My point was that he claimed that what he didnt like was bad, that is a bad argument and shouldnt be uttered.

There are loads of people getting told off by other people who where let down by this game in general, but also the developers inability of fixing known bugs (networkcode, alt+tab etc) and still releasing it, people dont trust reviews any more, why should they? Look at cane and lynch for instance, what people trust is what others tell them, and at the moment outside these forums there arent many happy thoughts.

But that is where you are wrong, there are loads of used viable strategies and heroes,  dont know what you are getting at, most heroes are viable in one way or another if played well, some may be more than others(techies comes to mind) but saying there is only a handfull?

Please list some of these best combinations.

How do you manipulate them? You leave your lane walks towards your oponent, hope to catch him offguard and then hopefully kill him, how do you "manipulate" game mechanics when it is working as intended?

more of a gearcheck and spellcycle check and who has the most flags. The player skill comes from using stuff like fog of war and bending it to their advantage, not to auto attack/cast spells at someone untill they (hopefully) die.

no for newbs you iddiot in like 2 years time  some people buy it  because other people say it is good they might l;ook at all the characters and think  huh what did he do  then get owned and thing this dfuck sucks asshole

It's pointless to argue which one deeper. It would be much better to ask for specific things from DotA to be added to DG to make it better.

It seems even the DotA people don't want 80 DGs, but want more then 12. I'm still waiting on why having more DGs is better then having less with multiple playing styles and adaptability(sp?). I'd also think using dev time for more varied abilities (such as some map control or scouting ones) for old or new DG's would be better then having another DG that does damage and perhaps a stun or slow.

Thinking of ways to make the maps reward more varied strategies and tactics would be a good idea too and it sounds like there are some good ideas worth stealing in DotA for that...

 

P.S. Using D&D as an example of why it's good to have lots of options is stupid. It has always had atrocious balance. Try a couple of duels or other PVP before starting the actual game and you will see..

how many times this isn't dota  or a remake  all dota fans who think this is just a second version   bugger off

I dont want a second version, im arguing why DotA has more depth than demigod.

I think that every point ive been making should be implemented(at least some parts of the mechanics, maybe not a carbon copy) and they are one way to create imense depth in demigod.

D & D is decided with a dice...

Imo they are the same, as long as they dont add like 20 different builds and fuck over new people starting the game.

my point exactly.

 

Now that being said, I expect LoL to be much closer to DotA as it's made by guinsoo, we dont need two games that are trying to be the same thing in this new genre, so I hope demigod developers can learn by the failure of a release(yes it was horrible with both unpolished gameplay and front end code) and can make this game really good as fast as possible to keep the game alive.

Can you make a list on what precisely should be done with perhaps some short explanation on why it would improve the game? I think you have mainly talked about better los and having a lot more DGs...?

So? Are you saying that having someone roll a lot more dice or needing to get a better number from them or just plain having better stats has absolutely nothing to do with who wins?

Having lots of viable options is a lot easier on the newbie then having 80 DGs with 50 of them newbie traps with the 30 viable ones having only one viable build that you have to go look up from somewhere since most of the options are just newbie traps.

As in if a newbie starts a game and picks a DG mainly because of looks and powers and items on what sounds good, he should naturally be at a disadvantage. But NOT because he has chosen one of the trap DGs that arent actually any good unless there is one specific DG as an opponent or because he has chosen a power that isnt actually good for anything. He should be at a disadvantage because he cant yet choose stuff pre-emptively or use them right. As in get the interrupt because the opponent is relying heavily on powerful abilities that can be easily interrupted or staying away from the DG thats very strong in the beginning until he has gotten a few levels.

Agree on the netcode. However the gameplay is rather polished imo. It may not have enough options but thats a diffrent thing.

Here it is again...

I like the idea of having more "stuff" in my games. the trouble this creates though is with new players. I have no problem with 2 new demigods a month, that kind of constantly expanding content in games is great for me. But what happens when someone new to the game logs on for the first time and sees a list of 50 characters to choose from? see the problem? the deeper taht you make a game, the less accesable it becomes to new gamers. Also, the thing that makes the demigods we have now so great is how unique they are. trying to make even 8 more demigods, just as uniqe could be difficult. the more they add, the more potential for samey demigods.

Not really.  I can only speak for myself, of course, but I'd be perfectly happy to see that.  Many people out there enjoy having options that won't run dry quickly. 

How the community treats newer players trying to decide who they like, I think, would be the only real cause for concern but as time goes on, that's going to be an issue regardless of how much variety there is.

Well, im not expecting much but I would like to see more ppl playing. I have hard time finding games sometimes. 16 DEMIGOD though, seems a bit too many to play. I would like to see a moderate number like 10-12 and they have to be balanced out.

my 2 cents that no one will ever see, definately less than 20 demigod's for sure, and i think it goes without saying that they wouldn't put that many man hourse into making that much new content ( animations balancing= alot of hours) anyway, but 12 or 16 sounds good to me, 4 more this year 4 more nest, maybe..thats being realistic

Demigods that launch kittens at unsuspecting foes, thats what I want! Seriously I would like to see more demigods, but also more options for people like me who love to swarm people with minions and not even having to be near them. More minions types would be very cool along with new demigods. I can say 80 demigods is indeed a bit much and more than 20 seems like overkill.

In the AOS/DOTA genre it is well known that team work wins games. With that being said it is important to have team based skills. I do not see alot of the current demigod's being useful in competitive play. Assuming that Demigod is balanced for a 5v5, demigods what would be most useful would have some kind of area of effect disable or damage, so other team members can cause damage or cast their area of effect spells. Currently i dont see how weak minions are going to contribute as much as Rain of Ice would in a team battle. I think it is important to keep in mind the amount of players that are going to be on a team when balancing spells and new demigods. In my opinion, demigod should be made for 5v5 matches, and should be balanced as such. Just my opinion.

-DiCEM0nEY

Not really. It DOES make it harder to win when you are starting out, but that's really ok imo since it also means that you have longer before you start to get bored with the options you have. However adding lots and lots of demigods would make it less accessable since you have to learn more before you have any realistic chance of competing. With less DGs with more varied playstyles, you still have to learn, but after the first couple of games, you learn what to expect from a DG. "That thing just sits there and kills anything that gets too close. That thing does lots and lots of AoE damage. Thats a healer." Yeah you can still be suprised if he's using uncommon options (whut? ok that one makes walls and his meleedamage is less then normal), but most of the DG is still the same and you can start countering those advantages and using those disadvantages earlier (say not using minions against the one with the overabundance of AoE damage, letting the stationary dude sit there and do something else and getting some +damage stuff or interrupts and going for the healer first). It also helps you to pick a DG to learn if there are bigger diffrences between them. Then you can start testing the various options that the DG has.

Me too. Unfortunately it would either be totally overpowered or totally underpowered. If the minions are enough to actually get something done, it would be overpowered because you cant really be killed while doing things and if the minions are useless, you are useless. The kitten DG sounds good tho..

I wasn’t aware you had a direct connection to all of the people who purchased Demigod and were able to speak on their behalf. My statement was that, on the forums, there were not many people saying they were deliberately not playing Demigod because it was shallow and were waiting until new content was released. This has nothing to do with review scores or ‘Kane and Lynch’.

As for the Developers ‘inability of fixing known bugs’, when an issue like connectivity pops up, this takes priority over ‘bugs’. The MP code was broken. It was tested under what they considered stressful circumstances and released what they believed to be a capable multiplayer system. Obviously they underestimated how many people were going to use their service on launch, and they’re now trying as hard as humanly possible to fix this. I should also add the Developer is Gas Powered Games, and Stardock are the publisher. It’s the Publisher trying to correct the connectivity issues. It has nothing to with ‘inability’ – it has more to do with there not being enough hours in the day to get it done faster.

Comparing this to DotA, where the makers of the mod did nothing connectivity wise – Blizzard Entertainment did all that prior, and used a highly capable service based on nearly 10 years in the industry; Battle.net. Being as Battle.net is actually one of if not the best multiplayer services around this would be like comparing an Independent Film to a Hollywood Blockbuster in terms of computer generated effects and marketing; no comparison.

Razor, Mirana, Axe, Kardel, Darkterror, Faceless Void comes to mind right off the bat. Sven, Vengeful. Viper, Luna, Abbadon is another I saw quite a bit (All stars).
Feel free to tear these down, as I know you will, however it won’t change the fact that I’ve seen these exact combinations on pre-arranged teams far too often.


’Ganking’ is a term referred to in several games, where you catch your opponent at a disadvantage where the odds are stacked heavily in your favour. While this is a great way to win, it devolves the game into “Wait till he can’t possibly fight back” which is not very fun if you’re on the receiving end. As I mentioned, I used this tactic myself and became bored – when seeking an alternative method, I realised DotA places ‘Ganking’ as a core mechanic. LoS manipulation plays heavily into this ‘Ganking’ tactic, and while LoS manipulation itself isn’t bad, saved my ass a few times, the fact that the general strategy is to remove your opponents ability to fight back at all removes the fun of ‘fighting’.

Demigod doesn’t use LoS as a core mechanic of its battles amongst Demigods – it’s available to give you an edge, but it’s not something you need to manipulate in order to succeed. The fact that LoS manipulation played so heavily into success in DotA as opposed to the actual Heroes themselves – agreed that some Heroes are better suited than others – shows that the Heroes lack depth because they have to revert to LoS manipulation. Track down the original version of DotA and dig up some old forum posts; people were originally annoyed with LoS manipulation until it became acceptable for the game to devolve into LoS Gank fests. There was no way to remove the LoS manipulation from the Mod as LoS was required to hide what your team was doing providing a strategic edge – disabling the Fog of War would have ruined that aspect of the game. Again, Demigod avoided this situation altogether – placing the focus on the Demigods and their abilities.

Player skill comes from using the mechanics of the game to avoid actually fighting your opponent and instead resolving to remove their ability to fight back? Ever played World of Warcraft? Ever been stun-locked from 100% to death? Not very fun, is it? Similar principle here. Great if your doing it, shite if it’s happening to you. If DotA was as deep as you claim, wouldn’t this mechanic be outdated because of a Heroes abilities and a players skill in using them?

Demigod does use a lot of the ol’ whack ‘em till they die approach, however it’s not about:
1. Walk up. Use first ability.
2. Use second ability.

3. Gauge health deficit as a result from opponent’s two abilities.
4. If winning, auto-attack. If losing, retreat.
5. Repeat.
It’s about careful use of your abilities – they’re supposed to be God-like powers, not Auto-attacks that should be used with abandon.
Take Lord Erebus, for example. His Bite ability takes health from your opponent and heals you for the damage. Most people try and open with this – completely ignoring this ability’s primary function. This is a heal spell that also damages your opponent. Open with an Auto-attack, let your opponent burn through their abilities, when your health is down the amount your Bite does in damage, use it. This ensures the cooldown will be up as soon as possible, while also negating the damage done by your opponent’s abilities. If need be, pop Mass Charm to buy you a few seconds. When your opponent is unstunned, they’ll try to pull back – use Bat to get ahead of them, while dealing damage, and close with a Bite leaving you in a great position possibly post battle and them close to death. This applies only to Melee Demigods however, and the tactic changes quite substantially when facing a ranged opponent, as opening with an Auto-attack is next to useless.

I have to completely disagree with this statement on just about every level. I’m not saying 80 Demigods is a good idea, however it’s not for this reason. If developers start designing their games so damn simple that players can pick up the game and know everything about it before they’ve finished their first match then I’m retiring from playing video games altogether. EA Games has ruined its franchises with this “accessibility” bullshit. If someone is simply not smart enough to understand the mechanics of a video game then maybe this is a good indication that they shouldn’t be playing that particular video game, or simply need to actually sit down and learn how to play it for extended periods of time.
Authors don’t write their books so people who can’t read can understand them. They write their books for people who like to read.

I didnt say you should know everything about the game. However you should know everything your thats possible to cram into the interface.

I think I better give you an example. The wow hunters have a skill called aimed shot that did the most damage out of your skills in the last expansion, but it interrupted your autoshot so if you really wanted something to die, you didnt actually use that skill at all. That if anything is a true newbie trap. The game hides information from you so only if you use 3rd party mods to compare how much damage you do with diffrent rotations, you have no reason to doubt the reflex to use the skill doing the biggest damage when you want something to die. Then you might notice how you are doing a lot less damage with autoshot and notice that you are losing an autoshot if you use the skill. If I remember correctly there was no reason whatsoever to use the skill for anything back then.

Depth should come from using the right power at the right time, using the right options to counter your opponents and prevent them from doing the same, doing the right thing at the right time, teamwork, working for the right goals and so on. Not from having to go to the forums to check whats actually useful and whats just there to make newbies lifes harder.

I guess what I'm going for is that not all complexity brings depth. Eve online is notorious of this. There are like 100s of guns you could fit into your ship, but really they add very VERY little depth to the game since it doesnt really matter that much to how you use your ship if you have for example 425mm rails or tachys.

I can understand your point, however Demigod isn't an overly complex game, it's just deep. Understanding that Depth, such as how skills stack together and the effect armour has on damage, is something that players should discover for themselves, be it through online resources or through their own experimentation. Saying that a player should have all the depth of the game given to them in tool tips and information bubbles in game removes a lot of the fun of playing a game; discovery!

What you gave an example of is not a situation where the player understanding the depth was impossible for new players - they could/should have learned that using that abilitiy interupted their Auto-attack very quickly. This is merely a poor tool-tip that could have corrected by adding the words "Will interupt current attack" rather than a situation of a newbie trap. A newbie trap is what you explained above, 80 Demigods where 50 are shite and only 30 are worth playing.

Currently, all of the Demigods are viable and unique and offer something different from the rest of the pack - if they could add 80 unique and interesting Demigods that are completely viable and perfectly balanced for both Solo and Team play in all game sizes, then I would be all for it. The problem, however, is that the balance act to get that working is beyond complex and well outside the range of possibility without creating situational Demigods, which is what DotA resorted to leaving some Heroes useless outside of their intended situations. Just to give you an indication, it numbers around the 3,276,800,000 mark for possible team combinations for 80 Demigods in a 5v5 game. Could you balance all possible combinations to ensure every Demigod was playable with a realistic chance of success in all situations? I know I couldn't, and I'd rather GPG didn't try because then they will create newbie traps; 80 demigods, 30 of which work and 50 that are ignored.

We're arguing the same point but for different reasons; I don't want an unbalanced multiplayer game, and you don't want newbie traps which - is this situation - become one and same if looked at as I've detailed above.

Well close. We both agree that having lots of demigods is bad for the game for balance reasons. The reason why I've been talking about the newbies is that it doesnt really matter for the veterans - they know which are crappy and which work so they just have less choices then there are dgs.

I've been trying to suggest getting the powers more varied and adding stuff that makes you choose how to play. Beyond point or cash usage. For example the rook is imo the most fragile of the DGs and therefore you have to take the tower spamming route because you can retreat into the towers and heal. I would love to for example have a second point line that gave durability and some ability to kill the enemy speed. You couldnt take the towers with it. That way you could use the towers or you could go for a more mobile style. It is still the same DG, but you are just playing it a bit diffrently.

I also think there should be stuff like los use for the maps to have more variety. Now granted I know nothing of DotA so you might be right that it plays the same every time, but IMO DG does too. For example as the tower spamming rook on caracal (or whatever the 3vs3 map beginning with c is..) I know that I'm gonna go for the hp flag and make a forest of towers. If I'm not really challenged, I'm gonna start leaning on their towers. I know that if I get a good forest running, the only DG I'm afraid of is the frost TB. Now naturally I'll still get killed a lot if there is a good anything there, but considering around equal skill.

I get the impression from my time with Demigod that each Demigod was intended to have roughly two 'play styles'. For example, The Rook can either maximise his Melee DPS or focus on Forests. Within those play styles exist several variations thanks to the items, for example stacking +speed on Rook while using his talents to pump DPS through Hammer and Attributes creates an Unstoppable Force - very quickly able to over power a lane. Stacking HP items and Mana regen while using his talents to create Forests and provide surviveability creates an Unmoveable Object - he progresses slowly, but is hard to move past. Using talents to provide additional play styles on top of what we have is fine, as long as it's in line with his purpose. Giving Rook a speed boost ability sits outside of what it means to play Rook. Providing pollar opposites within a single character could work, however I wouldn't want to see it within our current Demigods - adding a new one with this mindset from the beginning would yeild better results, at least in my opinion. Imagine a Demigod who's "neutral" at level one - nothing terribly special one way or the other however each ability line opens a play style. One for Melee DPS, one for Ranged DPS, one for healing, one for a debuff aura, etc. I think with a character created for this kind of purpose - a Jack of all trades if you will - would allow the Devs to balance better rather than trying to add this kind of functionality into the already balanced Demigods.

Well, at first glance i tought, its hard to learn. The diffrent characters.

 

But its not hard, you just have to decide if you want kill dgs or help your team.

 

If you want to kill: Choose skills which slows/ stuns enemies. And skills which deal high damage in a few secs.

 

If you want to help your team. Choose the other skills oO

 

And on items: Use healing potions, maybe teleports and if you want to kill dgs choose dmg dealer /increaser.

Not really hard though

Well if you take a look I won a quit few games, even as a total newbie to dota/ demigod. And iam trying other strategies as this. But they fail oO

I disagree. Well ok I cant say what they INTENDED to do, but imo there arent really several playstyles for DGs. Yeah you can finetune them, but they still play largely the same. I havent been able to get the Rook to do anything smart if he isnt hiding in his forest and I havent seen anyone else to do anything smart with it either. He's just too squishy to not have the ability to grow hp pots. I agree that giving Rook a speed boost would just be wrong. However if you take away the pushing, he needs to be able to get kills. To get kills and prevent someone from just harassing you endlessly, you need some way to either prevent the enemy running away or be fast enough to run after him. Now speed is stupid for the Rook and I dont see him as a cc char (and I'd really prefer that there would be as few "hard" cc options like stun that just plain prevent you from doing things as possible) so that leaves preventing the enemy moving away which I suggested above.

Btw in case I havent already preached how I think cc should be done: Cc should be something that restricts the enemy choices or punishes making certain ones. Regulus has the best ones atm imo: Mines can easily be thrown where you dont want the enemy to go (managed to get someone so paranoid about them one game that he never chased me anywhere ) and you can still use powers while under the mark, but you (and your friends) will just take damage and get slowed if you do so. The marks damage should go up and the duration down tho...

Could be fun, but the effects should be easily visible and intuitive. That way you could counter people with him, but they would see what you are using. I think that having ALL play styles would spread him too thin tho. Could have for example a toggle system with the first ability being a general damage ability and the button four toggle would switch between debuff/cc and buff/heal powers for the 2 and 3 buttons. Then you could have passive boosts to his damage so that you could also go with that and just get the debuff/cc or buff/heal options as support for damage dealing. That way he could go with say pushing (healing and damage with perhaps some buffs) or support (buffs, healing and some debuffs/cc) or assassin (damage and cc with some debuffs and buffs for support) depending on who he is playing with. Would definately want to try him out..