Brava!

It depends on what you choose to read out of it..  many choose to follow any reason to hate others, and to distort whats being read. I have yet to ever hear "everyone else is crap,or doomed,etc. much less kill non believers, at any time in my life.

 

 

My MOM *rest her soul* Ran Her churches Home bound ministry, as well as the soup Kitchens. Even dieing of cancer she still did her rounds and Delved out meals inbetween her chemo sessions for months, often barely able to walk her self... Why? She loved people and she believed even tho she was dieing, that there were people out there who were worse off than she was, and needed help. She handed out no literature and asked nothing in return what she got back was immeasurable. When she finally passed she was given a 3 day ceremony reserved for Bishops etc. during that time the chruch was constantly filled with those who she helped in some way shape or form. The love they had for her was not any thing one could buy..

She passed owning a 15 yo car and living in a small trailer. There was no money to be had.. No power.. no glory.. just a simple woman trying to make a difference, and in Her own words " being the best Catholic I can be." Her Beliefs drove her to go above and beyond simple handing out a check to some charity.... not greed, nor a Desire for power. The only people that ever disliked her were the very type of poeple you all seem to call "Religious". I call them Fake..

 

As I have said before Only focusing on the downsides of any thing will paint it in a bad light.. I choose to see the good that comes from things.

Growing up with MOM taught me to see the good in all and know the bad side is there But not to focus on it. " You will find what you look for. If you only look for the Bad in things you will surely not be disapointed" But if instead you look for the good, you will find your own inner peace"

 

I do find it amazing that instead of blaming those responsible for atrocities, People still wish to blame their excuses for comitting the crimes. So if folks start killing people in the name of skinning, then skinning is to blame? No it will be just some other lame excuse for bad people to act badly.

Comon people the first thing in an enlightened society is placing blame where it really goes. Until we as a society take responsibility for our actions instead of placing it on some lame excuse * the bible made me do it* we will be doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

If there was no religion,I guarantee there would stil be death,war,hate,etc as those who wish to kill and hate will still do so under some other EXCUSE.

 

If one is only doing the charity work for gods recognition, then they have missed the whole point of Giving, it comes from the heart not greed. I was taught that in Sunday school. A pure heart does not give in hopes of retribution, but gives for the sake of giving...

 

Indeed!

I just said a prayer for this wonderful person's soul, just after the prayer for my late wife.

Words of wisdom. Very much like: "If you demand perfection of yourself, you will be  frustrated. If you demand it of others, you will be disappointed."

Just do the best you can, with what you have.. never give to get.. give because you want to make others happy.

Time to see the glass half full guys, what's the point of worrying about everything, life will pass you by, and I know there has to be some awesome stuff going on out there that we never hear about, focus on that, don't become pre-occupied with the doom & gloom in the world.

 

Doc & HG, very nice, positive words 

That's because you have the luxury of living in a free country where independence supercedes any hand of "the church,"  and you haven't done enough reading about church history to understand that what you are practicing now is Americanized Christianity--a/k/a basterized and/or watered down version of what the true movement was all about.  

Example: But of the cities of these peoples, that Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth; but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Jehovah thy God hath commanded thee.

Doesn't get any plainer than that.  God, in Deuteronomy, commanded his faithful to "utterly destroy" whole tribes of people.  If you read the rest of the story, He elaborates punishments for not carrying out the utter destruction of them.  

If you think this verse and the others in the Old Testament that command utter destruction of people, stoning of disobedient children, killing of unfaithful wives,  etc., are verses that "shouldn't be read" then why did the church fathers keep those verses in their transcripts?  They cut out a whole bunch of things that had absolutely nothing to do with executing people that didn't toe the line -- why leave these bloody, hateful verses in?  Why doesn't the Pope declare them null and void?  

The Bible isn't the only bloody Holy book.  The Koran is pretty big on describing the glorious destruction of the nonbelievers, if you take the time to read it--not to mention the extreme sexism and dehuminizing commandments that faith has against women.  If reading these divine works the way they were written is "wrong" -  then why does the supreme deity even allow those works to exist?  Why would a supreme deity even allow the opportunity for one of His/It's creation to misinterpret "The Word" and cause pain and destruction by allowing ambiguous texts to survive persecutions?

Untold amounts of recorded words were utterly destroyed at the ancient library Alexandria (destroyed a few times, once as ordered by Christian Emperor Theodosius I in 391 A.D. because of the library's "pagan" books, and the last time in 642 A.D. at the hands of the Muslims).  We can only guess at the cultural and academic advances we'd have had those books survived (would be nice to know how the pyramids were created).  The entire Olmec/Toltic/Mayan/Aztec academic works were utterly destroyed by priests and conquistators because "they were pagan" and we can only guess at what we could have learned had their records survived...so if this deity is so supreme, and so loves His creation as the holy books depict, why allow verses that can easily be misread and used to hurt others, to be preserved, when obviously lesser works that weren't able to be  misconstrued as an order to attack were utterly destroyed by people who belonged to the church and were carrying out the church's orders?

 

I'm positive your mother was a wonderful woman, and the world is a crueler place because she is no longer in it....but she had the entire wealth of the Catholic Church behind her!  Your mother may have run her particular churches ministry, but the money to run that ministry came from the coffers of the Catholic Church; there were priests, bishops, cardinals and at the top, the Pope himself, that controlled her ministry.

And choosing to only seeing things in good light removes any hope of correcting the downsides.

Interesting little research study you should read about that took place at Santa Clara University:  http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11283475?source=most_emailed

The study, using paid volunteers from the South Bay, is similar to the famous 1974 "obedience study'' by the late Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. In the wake of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann's trial, Milgram was troubled by the willingness of people to obey authorities — even if it conflicted with their own conscience...

"The conclusion is not: 'Gosh isn't this a horrible commentary on human nature,' or 'these people were so sadistic,'' said Burger.
"It shows the opposite — that there are situational forces that have a much greater impact on our behavior than most people recognize,'' he said.


It's not the people wishing to blame their excuses, EH...it's the dynamic.  As an atheist, it was only a hop, skip and a jump for me to become simultaneously, a naturalist.  I believe that it's human nature for people to behave in certain ways, and I don't believe in the concept of free will the way most people define it--I believe that behavior is CAUSED, that the cause of a person's behavior is determined by their chemistry, their environment, and their history.  If their history tells them that there's a god that demands they exterminate an entire race of people, then they will not see reason, and they won't know that they're behaving in an evil way, because they're TRUTH is that their god determines what is evil and what is good and if their god tells them extermination is good, then to not exterminate, is evil.

OH, Girl, you sure can tell YOU'RE not from the USA!  

(Truth be told, I really don't belong here, either...I keep hoping someday Johnny Depp's island will open it's borders to immigrants, but so far, no luck.    )

LOL!!!

But yeah, people usually have ulterior motives and give to get something in return, it kinda goes against the entire reason for giving in the first place, which is an act of selflessness, not selfishness

Sticking to the thread or subject line and following other realms...

1. Every time you pull up to a gas station and by gas - you are funding some kind of terror. Being that most of the oil sold here in the US and EU is from the middle east.

2. Mainly because of their religion and/or decent. Being that most of the targets where directed at said Jews and Indian people that where not of the sect which except Westerners as being friends and countrymen as such. Meaning people of the US and EU who are considered the enemy.

3. Those people over there Pakistan have been fighting over Kashmir and basically India for years and years now. The true reason because of all this has been nothing more than religion in both countries. Plus the fact that religion is not truely now part of that war being that the terrorist want it to be this way again by doing such acts to bring the countries into subjection of the religion and a war they want with said religion. Thus you have them trying to instill fear in the world today and that of it's enemy. To put it lightly...

Fact being they only plan to do just that scare others by killing the few as they can and getting their message heard to those that will except it as fear of their ideas for this religion.

We here in the US do not have this fear! we live in structured enviroments which protect and put us at ease. But we all figure things together to see what we can do to each other because we see others as just that - others - not the same as we are. People place barriers before each other being religious or discriminatory. Thus we are not as one and can see each other as one. But as in these other countries they try so hard to be as one - we do not.

Kind of like the ole saying Together we stand! Divided we fall.. So is the idea of terror. To divide us and bring us to what is their idea of whatever it is that they want of us. Being in most cases "death". But in others it would be to be part of their religion as such.

What we really need is to find our true self and others as our self. With that in mind to finding this we see each other as ourself... this is hard for everyone of us is not the same. But if we can not see ourself how can we see others also? Kind of mixed up eh?

Making it simple back in the older days of liberty and justice for all. We as a country placed our country in the hands of God. Saying One nation under God and such.

But we have taken that out now and we are looking for a replacement. Maybe..?

Till we find ourself and/or our country again... we being divided by fear and selfishness. Fearing even each other and who cares as such we are beginning to become of this nation still under God in which we Trust! As it says on every bill we have in our wallets or banks.

So my point is nothing here at all except that terror is just what it is at that Terror The terror we make it to be as what we fear and that fear of each other for whatever may be our reasons! Not just our true enemies but that of our fellow Americans!

Some how to win we must unite and overcome this fear by being one again. Stop worrying about who has what religion and/or looks funny and such. But that we are all the same and still live in the same place we did 222 years ago. Just as the people that founded this great nation did back then. Today and tomorrow is the true story to be told and I hope to see it as a free American unafraid of some terror no matter what that may be. At ease with the world and my fellow Americans as they are truely.

 

 

 

 

true, but the way you put it you made all those within church or those doing deeds for the church sound like they are only doing so for some sort of gain, or power. Neither of which my mom got or wanted..

 

Now you must realize that the Bible was not written by god. Even if you believed in him, you must realize it was written by the hand of man, and such will be tainted by the very mind set of the one's writing it. it also comes to mind that over the thousand's of years like History books, it has been reshaped to fit the Ideals of those in charge during subesquent rewritings. * current history books omit or alter things I was taught in school.*  So to Hold the book in the fullest sence as the *True word* is silly at best.  not to mention Deuteronomy was not of the orginal writings but after deemed not to be written by moses, to be claimed that "the High Priest Hilkiah finds an ancient lost scroll in the Temple and takes it to king Josiah; what Josiah reads there causes him to embark on a program of religious reform, suppressing the worship of all other gods".  thus not of Jesus's teachings but some scroll some one found and claimed to be the next book of the bible. but in reading the works and teachings of jesus, this scroll does not fit. It would look as more of a king or other trying to write religion to fit his agenda and use it as an excuse to wage war on others as well impress his morailty on those he subdues, all in the name of god.

As well as doing such would violate the commandment * thou shall not kill*. So I find it hard to believe this scroll Was coined by the almighty who sent his son to preach love, humility,forgiveness, etc..

I see the bible as more of a guideline to live by, i read the good works and the wisdom behind it, while realizing the hatred and unjust entries could be nothing more than historians/ Kings etc, trying to use it for their own purposes. As we all know It has been added to and edited, by those in power.

If people chose to blindly follow what leaders told them God said, as throught much of time the masses were not able to read to verify, and willingly break a commandment. Then they are as guilty as those who chose to send them off. Using the Excuse " I was ordered to do it" Is still just an excuse.

You must concede that religion also helped shape morality even in todays most basic laws some of the 10 commandments still hold.

thou shall not kill. Murder is against the law.

Thou shall not commit adultery. Adultery is still one of the top reasons for Legal divorce and often used to win a divorce against ones spouce.

Thou shall not steal. Still illegal last i remembered..

Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. perjury is still punishable in a court of law.

The seven deadly sins helped shape the face of morality even more.

Most morality comes from some sort of spiritual and or religious teachings. So for some to say Religion and spiritual enlightenment only brings hatred and death is IMO silly.

Also, While I choose to focus on the good in things and go with the betterment of Human kind, I do not turn a blind eye to those who would use any excuse, "even religion" to subdue me or others. I realize there has been tons of Atrocities in the name of religion, but I do not believe *God came down and told them to* Most of what ive read can be chalked up to Humans changing religion to fit thier wants.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right on the money

The Bible is like the chinese whispers game, by the time you get to present day [last person] it's an entirely different product.

So much has been omitted, like the Quabala/Tree of Life, now frowned upon as it's Occult related [I studied the Occult for many years.. no nothing evil, it's not what it's about] yet it was in the Bible at one point, and not as anything satanic, or evil... but it makes one wonder.. What else has been taken out..?

I'd love to see the original Hebrew text, before mankind doctored it to suit his own beliefs, or rather, the beliefs he wanted to push onto others... it would be like comparing chalk & cheese.

 

I said to follow the money.  I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear on that.

There are countries in this world where if you said that publically, you wouldn't  live to see daylight.



Since Josiah was born long before Jesus was, you can't say he wasn't following the teachings of Jesus, because the teachings of Jesus didn't exist during Josiah's time period.  However, Jesus claimed that he came not to change the law, but to fulfill it, so therefore Jesus's teachings would be in line with King Josiah's reforms.

This is all hypothetical, of course, spoken from a perspective of a biblical studies.  Taken from a purely historical perspective, in light of the fact that ostensibly it was the responsibility of The Church (Roman Catholic) to keep the law and the scriptures, and dictate to the people the traditions of faith, if anything is in the Bible that shouldn't be there, then the very foundation of the Christian faith is faulty and none of it is to be trusted, and none of it can be relied upon as "truth."  Martin Luther was brave enough to rock the world by saying the Pope was not the mouthpiece of God, but he did claim that the Bible was infallible. By what you're saying, all of it is fallible--just what CAN you trust in, if the very basis for everything you hold as truth you also hold as based on dubious foundations?




The commandment ISN'T "thou shall not kill" - in the Hebrew, it's "thou shall not commit murder."  When carrying out the will of God to utterly destroy pagan civilizations to prevent "the truth" from being perverted, one is not committing murder; one is executing the will of God.  If you read the book all the way to the end, you see that Jesus comes back and does a little cleaning up of His own, sending people like myself to everlasting torment, in a place of torture God created to inflict pain on beings He created for all eternity with no hope of release, so Deuteronomy isn't really all that contrary to Jesus's teachings afterall.  As for that love, humility, and forgiveness--in the end, all deals are off.

No, I'm not going to give you that.  "Thou shalt not kill" (and thou shalt not steal, covet...that last six), were all just plagiarism of the code of Hammurabi, which predated Moses by about 500 years. (There were also moral codes from ancient China which pre-date Moses, instructing that people refrain from committing murder and stealing).  There is nothing original about the 10 commandments (except those first four about how you're suppose to behave towards God), I will NOT concede that religion shaped morality.  I think morality exists outside of religion.  One does not need a deity or a particular sect or religion to have morality.  Kindness and respect are natural laws, like gravity, in that if one violates them, one ends up hurting oneself in the long run.  Murdering someone, means you're going to inflame the wrath of the family of the murder victim, and they're going to come after you--just a natural law!  Steal from someone, and your going to inflame that person's wrath, and they're going to come after you!  These are all just various forms of the golden rule, which predates Moses, too!  (Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, ancient Etyptian religions, paganism...they ALL contain the law of reciprocity--do unto others as you would have them do unto you.).

As for the seven deadly sins...those are pretty much in the eye of the beholder.  We've made an empire banking on the deadly sins.  Apply enough of Pavlov's science to the deadly sins and you have a well oiled machine, a living thing that performs out of compulsivity!  (It's how I trained my dog!).

I don't think you read the article I posted about the study out of Santa Clara University -- it says people obey authority, even to the point of carrying out orders of torture, not because they want to, but because their programmed to.  When I talked about the DYNAMIC of religion, what I meant was, the system of supreme authority being held over those who need to belong to that authority's movement (for whatever psychological reason), FORCES those followers to carry out the things ordered of them without seeing the evil it in.  There are very few humans who have the power to change their religion (and you can find THAT in the Bible, Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.")

I don't know if Moses got them first or not, I wasn't there but they are inspiring words/rules/laws to live by, if only they were followed by more, and followed more closely, and I'm not talking Religiously exactly, just as an ideal for living 

How true. Just goes to prove that if you give a stick to a barbarian he will hit you with it...

Oh how I wish we hadn't colonized the world. Brittania would still rule the waves and half the population on earth would still be running around in loin cloths.

As they say, no good deed goes unpunished

 My bad let me clairify, By Follow I meant taking what I have read of jesus works, and Deuteronomy, the two are not of a paralell scope. one teaches of the unltimate sacrifice, love, forgivness, while the other mostly deals with oppression and Murder. The latter does not fit with Jesus's teachings. So from that point I would Sumise someone either took the word of God and tainted it with his own bit's, or just wanted a way to make it look like the orders came from a higher source. *as the Pharoes did*.

 

An image of Hammurabi receiving the Code of Hammurabi from the Babylonian sun god (probably Shamash) is depicted on the frieze on the south wall of the U.S. Supreme Court building. So yes religion still had a hand in the creation of those Laws.

I did not say Christianity in perticular was the only religion responsible for morality. But religion played a part in its enforcement and distribution to the people. Even Hammurabi Conceded that a god was necessary to enforce and make sure morality stood untested by man. Why would he need to say a god made these laws, unless he Knew that human kind was not Moral by nature and would only follow the law if there were dire consequences for breaking them.

 

You believe humankind is naturally moral? what about the folks who run around killing folks for thier Trendy shoes or cell phones? wheres their morality? or the land lord who robbed my mom's house the night she passed away in the hospital? * his wife died of the same Cancer not more than 4 months earlier**  Yup he was real moral too. No morality is taught no inherited, nor natural.

 

Is it programing? or desenitization along with the subjects rationalizing of the task being performed, combine this with the absence of culpability and you have an anarchic society. Which conterdicts the idea Humans are Moral by nature and reinforces they are barbaric by design. The two next quoted sentences seem to reinforce my summary..

 

Not at all. Just because I defend your right to believe in something doesn't mean I have to agree with it as well.

If my belief that religion is a scam is insulting to someone...not much I can do about that...especially when I believe what I do. And I don't actively go around calling people nut jobs for believing in some religion or telling them they shouldn't believe in them...until they start to try and push it on me.

But when those beliefs impact my life in any way...honestly...I don't care who I insult...since they don't seem to care about how what they believe affects me. Thus...the "keep thy religion to thyself" comment. I also firmly believe that all religions should be taxed since they all seem to want interject these religious beliefs into government...which affects me and forces those beliefs into my life. So they should pay the admission price like everyone else.

I'd venture to say that "people" and not religion based charities do more to help soup kitchens than any religion based group. I've heard from numerous people I know how they asked a church for help and were turned down.

And...there really is no "true form" of religion...since you can take people of the same religion...ask a question and get conflicting responses. Also...no one follows any religion to a T...they take bits a pieces of a religion...the parts they agree with...and interject them into their lives and call it religion.

Now that we can agree on! I can see people and what they do. I can't see invisible men that have no impact in the world other than supposedly existing somewhere with all this perceived power but doing nothing to help.

The first part of ur reply is quite good but the last part indeed is true but not polite....

Some 250 years back.. India was one of the richest countries... We got independence just 60 years back and now my motherland is one of the quickest developing nations... True we are poor but it doesnt mean, we dont have the right to live...

Yes cast system is there but not so cruel as you said its improving now... and in no part of India we call anyone 'slaves' now ...only there is cast system and thats all...

Indian public does not know value of votes due to ignorance but once they know they will never cast votes to such men but the ratio you mentioned is just false....

Oh tell me the movements.. there are movements in every developing country where different cultures reside.. and jealous neighbours use this to part us but it wont happen to India again..

Recent 60% polls (record)  in Kashmir shows that they are Indian and they like development and not independence.... Also Kashmir is an integral part of India and to protect its citizens from intruders and terrorists, troops have to be there.....

 

 

 

By the sounds of it...I would venture to say your mother was the kind of person that would have done this even without religion since these kind of actions are not limited to people of religion.

But back to the original question...I feel there is more terrorism in the world now than there ever has been. And we know who we can thank for that...at least I do. Thanks for the crusade George! Oops...He really didn't mean to say crusade...it just kinda slipped out.

And the reasons for mumbai blasts were economic not religious.... They didn't attack religious places but they targeted well developed and public places... they didnt ask before killing "to which religion do you belong" ..

They wanted to arouse a fear and they did it partially.....

Quite possibly she would have, but without the church backing her and giving her the ability to help others she may have not been able to help as many as she did. I really posted it to show Religion does do good in the world when people use their faith for good. Stemming from comments that religion only causes suffering and death that was posted earlier.

It does have it's suny side.

However, what good does it to to feed a population just enough to stay alive so you can push your holy book on them? Their culture was supposed to die off years ago. Call it population control if you will (god's will?).

Fix the world's overpopulation and you fix every other problem ( well most).

 

Well...in all fairness HG...religion to some degree has its good points...in that in the beginning of a childs upbringing that has been exposed to religion it teaches how to be a good person...after that it gets kinda iffy. But the same can be said of good parenting.

Faith can be a wonderful thing, if you are lucky enough to find it, muster it up, and apply it.

 

About over-population, I've thought a lot about this, [ I once sponsored one of those children, well I'm assuming he really existed...] and donating $$ to send food packages to the poor, which may, or may not ever reach them, is just a bandaid, a temporary fix.. you see these ads with starving children, ok.. it's terrible, it's shocking, but the parents still muster the energy to, well... breed.. I think birth control would be a step in the right direction.

I don't mean to stop sending food or donations, but simply to address the over-population issue at the same time.

 

Learn to --->Cultivate, before you propogate

 

You assume Ive ever met any of those I have sent donations off to.. Muchless sent them a book or that I even follow only one book.. Contrary to popular belief not all religious people use kindness to pressure others in to thier religion. As I stated with my mom, she asked nothing, welcomed all, and handed out only love,food,and compassion. it was never about propogating the faith.

I do not and would never push my beliefs on others. As true faith must come from within.

I also respect the beliefs of others as they have the Right to believe as they wish.  I also would expect the same in return, those who do not believe what I believe should no more call me names nor insult my beliefs in general, just because my beliefs are not the same as their own.

I love the true meaning of freedom of religion, as any one can believe or choose not to believe whatever they wish. *as long as they dont force it on others*

The poor? As long as there are rich people there will be poor ones. Only when human kind has achieved total economical balance between the haves and have nots will poverty be fully abolished.

 

herman I applogize for  hijacking this thread, as it has nothing to do with religion. As you have stated the attacks etc are not of religious backing.

Your Mom sounds like a wonderful lady HG, there should be more out there like her, the world would be a better, and more honest place, where people do good because they want to, not because they expect anything in return.. and if their inspiration comes from the "Good Book", more power to them!

Goodness is catching!

thank you Tails. I agree people should do good deeds because it's the right thing to do. And if their faith has inspired them to become an active and positive force in the community around them, then cool.

Spread the love folks.

 

herman keep a chin up, you have friends here who care and hope things go well for you.