illums.

 An Illuminatorless or Illuminator deprived Advent player is a VERY VERY weakened Advent player. I was buying time.

Again, I don't remember this game, but I use the strategy all the time. This must've been a while ago, cause I seriously don't remember this game. I haven't played as TEC in ages. Been Vasari and Advent for the longest time now. Actually, I lied, I was TEC for the first time in a while today, and yup, used the aforementioned strat.

The strat I'm refering to is getting the constructors in the homewrold's grav well and then running around. With TEC the bomb ability is just a nice perk.

I'm not gonna defend everything I do. It sounds like I jumped the gun there. I've done that a few times. I saw someone getting lrf's so I make a ton of scouts cause they take time to make, so I start the second I see you making lrf's. Sounds like I went overkill and made too many. My bad. I took the gamble you'd keep making Illums and you didn't. I know I'm far from perfect, but I never spam. A spammer doesn't pay attention to his eco. I do. Though I do enjoy the fact that the only answer I've recieved so far from people who don't like scouts is that (and I'm paraphrasing) "I hate that there's a counter that works against my Illums. It shouldn't be scouts. Scouts are scouts, not fighters." Look at medieval times. Even then the scout on a light horse had a sword and light shield.

Though I will say after today I'm liking how TEC scouts spank Illums. I crunched the numbers. They actually do more damage to Illums than Illums do to them. Very intruiging.

Oh, and in a moment of humility. I have tried going on the offensive with scouts. They worked on newbs. Not on vets. Vets eventually figured out to switch to something besides scouts. Trust me, I've learned the hard way what WILL and will NOT work with scouts.

a point on the Vasari scouts:

1)they do less dps than their counterparts

2)they are weaker both in hull and shield

3)They may be able to take neutral mines, but they are more expensive than the other scouts, at least supply wise, which is what counts.  they might even be more expensive resources-wise, but I'd have to look at them again

this makes them a weak, expensive unit that, while able to take a neutral mine, cannot hold it and are quickly destroyed.  in all, they can be destroyed by a single, cheaper, stronger unit.

TEC scouts have Timed Explosives.  yet no one wants them more expensive.  Advent scouts are wicked strong and can martyr themselves, and are cheaper than Vasari scouts.  each race's scout has its own decent ability, and TEC and Advent scouts are semi-strong (comparatively), and cost less than the weaker Vasari scouts.  the capture extractor ability at least doesn't directly harm the other players, while the other two scouts' abilities do.

yeah, cause capping neutrals is worthless...

If I were building the super race by choosing a unit from each type from each faction, I would pick the vasari scout hands down. Capturing neutrls is by far the best scout ability, and who cares if they are a bit weaker? The ability is more than worth it. Vas scouts do not need a buff.

They (vas scouts) OBVIOUSLY need a buff if this is to be effective. just yesterday playing howler i had a mix of scouts and lrms. and while the scouts werent in greater number the overall fleet was which means i should still tear through lums. it didnt. the scouts always fell first. i see how the seekers lasers fire like ilm beams in a 3 directional pattern. if that were added onto the vas scout that would be all they need..maybe a little hp or shield boost. as it stands now. in a 3 to 1 ratio vas scouts LOSE always.

Agreed that they need a buff IF you want this to be a vasari strategy. However, I don't agree with your condition. Scouts are NOT the vasari answer to illums.

really? then what are? we all know the advent spam flak so strike craft are out. enforcers will be repulsed subs cant get in there during repulse... what else? have you in mind? an SB? sbs work only on chokes. the advent can simply retreat and you if you want to win will have to chance and decisively defeat him if you want to win. vs a advent spammer you will almost NEVER set up an SB in the system without it dying/ being at low health at deployment. so tell me what should i do?

This would all be fixed if Advent players couldnt spam Ilums. Maybe a build penalty on them?

Eh, that IMHO could get a bit sketchy. I say a reworking of the side beams is what is needed. Or give us poor TEC and Vasari a ship that can shoot almost 360 degrees and can hit 3 targest at once.

TEC-build 3 javelis for the cost of 1 illum. rotate each one 135 degrees. 360 degree coverage.

vasari-blow them up while they still have shields.

Their not gonan take away the side beams on the lums since it'S part fot he flavor of the game. The races aren't all identical. However the fact the lums can fire almost 360 is in great part the reason why they are oped. Sot he onyl thing left to do is nerf the damage the lum does and/or nerf it'S overall hp. If it can shoot 360 and is armored liek a tank it will quite naturaly be stronger then anything else.

I for one favor the HP nerf meaning it will still be able to cause lots of damage but they won't be able to achive much on their own like they can currently.

If you're talking about this late in the game, you better not be going after him with scouts...

IDEA!!!! maximum build limits per ship (i.e. ten Illums at Supply lvl 1, fifteen at lvl 2, and so on)  the totals in ship limits would well exceed the fleet supply, in order to allow for fleet variability, and this would prevent spamming.  obviously, these limits would have to be high, to ensure that there is plenty of variability in fleet sizes

Im not suggesting they remove the side beams(I like how they can shoot 3 things, wish I had that option as TEC and Vasari also), rather how the damage is split and maybe the firing arc slightly. Reducing their HP makes the glass cannons and that seems alright with me. Either reworking the side beam damage/converage or HP reduction but not both.

this doesnt answer my question im afraid. vitamin. 

Are you asking what the ideal late game fleet is? I'm not a vasari player so I don't know the best way to deal with an unnamed ideal advent fleet, but I am positive that scouts are not part of the equation.

If you're talking about an illum rush, amish has an excellent post describing a good vasari response, in which scouts are also not part of the response.

I think people need to understand that combat is abstracted in this game. In reality the ships aren't just sitting there while they lob destruction at each other. They're dodging, evading, moving in and out of range. Missles don't always hit. They're manuevering for position to gain an advantage. That's my explanation at least for the countering. LRFs are vulnerable to ships that can out manuever them enough that they can't bring their heavy guns to bear like scouts. I'm assuming LRFs have like forward armoring so they can handle counter attacks from range but everywhere else vulnerable armor. So scouts and fighters would rape LRFs because they're small precise weapons can focus on the LRFs vulnerable points disabling critical systems. LRFs are build purely to be big guns. Scouts are not just really scouts, they're also skirmishers.

vasari against Advent, you will want (assuming they don't have a illum or carrier spam) one/two Eggs, a decent amount of Assailants (about the same as Enforcers), maybe thirty or forty Enforcers, five-ten Subverters, ten-fifteen flak, and five-ten Overseers.  and then scale that for the enemy fleet size (Subverters stay about the same, maybe up to 20 for an uber slugfest; Overseers stay the same, maybe up to 20 for an uber slugfest) pretty much, you want to use Phase missiles a lot, and protect those ships.

All I think needs done is that

1. Flak gets a slight nerf

2. LRF's get a slight nerf

3. Carriers remain the same

4. And, this is most important, that people BALANCE their fleets.

The way I see things, the game has a very even system of Rock, Paper, Scissors, and Dynamite. (What?! You don't think this is even?! Well, let me explain:)

Rock is LRF and Flak spam, and Rock beats Scissors, as we all know.

Scissors is Carrier and, well, Carrier spamming. You don't really see this anymore, unless it's ridiculously MASSIVE. Scissors beats paper, as we all know.

Paper is Heavy Cruiser and LF spam. Not as common as "Rock" or "Scissors" spam, but it'll still get the job done. Paper beats rock. Most of the time, anyway.

Now, Dynamite is NOT A FORM OF SPAM! Dynamite, as I like to see it, is a well rounded and balanced fleet. This fleet would have, in the early game: A healthy mix of LF's, Scouts (thx, Raging Amish ) and LRF's. In the "Late Game" it would have a good few of every kind of ship, w/ a lean to either Rock, Paper or Scissors, depending on your personality (I'm a Dynamite/Scissors, fwi).

There, now if most people bothered to do some balancing in their fleets, spam would never really be a problem because if you have a balanced fleet, the counter to spam should be available in a heartbeat.

Koda0 (^)

my friend im no stranger to any of the races. what im trying to get at with vitamin is that scouts ARE needed. they need to be mixed in. ive beaten advents before. i know how the vasari fleet works. im just trying to understand vitamins point of view.

Fix fighters and ilum and lrf spam will go away.Im afraid lowering build rates of carriers isnt the answer but its better then nothing. It may fix the lrf but create others probs.At any rate these nerf ilums threads are a waste if they just fix fighters.If they nerf ilums and lrf then get around to fixing carriers then carriers will be way op.If they could bring fighter power back to the way it use to be without making bombers obsolete then the game would be near perfect.The prob with making bobmbers obsolete at least for advent is that they are advents only way to deal with sb.

Patch Stat Changes Forum:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356646

Amish, you deserve to be a moderator for this and the many other arguements you've posted.

If this ever happens please go on a rant deleteing spree.It'll prevent people from doing so by letting them know "This is not approved of."