Demigod's Current Biggest Problem: Heart of Life

I'm generally cautiously optomistic about balance problems when I first notice them.  Afterall, most times something looks imbalanced is right after it beat you, or you think that it beat you. Maybe it wasn't unbalanced, so much as you were just sucking?  Anyhow, I've kept my eye on the Heart for a while now, and I really think it is the worst effect on the game, in the game.

 

First, a few anecdotes:

 

1. Erebus chases someone all the way back to their health crystal trying to kill them, (failing, I might add).  First he goes into mist form for a second.  Then when he pops out of that, he activates Heart of life + Orb of defiance for 5 seconds, healing 1500 health and 2250 mana.  At the end of that 5 seconds, he bat swarms away.

2. 3v3, one player is Oak, and all of his team has the heart.  At level 7 he gets his 6 second long invuln shield.  Every time he invulns an ally (He or another) they also regen 1800/2700 health and mana.  MID combat no less.

These are both two extreme abuses of the heart, but let us talk a bit more about it's impact without any truly killer combos.

The most important starting point is to remember that Demigod is, at its core, a 'zero sum' game.  That means as one team gains strength (Generally via kills, or staying in a lane longer) the other team is weakened (Dying = less time to get money/xp, and getting chased from a lane means the same).

As most people know, this is part of the reason rage quitting occurs: You dig yourself into a hole, and quitting doesn't noticebly increase your chances of failure, so you do. In ANY game where this can happen, the game balance MUST be very careful not to TOO strongly award bonus' to temporary, or short term victors. In general DG does this by making the truly game winning items cost a whole heck of a lot.

The problem occurs though in about the first 5 or 6 levels.  If you get a fairly decent early advantage, maybe a kill or two, maybe getting to farm a lane a bit better, you will get to about 4000 gold noticeably before the other team.  This is also when you can pick up your heart of life.

 

So now that we consider the heart of life in the game combined with the fact that we are already doing fairly well, what does it let you do:

1. Stay alive longer. Even without any invuln shields, you still can duck behind a tower to heal up almost completely.

2. Stay in a lane longer.  Since you can keep at full health/mana, you can generally drive opponents from the lane, denying them XP and GOLD (And warscore) thus further cementing your victory.

 

The combination of these two effects strengthens any existing lead out of proportion, and very quickly creates a landslide effect.  Further more, in general the item acts as the strongest regenerative effect in the game, and is not a consumeable. It regens both health and mana, does so passively and in burst, and the price point for it is such that it impacts the early to mid game the strongest (When the team with the advantage can get them, but the other cannot).

 

Too Long; Didn't Read version:

1. Heart Helps a team with an advantage, press that advantage strongly

2. Heart's price point places it at a point in the game, where an advantage shouldn't be decisive. (Compared to, say, Ashkandor).

3. Heart trivializes most other health/regen items.

4. Heart combos in truly broken ways with invulnerability effects.

 

31,569 views 80 replies
Reply #1 Top

First of all i'd like to complement you on your writing style that proves to be quiet good,

 

Now to the matter of HoL :

i stumbled on this item when i was learning the game against the poor AI and fell in love with it for a while, proceeding to see if it works as good on humans as it did with their challenged artificial counterpart i indeed got a couple of easy win.

But after a while i found more interesting combos, more agressive, more cost efficient, and fitting a smooth strong build on certain demigods

 

For example, i am to say the least a fairly good player of the Torch Bearer, with whom i get ridiculously strong in most of the games and this withOUT HoL (even if as i mentionned earlier not even two weeks ago i couldn't imagine a build without it), try for example Blade of the Serpent and a combination of CHEAP regen/health items.

You'll realise that HoL is not really necessary to achieve as good results if not better.

 

About the Broken Combos, yes they exist, yes it's really irritating, and yes they are for most completly useless against a good teamplay. Healing some ridiculous amount of HP won't save you if the firepower of the opposite team is correctly focused on you, even more the advantage you speak about might just have been lost : by taking only regen where you could have taken more push or more damages, you might have just wasted your precious 4000 gold.

Why is it irritating quite a number of players ? Because they missed 2-3 kills, because a demigod almost dead could turn back and kill them where they thought they had the kill, well (and this is why i am writing this answer not to oppose your point of view wich is well built) it is something to count with; in other word it is an item which contributes to the richness of demigods strategies/tactics.

That's why in conclusion i support the HoL

i think it's a double edge blade that can be as powerful as you described but, that in front of a clever enough opponent can turn into a waste of money and time.

 

On the other hand this item wouldn't mind a bit more cooldown or one more thousand gold.

 

Thanks for reading

 

--

D

Reply #2 Top

I don't agree DeusCeaser above me. since Ithink there is NOT any more overpowered item than Heart of Life.

All good people I meet ingame used it, so do I.

 

Every Character, every Skill& Itembuild needs ways of regeneration for both HP and Mana since everyone will lose both from time to time :)

And there is Item for means of Regeneration that is more cost efficient than HoL since Potions cost way too much ofter time and normal reg isn't obtainable in meanful sizes on any item.

That Item is way too cheap for the active effect alone + it's cooldown is rediculous as well.

Imho that Item even corrupts the gameplay - tacticwise. No one cares for damage that can't kill you since you have your pocket Crystal with you so it rarly comes to decissions which are normal in Dota like: "Staying at the front receiving exp+gold and risking your life o saving later at the base". At least that Situation is rare after you got HoL.

And I don't think there is anyting more OP than HoL item wise, no fancy killer-combos there etc.

So I would rather see HoL taken out of game comepletly than just balancing it.

Reply #3 Top

HoL isnt that bad.

the only problem is oaks shield.

 

Reply #4 Top

The early gameplay before people get HoL and start seriously health stacking is definately more interesting and varied.

Reply #5 Top

Pruven will be happy to hear he's finally made it to the DG forums as a complaint.  :)  AND that it was noted he failed to get the kill.  Classic!

 

As I only briefly said in game: I agree, although I'll be damn sure to miss it if it's adjusted.

Reply #6 Top

I don't think Heart of Life is that good, it's quite expensive and can be easily interrupted.

So the only thing that needs to be changed is that you can use the heart while being invulnerable.

Reply #7 Top

You do realize HoL can be interrupted during Oak's invulerability using any interrupt skill?

Can't say for sure how it is with Orb of Defiance because I've never used nor seen it used.

 

That being said I rarely even buy it anymore since there are items more central to my (Sedna-)build that allow me to actually stay in combat rather than taking cover to use HoL.

 

Edit: This doesn't mean the price is necessarily where it should be.

Reply #8 Top

HoL shouldn't really regen mana.

But I don't think it's OP. You need a speedy DG to be able to run away and use it. As any pressure interrupts the effect. It cannot be used in battle as the basic health potion can. It does cut away the time to go back to base and heal

Reply #9 Top

HoL makes potions completely pointless imo. I don't buy them ever except maybe at the very start, but even then it's often more cost effective to run back to the crystal than spend money on potions. HoL is annoying because it means unless you kill someone outright, they never have to leave the lane, it completely takes the harassing strategy from the game. There is no more "hmm I should hang back a bit, I'm only half health" or anything, it's just "WEEE FULL HEALTH". It just makes the game utterly pointless when you can fight someone get them to almost dead, but have to get away before you die, then before you can even get back to your fountain, they are already full health and pushing even furthur.

Reply #10 Top

HoL's cooldown needs to be changed from 30 seconds to 40 or 45.

Apart from thats its fine. Oaks shield and orb of defiance should still allow HoL to get interupted.

Reply #11 Top

i agree with DalzK. 

 

those are precisely the two changes I would make, perhaps even more severe on the cooldown, i was going to suggest 60 seconds. 

Reply #12 Top

I don't like HoL as it is now. Breaks the flow of the game.

 

:fox:

Reply #13 Top

I wouldnt say its op, but I would like to remove it from the game. It destroys (as was mentioned) an important part of the game, where a demigod needs to worry about keeping his HP high. This item allows for most classes to jump out and in with full hp;mana (very strong).

But it has drawbacks, such as late game the item becomes less of use since towers are usually destroyed so enemy demigods can chase for longer and preven HoT. When you being chased its better to have spent the gold on +mana/+hp items. Say 1xClown for 1 750g, body armor 1500, and speed boots, which equals the cost of the HoL.

Some classes really shine with it though, QOT, Earbus, Tower rook.

Others like reg, torch, and sedga shine less. 

Reply #14 Top

45 sec cooldown, 3s cast... is my suggestion.

Reply #15 Top

Casting time is a good idea.

Reply #16 Top

The HoL is not the end all of items that everyone needs. I rarely ever get it. The only times I'll get it is on large or very large maps and if I know I will be able to use it without being interupted. If there's a beast on the other team I normally don't even bother with it.

Using straight up normal items usually benefit me more. I tend to like to stack up on hp regen items and then just the velmish helm usually takes care of all my needs for an equal price and allows me to actually sit in the fight and win or even 2v1 sometimes.

Though sometimes I do like the option of getting it to have low hp but constantly full hp. But that's when I'm in a hit-and-run kind of mood and feel like deceiving the other player with my low hp.

A cooldown increase wouldn't be horrible but it's fine without any changes also. You just have to know how to deal with it. If you're complaining about how much more hp an oak or QoT can get with it in the middle of combat, just think, if they had spent their gold on straight hp boosting and regen they'd have much more.

Reply #17 Top

I agree with most of whats here. I beleive when they designed the item it was meant for something to use outside of combat. So i think that the item should be interrupted when your hit with an attack at all. Whether your invul or not. Also another suggestion. Why not make it two items? Take the price down to 3750(suggestion) for each item. Heart of Life(health) Heart of Energy(Mana) and give them 45s cool downs with 2s cast times? Maybe that would work? That way if you want the whole thing its 2 trinket items with two castings at 7300 gold?

 

 

Edit: Scratch the interupted when using even if invul. I don't want to lose pro moves like that. And I think combos like that are really healthy to the gameplay experiance. I just beleive the item should be a pick between either health or mana but not both.

Reply #18 Top

You should have to stand still while using HoL.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting AngryZealot, reply 18
You should have to stand still while using HoL.

Not bad, but the real issue for me is orb/oak players which can accomodate this nicely.

Reply #20 Top

How about keeping the total healing and mana restored the same, but upping the duration? That way you don't get a whole lot under shield and what not...

Reply #21 Top

You should have to stand still while using HoL.

I've always thought this is the solution to HoL.  Also make a visible graphic so you know when someone is using the damn thing. (Wand of speed has a graphic)

Or make it so the HoL restores Hp, or mana, but definitely not BOTH.

HoL is good for every single hero because every single hero uses mana.  HoL makes it so that you can spam your skills with abandon.  The only person I don't get it with is Sedna because she doesn't exactly need it.

Nevermind the few ways you can use HoL during combat to give a massive advantage (Erebus bat swarm a short distance and pop it, Oak shield, stun and use it, etc)

Reply #22 Top

I would also argue that HOL in not OP.  The problem is it is cheesy.  The fact that you do not have to worry about health and mana because you can walk a few steps away and have it back in a couple of seconds kills an important aspect of the game.

 

How about decreasing the rate at which it regens health and mana.  Make the item regen around 30 health/mana per second for 10 seconds (still interupted by damage).  That way it is still usefull but not a portable crystal.  Also as stated before it should be interuptable while invulnurable.

Reply #23 Top

HoL should be an assassin item only

I only consider it OP to generals since they have ways to use it while not getten attacked except QoT.

 

Increase duration would help as well as as increase the cd.

Reply #24 Top

I remember when I used to think the HoL was an essential item. As soon as I would reach 4250 gold I'd be back to base getting it. "Ooh boy I'm uber now!"

As I've gotten better it has increasingly become a POS waste of cash. Good players interrupt it constantly and I'd much rather have two pieces of nice gear plus a full complement of locks, teleports and mana potions then the HoL.

In fact, the only time I get it now is when my gear slots are full, I have 4k cash to waste and I want better regen. 95% of the time I'll take Narmoth over HoL.

Against noobs it feels overpowered, sure. They don't realize how easy it is to interrupt. They don't realize how screwed you are if you are counting on your heart to stay alive. They don't realize the triggerable effect rarely pays off vs. two large mana and health potions. And there are plenty of favor items and cheap mana potions that will let you spam skills nearly indefinitely anyways, not to mention maps that enable this behavior as well. Although, good players will keep you pressured enough that you can't just sit around spamming skills.

Shield+HOL = occasionally annoying. The fact that only two or three Demigods can interrupt it is not the greatest game mechanic, I agree.

Reply #25 Top

I made a thread suggesting that the host of a game should be able to disable indivudual items from their game, up to 5 of them or so, but I got flamed by the usual useless stuck-up pricks who just spew out their regular "suck less" or "l2p", the only poster who actually mentioned counters listed "chase them and don't allow them to use it, get your minions to attack them, or get angels" which are terrible counters.

We need more people supporting this idea, the heart of life is bs. ALLOW US TO DISABLE INDIVIDUAL ITEMS PLZ stardock.