Charles,

    I know that its gets opeople fired up when they think of their tax money going to things they dont like, but unless you propose we go back to living in a loose confederacy based on the Articles of Confederation, that is not giong to happen. I happen to be morallty opposed to war, I cannot see how you can be a Christian and support military activity that is not stricly defense (as in someone is invading Florida kind of defense). The God of the New Testament certainly favors peace over violence. So I can say the same thing about war money that you and Lulapilgrim can for abortions, doesn't mean it's going to happen. That is the burden of a federal stystem. I suppose we could all designate funds on our tax return, but that would just make the IRS bigger, which would piss everyone off.

It is amazing you think that I insult you when I ask you questions. Consider this the last time we have a conversation. This is not the first time you have said this.

JD, agreed, great article!

The cruel experimentation on human embyors is a ghoulish "science" where babies aren't looked at as gifts from Heaven made in God's Image and Likeness but are degraded into being viewed and used as "products" in a biotech industry.

There are only so many concerned people in the pro-life movement to go around to protest. And beyond that, do you know how many riduculous anti-free speech and association laws and restrictions there are (so called buffer zones) that prohibit protesting outside abortuaries?

And, it's my understanding that fertility clinics don't throw the embryos out, they sell them for experimentation to those in the horrific world of eugenics.

JDKEEPSMILING  POSTS

Are you aware that every day here in America 4,000 innocent unborn babies are slaughtered in the womb in the abortuaries of Planned Parenthood? 6,000 on a busy Saturday? If we were talking about any other class of people and the violent act of murder being perpetrated against them daily, would the public be just as happy about their tax money going towards that?

Would Americans approve of the continued murder if they were assured that the government was not paying for them? Of course not! It disgusts me.

can you show me what you're talking about in particular to show your justification for no war? 

When you think about it warefare has figured prominently in all of human history. And true we have expended enormous amounts of money and bloodshed in war. Even so, there is no equating war with abortion. Some wars are justifiable, while the killing of an innocent baby is the womb is never justifiable.

KFC, I cannot beleive that you ever have to ask me that.....honestly? Let's just say, to superceed anything else, that we follow the greatest commandment as laid out in three of the gospels. I know you are going to ask me for Chap. Verse, so here it is: Matthew 22:24-40, Mark 12:28-34 and Luke 10:25-28. The basic just is this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind, and your neghbor as yourself. How you could get anyhting but a desire for peace and love out of that I have NO idea. Just in case you want a defintion of neighbor, Jesus convienently gives us one in Luke, right after the verse cited. We get the story of the man and the robber. A Samaratian comes by and helps out a man who he had no business helping, since Levites and Samaratans were basically sworn eneimes. So the parable that Jesus uses to back up his greatest commandment specifically talks about sworn enemies helping each other out.

My God is a God of peace and forgivness of sinners who truely want to repent. If your God endorses war, then he is not my God, and is not the God of the New Testament. If your God endorses war, then I humbly ask you change your name on this forum, becasue you are clearly not a follow of Christ.

JDKEEPSMILING POSTS:

JDKEEPSMILING POSTS:

With all due respect, you are missing the mark.

As far as God endorsing war, let's start from the OT context from which the Ten Commandments were given to Moses  specifically, "Thou shalt not kill".  Now, Thou shalt not kill in context with the other commandments God gave can only mean Thou shalt not kill (unjustly as in murder) rather than not kill at all.

This is evident becasue at the very time God gave the commandment He also commanded Moses to put to death any Isrealite who even touched the base of the mountain Ex. 19:12. And God does not contradict Himself.

The Holy Bible never declares war intrinsically immoral. There are loads of passages where God approves war...Ex. 17:11; Num. 21:3; Deut. 7:1, Judith 3:1-4 and 1Kings 15:2. God commands war in Judith 4:6-7. God works miracles to ensure victory for His chosen people in Gen. 14:19; Jos. 10:11-14; Jud. 4:15; and 2Mach. 10:29. Furthermore the God of armies Is. 3:1-7; Osee 11:5; Amos 5:14. sends war as a chastisement for men's sins Lev. 26:24; Deut. 28:40; Jos.17:13; Jer. 5:14.

Chronicles doesn't condemn war but speaks of David's punishment for the murder of Urais. 2Kings 11:17.

Yes, for sure our Lord's chief commandment was the love of God and love of neighbor for God's sake. And if the world were faithful to that war would be impossible. While recognizing that war is one of the greatest of evils that can confront a nation, the Catholic Church as well as the Chruch Fathers have always held that a just war is licit and moral.

In the New Testament, St. Luke 3:14, St.John the Baptist gives good advice to the soldiers of his day and our Lord Jesus Christ praises highly the faith of the Centurian St.Matt. 8:10, but neither asks the soldier to abandon his calling as immoral.    

Lulapilgrim,

  Your quotations form the OT do bear relveance, but the reason we are Christians is becasue of the NT, without Christ we would be Jewish. So I would give the NT a little more creedance in this matter. Especially becasue Christ himself said this words on multiple occasions.  I believe that there are justified wars, but they are few and far between. I would consider them to be mostly defensive in nature, as I would condier World War 2. I know that the Bush Doctrine clearly favors premtive engagement, but I do not consider that a valid perspective. It always boils down to minute and perspective on all this stuff. I was just upset becuase obviouly KFC considers himself an avid Christian and his post was basically an acusation that I was flat out wrong. As far as your response about the soldiers, as is the case now, soldiers are cogs in the poltical machine. They can be called to be soldiers and have thier commanders do immoral things with them. Never blame a soldier for the mistake of a general.

Man are we off topic!

JDKeepsmiling,

Your points are well taken.

This is especially interesting and of your first sentence I think even more true now that Obama is commander in chief. Once political correctness or politics invade the military, it's all over as far as a strong defense of our country and freedoms is concerned.  

BTW, I think it was Tertullian and Origen who objected to Christians serving in the pagan armies because of the danger of apostasy. At any moment, the Christian soldier might receive a command which required an act of idolatry.

Lula,

   If you think politics are not already in the military, then you are a bit niave. Lot at the way that the homesexual issue was inserted into the military during the Clinton years. Seems to me thhe military was getting along fine by just letting people be people. I actually have the dilema you talked about at the end of your last post. I yearn to serve this country, but know that I could be asked to do things I would consider immoral and sinful. I almost went in the Nat. Guard figuring at least that is a defensive and home guard force...boy was I wrong on that one. I think we need to start a new thread on the interplay of Christain thought and War/Peacemaking.

My God is the same; that is, a God of peace and forgiveness.   My God in the OT is the same God in the NT.  He doesn't change.  You gave me scriptures that speak to us as individuals.  But corporately there is time for war and we are exhorted to support our government during those times as long as it is a just war.  That's what all the conversation was about during the Iraq invastion.  The question was "is this considered a just war?" 

It's not about God endorsing war but war is necessary because we live in a broken, sinful dark world.  Have you ever read Romans 13:1-8 or 1 Peter 2:13-14?  In this passage he speaks about the governing authorities who have the right, under God, to bear the sword.  War is necessary to stop the forces of evil.   In chap 12 Paul wrote "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."  But there are times when it is not possible corporately to do so and war has to be made to subdue evil. 

It is God's intent that human life in the context of community be a life in harmony and peace and order.  Since life in our community becomes chaotic and anarchistic without the presence of regulatory laws enforced by authorities, the presence of these laws are part of God's overall intent for human existence. 

Government authorities are intended to be guardians of the commandments (such as do not kill, do not steal) which make community life possible.  If certain commands are violated it leads to the destruction and fragmentation of community.   Since God's law "you shall love your neighbor as yourself", the loving of one's fellow human beings-not doing any wrong to them-is the fulfilling of the law.  It is the responsibility for both the protection and the enforcing of this law which is given to human authorities by God's design. 

So war is a necessary evil in an evil society.  We have no choice at times to go to war.  Our call, as Christians is to be there for others in love.  Sometimes that calls for war and is meant for protection of our communities.  For instance during WWII we went to war because we had no choice.  In order to protect and defend war was necessary after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.   Evil has a way of spreading unchecked.  If we do nothing evil will prevail and then what? 

Peter said "live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil."  2 Peter 2:16

I just wanted to add. 

These scriptures you cite are about loving God and loving our neighbor. Very important but they have nothing to do with the context of war.  Again, I want to stress that loving our neighbor may mean we need to take up the sword in order to protect and defend our neighbor.  Doing nothing does not manifest into love.  When you love someone you'd do anything, even risk your own life to make sure they stay protected....even staring death in the face. 

Christ understood that as an individual.  He went to the cross because he loved us.  It was a very violent, bloody and abhorrant way to die but if that's what it took he would gladly do so to make sure we had the opportunity to live. 

Christ also said "there is no greater love than this, that one would die for another." 

It's the assumption that no scientific progress can possibly be made without raiding my wallet that troubles me.  Where is it written that scientific progress is now entirely dependent of federal tax dollars?  If something is so promising, drop the barriers to private research (a whole 'nother discussion) and those risk-takers will step up.

Oh, I know it is, I should have been more clear in my wording.

You might be interested to read Terpfan's blog entitled, Tell me what you think about Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Yes, and the tool employed is destroying lives.

In Germany it's illegal. In the US, the right-wing extremist Bush stopped federal funding for that Germany considers a crime.

Go figure.

And now it turns out that stem cells can be gotten from other sources and don't have to be taken from embryos that die in the process.

To me it looks like George Bush took the middle way between allowing and not allowing it and was condemned for it anyway.