Zechnophobe

Demigod's Current Biggest Problem: Heart of Life

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Demigod's Current Biggest Problem: Heart of Life

from Demigod Forums

I'm generally cautiously optomistic about balance problems when I first notice them.  Afterall, most times something looks imbalanced is right after it beat you, or you think that it beat you. Maybe it wasn't unbalanced, so much as you were just sucking?  Anyhow, I've kept my eye on the Heart for a while now, and I really think it is the worst effect on the game, in the game.

 

First, a few anecdotes:

 

1. Erebus chases someone all the way back to their health crystal trying to kill them, (failing, I might add).  First he goes into mist form for a second.  Then when he pops out of that, he activates Heart of life + Orb of defiance for 5 seconds, healing 1500 health and 2250 mana.  At the end of that 5 seconds, he bat swarms away.

2. 3v3, one player is Oak, and all of his team has the heart.  At level 7 he gets his 6 second long invuln shield.  Every time he invulns an ally (He or another) they also regen 1800/2700 health and mana.  MID combat no less.

These are both two extreme abuses of the heart, but let us talk a bit more about it's impact without any truly killer combos.

The most important starting point is to remember that Demigod is, at its core, a 'zero sum' game.  That means as one team gains strength (Generally via kills, or staying in a lane longer) the other team is weakened (Dying = less time to get money/xp, and getting chased from a lane means the same).

As most people know, this is part of the reason rage quitting occurs: You dig yourself into a hole, and quitting doesn't noticebly increase your chances of failure, so you do. In ANY game where this can happen, the game balance MUST be very careful not to TOO strongly award bonus' to temporary, or short term victors. In general DG does this by making the truly game winning items cost a whole heck of a lot.

The problem occurs though in about the first 5 or 6 levels.  If you get a fairly decent early advantage, maybe a kill or two, maybe getting to farm a lane a bit better, you will get to about 4000 gold noticeably before the other team.  This is also when you can pick up your heart of life.

 

So now that we consider the heart of life in the game combined with the fact that we are already doing fairly well, what does it let you do:

1. Stay alive longer. Even without any invuln shields, you still can duck behind a tower to heal up almost completely.

2. Stay in a lane longer.  Since you can keep at full health/mana, you can generally drive opponents from the lane, denying them XP and GOLD (And warscore) thus further cementing your victory.

 

The combination of these two effects strengthens any existing lead out of proportion, and very quickly creates a landslide effect.  Further more, in general the item acts as the strongest regenerative effect in the game, and is not a consumeable. It regens both health and mana, does so passively and in burst, and the price point for it is such that it impacts the early to mid game the strongest (When the team with the advantage can get them, but the other cannot).

 

Too Long; Didn't Read version:

1. Heart Helps a team with an advantage, press that advantage strongly

2. Heart's price point places it at a point in the game, where an advantage shouldn't be decisive. (Compared to, say, Ashkandor).

3. Heart trivializes most other health/regen items.

4. Heart combos in truly broken ways with invulnerability effects.

 

demigod
31,569 views 80 replies
Reply #26 from Demigod Forums Top

ALLOW US TO DISABLE INDIVIDUAL ITEMS PLZ stardock.
The problem with this is that every game people play will have fundementally different balance. Suddenly half the armor is disabled while the host stacks armor reducing skills, or speed is gone while they load up on slows...

 

:fox:

Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top

I kind of like that idea regardless of balance issues.  GPG should be familiar with it as the option to disable specific units was available in Supreme Commander as well.

Object Desktop - Get all of our enhancement utilities in one suite
Reply #28 from Demigod Forums Top

Hmm disabling certain items optionally may not be a bad idea. But some builds kinda need certain items.

Reply #29 from Demigod Forums Top

I hate to interject an opinion here, but I think it's fair to say that the ability to host public games with unit restrictions was one of the worse decisions GPG ever made. It fragmented the community into many different sects of noobs (who ONLY played "no air no rush", "land wars", "no game enders", etc) and everyone else who wanted to play the actual game with all of the options it was originally designed for. Yes it makes some people happy that they can turn off this or that feature they don't know how to play against, but ultimately, as I just said, it fragments the community.

Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top

But some builds kinda need certain items.
More to the point, some Demigods need certain items. I don't want to play as TB or Sedna without mana items againt auto-attack UB and Reg.

 

:fox:

Reply #31 from Demigod Forums Top

HOL needs to be removed. It breaks the fundamental disadvantage of being on the offense. Once a team gets HOL (4 k isn't even that much) and controls the first set of middle flags they can push into the 2nd set of flags without ever having to run back to base. It makes hunkering down and trying to make a comeback much more difficult. You chase a hero off only to have him step back 3 stesp and full health up and come in again. It takes me longer to run back to my crystal. Without HOL, we can expect more back and forth fighting, which is going to be more fun for everyone.

 

Reply #32 from Demigod Forums Top

1. Erebus chases someone all the way back to their health crystal trying to kill them, (failing, I might add).  First he goes into mist form for a second.  Then when he pops out of that, he activates Heart of life + Orb of defiance for 5 seconds, healing 1500 health and 2250 mana.  At the end of that 5 seconds, he bat swarms away.

I'm sorry, but this is patently ridiculous. If someone chases you all the way back to your health crystal and then mists, stand there and wait for them to come out. Then start wacking them. They'll never get a chance to activate the heart inside your base with all those towers and creeps and you standing there.


2. 3v3, one player is Oak, and all of his team has the heart.  At level 7 he gets his 6 second long invuln shield.  Every time he invulns an ally (He or another) they also regen 1800/2700 health and mana.  MID combat no less.

This is theory craft. In a close battle with equally skilled opponents you might get away with this ONCE. Also, an oak who spends three of his first seven skill points on shield is good for pretty much one thing only: suicide or rambo missions. If you are using shield as a crux for poor play then you will have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm not going to argue with other good players whether the heart could use some tweaks or not. What I do have a problem with is the number of people who are obviously not very good at the game yet calling for complete removal or major nerfs because of some hypothetical scenario they can come up with to exploit it. It's just not that powerful guys, sorry.

People will be calling for potion nerfs once the heart is gone because potions do the exact same thing, are faster, and for the vast majority of good games with good players, are cheaper too.

Reply #33 from Demigod Forums Top



1. Heart Helps a team with an advantage, press that advantage strongly

 

game is not supposed to make losing team pass the others

if you take such a great advantage that team 1 get HOL wayy b4 team2 than its clear team 2 is made of noobs, period

in fair games both team got the money to take it about the same time

 



3. Heart trivializes most other health/regen items.

this is true only for bad designed items

most good items got HP+HP regen and those are good even with HOL

 

4. Heart combos in truly broken ways with invulnerability effects.

 

 

yes  but invulnerability effects are OP in every single game

 

Reply #34 from Demigod Forums Top

A few quick Rebuttals.  I won't quote anyone in specific to limit the flamey-ness these kind of threads can become:

 

1) "I got better, and no longer think the HoL is good anymore." -- This isn't much of an argument, since you are attempting to factor in player quality as part of what makes an item strong or weak. I have raised points such as how the item effects the tempo of the game, and how it accents too strongly a team with an advantage.

 

2) "It is interruptible, and therefore not a problem." -- This is mainly an argument against Shield + Heart, since obviously any damage interrupts the effect. It is true that stuns or interrupts will also stop the heart, but it is a very situational fix.  Only a few DG's can really hold onto an effect like that, while also still being able to put the person into a situation where they need to heal. Just in general though, you can be Out of mana, the ability could have been recently used, frozen, or silenced.

Lastly, I just want to accept a comment by Woppin:

The early gameplay before people get HoL and start seriously health stacking is definately more interesting and varied.

This is a pretty good point.  The game pre HOL has people measuring mana, and health while staying in a lane.  There is a dynamic of 'how long can I stay', comparing the risk of being in a lane at half health and gaining more gold and xp, vs getting killed by the opponent and sent back to the base.  If you've ever been in the situation of playing Heart vs Heart, especially around like level 6, where towers are still mean and nasty, you know how the game gets stagnant pretty quick.  You aren't yet strong enough to solokill an opponent without them making some terrible mistakes, and you both just end up sneering at each other from across the lane.

Anyhow, I think this horse has a little life left in him, so I'm beating away...

 

Reply #35 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting _Shadow, reply 7

I'm sorry, but this is patently ridiculous. If someone chases you all the way back to your health crystal and then mists, stand there and wait for them to come out. Then start wacking them. They'll never get a chance to activate the heart inside your base with all those towers and creeps and you standing there.

I hate to invoke an oft ill used internet meme... but did you read the entire anecdote? He activated orb of defiance (Invulnerability) + heart of life at roughly the same time as soon as he got out of mist. All three of his opponents stood right next to him while he did it, attempting to wail on him. It *is* ridiculous that this worked, that is the reason for the post :).

 


This is theory craft. In a close battle with equally skilled opponents you might get away with this ONCE. Also, an oak who spends three of his first seven skill points on shield is good for pretty much one thing only: suicide or rambo missions. If you are using shield as a crux for poor play then you will have no idea what I'm talking about.
[/quote]

I am finding it heart to level headedly argue with you.  These were both 'anecdotes' as in 'something that I witnessed recently'. I may have misremembered what level the oak was, or whether or not it was a 6 second invuln or a 4, but either way it was extremely effective as both prevention and healing.

I'm not going to argue with other good players whether the heart could use some tweaks or not. What I do have a problem with is the number of people who are obviously not very good at the game yet calling for complete removal or major nerfs because of some hypothetical scenario they can come up with to exploit it. It's just not that powerful guys, sorry.

People will be calling for potion nerfs once the heart is gone because potions do the exact same thing, are faster, and for the vast majority of good games with good players, are cheaper too.

Reply #36 from Demigod Forums Top

This is theory craft. In a close battle with equally skilled opponents you might get away with this ONCE. Also, an oak who spends three of his first seven skill points on shield is good for pretty much one thing only: suicide or rambo missions. If you are using shield as a crux for poor play then you will have no idea what I'm talking about.
Been there, done that. Got a skirmish as Reg+QoT against dual Oak. One of the most pointless games I've played yet, as we had no decent interrupt.

 

:fox:

Reply #37 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Zechnophobe, reply 9
1) "I got better, and no longer think the HoL is good anymore." -- This isn't much of an argument, since you are attempting to factor in player quality as part of what makes an item strong or weak. I have raised points such as how the item effects the tempo of the game, and how it accents too strongly a team with an advantage.

It's definitely a valid argument. If an item feels too powerful because your opponents are not good enough to punish you when another item selection would have been better then your analysis is woefully incomplete.

I do understand what you are trying to say about changing the tempo, but what I'm saying is that you haven't seen how that happens anyways once people have proper mana gear, potions and/or favor items. Good builds that are heavily mana dependent spec for mana anyways, by the time they can truly afford to get the heart they rarely need to actually spam it. In a good, tough game on most maps you really don't have time to just pop out of battle for 10 seconds and heal up with your heart, by then your opponent has already secured their objective (for instance, your portal flag).

What you are saying about how it too strongly accents a team with an advantage is not well thought out. That argument can be applied to any item or strategy utilized by a winning team (i.e., is it fair that a winning team can cap your portal flag, lock it and then teleport away after they've pushed you back enough? Of course it is.)

Most of the people who think heart is almost always the best thing to get as soon as they can afford it are about halfway there to reaching the current state of the art of Demigod play (which of course is always evolving and no one stays there forever without constant practice). You can pummel newer players all day but haven't been truly challenged to the point where getting the heart too early causes you to lose.

Quoting Zechnophobe, reply 9

2) "It is interruptible, and therefore not a problem." -- This is mainly an argument against Shield + Heart, since obviously any damage interrupts the effect. It is true that stuns or interrupts will also stop the heart, but it is a very situational fix.  Only a few DG's can really hold onto an effect like that, while also still being able to put the person into a situation where they need to heal. Just in general though, you can be Out of mana, the ability could have been recently used, frozen, or silenced.

You are actually making my point here about needing more experience: ANY attack interrupts the heart, including creeps, minions, towers, auto attack plus any skills. You may have run from the Demigod but did you outrun his minions?

Quoting Zechnophobe, reply 9

This is a pretty good point.  The game pre HOL has people measuring mana, and health while staying in a lane.  There is a dynamic of 'how long can I stay', comparing the risk of being in a lane at half health and gaining more gold and xp, vs getting killed by the opponent and sent back to the base.  If you've ever been in the situation of playing Heart vs Heart, especially around like level 6, where towers are still mean and nasty, you know how the game gets stagnant pretty quick.  You aren't yet strong enough to solokill an opponent without them making some terrible mistakes, and you both just end up sneering at each other from across the lane.

Your observation about the early game involving precise measurement and control of mana/HP is correct. What is not correct is your assesment about people getting heart of life at level 6. That is WAY too early. Seriously, if you do that against a good player he's simply going to chase you, even into your towers (because he spent all that cash on armor and HP) and punish you. Or push you back sufficiently far to be able to cap the flag, lock it, and laugh while you sit there unable to get your flag back.

Another thing: if you are playing against good players, more then likely you won't even have first blood by level 6. You just don't have the cash to get a heart to the exclusion of everything else.

Finally, quote me all you want, I'm not here to flame. I'm simply stating facts obtained through empirical observation (from both sides).

Reply #38 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Kitkun, reply 11

Been there, done that. Got a skirmish as Reg+QoT against dual Oak. One of the most pointless games I've played yet, as we had no decent interrupt.

He was referring to a 3v3 battle, as was I. Also, Kitkun, you should know better then to take on a double Oak team with no way to interrupt through their shield. They can also teleport or potion up through it, so this argument is not directly pertinent to the HoL anyways.

Reply #39 from Demigod Forums Top

Although the HoL could use some tweaking, it is hardly the games biggest problem.

 

* Connection issues

* Being able to play stabily in 5v5

 

Are far bigger.


I would even argue that Priests are a bigger issue. I have lost so many games due to n00b players buying the damn things as soon as you hit war rank 4. How a citadel "upgrade" = Team lose is beyond me.

HoL has had little effect on the games I have played. Players have lost using it, players have won using it.

However, now I am playing mostly as Ooze UB, I have little use of it, and if people are running away from me, they are dead.

One easy counter for the HoL is make sure you have speed debuffs at hand, they can't run away to use it then. :)

Shielded Oak using the HoL is a bit of a problem. Most probably make it so that no item or skill can be activated when shielded.

 

Reply #40 from Demigod Forums Top

You may have run from the Demigod but did you outrun his minions?

All minions are slower than the Demigods, so yeah, you did.  Once you get that 3 feet of seperation because your move speed is higher you can pop the HoL and heal right in front of their face if you time it correctly.

Reply #41 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting InfiniteVengeance, reply 15

You may have run from the Demigod but did you outrun his minions?


All minions are slower than the Demigods, so yeah, you did.  Once you get that 3 feet of seperation because your move speed is higher you can pop the HoL and heal right in front of their face if you time it correctly.

Uh, spirits?

Reply #42 from Demigod Forums Top

There are not Oak spirits on you all the time, and even so you can still outrun them while filling your bars.

Reply #43 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting InfiniteVengeance, reply 17
There are not Oak spirits on you all the time, and even so you can still outrun them while filling your bars.

I suggest you go race one. Have fun :)

Not to mention I was not even referring specifically to oak spirits, any ranged minion would work. Unless you plan on running so far away as to concede the flag in your lane.

Reply #44 from Demigod Forums Top

You concede the flag for a moment while you fill your bars and come back.  Now you're full health and mana and they are not.  Soon they will be the one conceding the flag.

Reply #45 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting InfiniteVengeance, reply 19
You concede the flag for a moment while you fill your bars and come back.  Now you're full health and mana and they are not.  Soon they will be the one conceding the flag.

Since I already addressed this, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I invite you to find two other people and come play us sometime and find out for yourself how well your early game dart-fight-run-heart strategy works.

Reply #46 from Demigod Forums Top

I already know it works because I use it to great effect in most games.

 

The fact that nearly everyone gets a Heart of Life is a pretty big statement on how effective it is regardless of the innumerable theorycraft counters that don't practically work.

And you know why?  Because 80% of the time you don't even know they have a Heart of Life because you can't see the items on enemies and there's no in game graphic that it's being used.

Reply #47 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting InfiniteVengeance, reply 21
I already know it works because I use it to great effect in most games.

 

The fact that nearly everyone gets a Heart of Life is a pretty big statement on how effective it is regardless of the innumerable theorycraft counters that don't practically work.

And you know why?  Because 80% of the time you don't even know they have a Heart of Life because you can't see the items on enemies and there's no in game graphic that it's being used.

 

Alright, you aren't willing to prove it. Noted. BTW, it's very easy to see. Protip: turn on the life bars!

Reply #48 from Demigod Forums Top

HoL makes potions completely pointless imo. I don't buy them ever except maybe at the very start, but even then it's often more cost effective to run back to the crystal than spend money on potions. HoL is annoying because it means unless you kill someone outright, they never have to leave the lane, it completely takes the harassing strategy from the game. There is no more "hmm I should hang back a bit, I'm only half health" or anything, it's just "WEEE FULL HEALTH". It just makes the game utterly pointless when you can fight someone get them to almost dead, but have to get away before you die, then before you can even get back to your fountain, they are already full health and pushing even furthur.

 

Yeah straight to the point!

It's funny if people call HoL counterable in any way...

It's allmost impossible to kill any skilled player with full HP, especially in 1v1 situations.

Your target should be at least down to 80% to start a succesful attemp vs. skilled players.

Because of that and because there are no means of keeping the enemies in battle since they can alway run back out of your range under their towers security it's allways possible to use HoL without interrupting danger.

Because of the lack of any extrem strong regeneration dota plays quite different than Demigod:

Harrasing is actually a strong tactic and you often come to the pint where the questiona arises: Stay in lane to get exp and perhaps die or play save and heal in the base.

HoL negates that tactic completly and I would like to see arguments on how that is not gamebracking.

 

Reply #49 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Sinzer, reply 14
Although the HoL could use some tweaking, it is hardly the games biggest problem.

 

* Connection issues

* Being able to play stabily in 5v5

 

Play stability in 5v5 is a 'big issue'? I completely disagree.  Most games are 3v3 (custom) or 2v2 (skirmish) and not just for stability reasons. They are the sizes that people want to play.  5v5 requires too many player commitments to be consistent, independant of whether it runs well or not.

Connection issues seem to be okay, but I do admit that my thinking of 'everyone I play with connects fine' is rather illogical... if they couldn't connect I wouldn't be playing with them.

We are at the point where balancing the game, especially 'trivial' balances such as changing the number on an item, get by far the most bang for the buck. The number of games you would make 'more fun' by changing the Heart's numbers would be huge, and take a pretty simple bit of patching.  Working on the edge case of 5v5 skirmish's will take a lot of work, and have very little actual effect.

For those in the tech industry, it is easy to see 5v5 stability type problems as the worst, because of the interesting problem and solution set that goes into them.  However the much more mundane things like 'game flow' almost always end up bigger.

Reply #50 from Demigod Forums Top

Personally I'd like to see the HP restoration from HoL completely removed, or put into a seperate item, and for the price to stay the same.

 

If you can get out of the enemies attack range you shouldn't be able to full heal and turn back around in 10 secs.