Lula posts:

Yes, Catholics believe that Christ is Personally, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity present in the Holy Eucharist which is placed in the Tabernacle. When Christ allowed St.Thomas to touch His wounds , St. Thomas said, "MY Lord and My God". The same Christ left Himself present in the Eucharist when He said, "This is My Body" and when Catholics come into His presence, they offer Him the tribute of deep reverence by genuflecting when they enter and leave the sanctuary and by kneeling to worship, offer Him praise and to pray to Him.

Oh com'on and you're not programmed?  Are you kidding me????  That's what Catechism is all about.  Didn't you know that?  I didn't have a protestant version of Catechism.  There's no such thing. 

You know as well as I do Lula.  I was born and baptized Catholic as was my husband.  So if anything I wouldn't say I've been programed in the Protestant tradition so much as "set free" from the Catholic traditions.  If anything I can see it much clearer by stepping out of the CC. 

anti-Catholic?  hmmmm that's what I am?  Just like you're anti-choice Lula? 

Anyhow.  I brought two young teens to a Baptist service once.  They were both raised in Eastern Orthodoxy which is similar to the CC.  There are some differences but basically they're pretty close.  Anyhow they have icons instead of statues in their churches in Bulgaria.   One girl whispered to the other "how can they pray?  They have no icons in this church." 

The other girl whispered back.  "They pray by faith." 

That's how we're supposed to pray.  By faith. 

I have an Eastern Orthodox friend in Egypt, and she has told me the same thing.  Russian Orthodoxy is saturated with icons (as a side note). 

KFC, I'm not sure what we are going to accomplish by accusing the Catholic church of idolatry?

I am a Messianic believing Jew.  During a Torah processional I bow before the Torah and with a book or Tzitzit touch the Torah and then bring it to my lips.  I am in no means worshiping the Torah but I do recognize this as the Word of G-D.

There are similar things in Christianity and other religions as well.  

I think it's probably a matter of degree.

KFC probably feels that Catholics exaggerate it a bit. She says she was Catholic once. She probably felt that the ritual stands between G-d and believers.

Bingo!

While reading through all these back and forth responses I am getting an education that cannot be bought, I thank you all very, very much for this gift.

All I'm doing AD is responding to Lula's posting above in #102 and #104. I didn't start this.   I'm just not giving her a free pass here. 

Even the Angels in scripture said to "get up" when one tried to bow before them.  Read how John tried to do that at the end of Revelation.  I believe the same with Daniel.  When someone tried to bow before Peter, he said "get up I'm just a man."  The only kneeling to worship should be in the presence of our Lord.  Not a Mary, Saint or Jesus Statue or icon for that matter. 

We shouldn't be bowing before any objects in any form of adulation or adoration.  Jesus taught us how to pray in Matthew Chap 6.  Maybe we should all read this tonight for a refresher. 

you're welcome MM.  Feel free to ask us questions if you need to, afterall it's your blog....heh!

If I may ask AD.  Where does this tradition come from? 

There is a general tendency to make God out of whatever makes you comfortable. As long as I am comfortable, says the common man, I will let Him be God.

KFC POSTS:

I sure do know what the Catechism is all about... teaching the one true deposit of faith of Christ...the same one that St. Paul received and kept. 2Tim 4:7. By reading and studying it, I'm undergoing a learning experience, hopefully growing every day more and more in knowledge of the faith.  

I know from reading the Church Fathers that the first Christians used images and icons (pictures). The Catacombs were full of Christian art that when the persecution ended found its way into the early Churches and thus arose the present day practice of honoring  Our Lord, His Mother and the Saints through having art, icons and images. What I'm saying is when Catholics kneel and pray, they aren't worshipping them. The real attitude is explained in the decrees of the Council of Trent, "The images of Christ and the Virgin Mother and of the other Saints, are to be had and kept, especially in Churches, and due honor and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them, ..or that anything is to be asked of them or that trust is to be reposed in images, as was done of old by Gentiles who placed their hope in idols, but becasue the honor which is shown them is referred to those whom the images represent...in such wise we adore Christ, and we venerate the Saints whose likeness they bear."

So, the statues, icons, (pictures) and images in Catholic Chruches, are given honor, not for what they are in themselves, but for what they represent.

You have "set free" from the fullness of Christian religious truth which is found only in the CC, the very one which Christ Himself established, even though St.Paul commands Christians to 'stand fast, and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." So from this passage, it appears that the living tradition of having art and images in the early Church are quite within Apostolic teaching. It teaches that traditions are to be "held" as a part of the Apostolic deposit of faith. You set yourself free of Apostolic traditions and picked up Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides, inventions of the 1500s by Fathers of Protestantism....who, unilke St. Paul, left the faith.....but whatever.

If I kiss a photo of my mom, am I honoring a piece of paper or is it a tribute of love and devotion offered to her? Catholics honor images, icons, and statues in the Church only in so far as they remind us of God, of Christ, Our Blessed Lady or of the Saints in Heaven.  Every Catholic Church in both the Eastern and Roman rites have a Crucifix on the altar becasue it stands for Christ and His sufferings of our behalf. I'm sure when these young girls went inside a Baptist Chruch the bare walls, bare table, and absence of a Crucifix was noticeable to them.

Your mistake, KFC, is that you have tried to judge interior dispositions from exterior conduct.   

KFC POSTS:

Ever heard of the saying, you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? Or Pres. reagan's saying, here we go again, confusing the legitimate bow or kneeling with the sin of idolatry. This is the bad fruit of your private interpretation of Scripture.

Note what I highlighted...and then re-read my post 102.....

In every Catholic Chruch, on the altar and near the Tabernacle where the Holy Eucharist is kept, there is a sanctuary lamp is perpetually lit indicating God's presence. When the priest utters the words of consecration, he finds himself in the immediate presence of Christ-in fact he's touching him physically in the Sacred Host. After elevating the Host, he genuflects or bows deeply in public adoration. The Holy Mass is the closest thing to being in Heaven on earth as Christ enters time.  

This is a story that appeared in the Wanderer newspaper Sept. 29, 2005.

"During the homily, the priest told an interesting story of Pope John Paul II's visit to the Baltimore area in 1995. The Pope was scheduled for a quick trip by the local seminary. But even though it was not scheduled, he wanted to go in and pray at the chapel. So a security team and the German Shepherd canine unit that was especially trained to find human beings-using their superior sense of smell (like the ones used after the Sept. 11 attack to find people in the rubble)---were sent to search for people in various rooms. They searched the halls and rooms and found no one, and then were sent into the chapel where the Pope intended to pray. They sniffed in all the aisles and then came to the Tabernacle which held the consecrated Hosts. The dogs sniffed pointed, indicating that they sensed a human being present in the Holy Tabernacle and would not leave until the handlers called them off. This was witnessed by over ten security people."

Of kneeling in Mass, Pope Benedict said, "The kneeling of Christians is not a form of inculturation into existing customs. It is quite the opposite, an expression of Christian culture, which transforms the existing culture through a new and deeper knowledge and experience of God. Kneeling does not come from any culture---it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God....The Christian liturgy (Holy Mass) is a cosmic liturgy precisely becasue it bends the knee before the Crufufied and exalted Lord. Here is the center of authentic culture--the culture of truth. The humble gesture by which we fall at the feet of the Lord inserts us into the true path of life of the cosmos."

God through Isaias 45:23, "To me every knee shall bend."

And in his letter to the Phillippians, St. Paul wrote, "At the name of Jesus, every knee will bend." And when St.Paul said goodbye to the Christians of Miletus he prayed with them kneeling Acts 20:36. By kneeling we emphasize our littleness and submission before God.

The humble leper who "came and knelt before Him", St.Matt. 8:2, and also high ranking men: "...behold a certain ruler came and knelt before Him, and said, Lord, my daughter is even now dead: but come lay thy hand upon her and she shall live." 9:18

Gospel of St.Luke 22:41-42, describing Jesus in the hour before His arrest, "And He was withdrawn away from them a stone's cast; and kneeling down He prayed. Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done."  So here we have been given a clear example of how to pray in the presence of God.

It's my understanding that the Protestant demonimations that kneel during church service are Episcopalians and Lutherans. 

Kneeling has a long history in Christianity. The ox and the ass were by legend the first to kneel before the Infant Jesus. St.Matt. 2:11 relates the Three Wise Men on finding the Child with His Mother in Bethlehem, "and falling down, they adored Him...." The Jews who became the first Christians weren't accustomed to kneeling during worship. They stood raising their hands in praise of the Risen Christ. It wasn't until the 800s when a sense of unworthiness and sinfulness led the people to adopt a more penitential posture by kneeling during Holy Mass. 

 I remember my mom keeping sure we knelt with our backs straight up and our backsides couldn't slouch and touch the seat. I in turn have taught the same to my children.

And how about the Christmas song that goes, Fall on your knees! Oh hear the angels voices.....

Very good!

Is it not always by choice that we follow commandments?

Dear Lula, While I agree with you in the main, just as Zen Buddhists do not worship Buddha or statuary of the Buddha, we do not see this as idol worship as Buddha was a man.  In this case, its like paying respect to a teacher.   But Catholics believe Jesus was God, so I see a crucifix as an image of God and the commandments, as you actually pointed out, forbid the making of images of a Deity, including God.  Why?  So we will not make an image in our mind of God.  Any such image has boundaries and limits, it can be desecrated, destroyed, and so on.  So, while a crucifix is not an idol within the church, it most certainly is a graven image and it is this that makes it a problem from the POV of the bible.

The fact that early church father, and later one's as well, cast graven images is only testimony to the fact that the Church was gathering converts from non-Jewish quarters. Jews would have seen this as a grossly blasphemous activity.

Be well

Context, Lula. Which culture actually worshipped statues?

Terry Pratchett in "Small Gods" has the Omnians use turtles because their last prophet, Brutha, was tortured on a turtle (by followers of the previous prophets and the corrupt Omnian Church).

I understand, I was merely cautioning you from going down this road.  Christianity (and ANY other religion) is riddled with it's own fallibleness. 

Not sure but I would imagine it is Rabbinical?

and not once are you seeing any of them kneeling before any graven image Lula.  Not once.   Every knee will bow?  Yes.  In front of Christ, not his likeness.  In fact we read in Revelation that the Anti-Christ will somehow have an image made up for the masses to worship him.  They are to bow to his image much like the pagans did in the first century.  If you didn't you were thrown to the Lions and killed. 

So if you're going to go after an example which would you go by? 

We don't have a bare table.  It usually has either a bible, candles or communion on it.  We don't have a Crucifix that's true.  But we do have an empty cross instead.  There's a reason for that.  It's to remind us that Jesus is NOT on that Cross anymore.  We don't bow to it.  We don't pray to it.  It's just on the wall as a symbol of the resurrection.  It seems as tho from what I remember being Catholic that Jesus was either depicted in a manager or on a cross.  We hardly ever (if ever) saw much of Jesus as the Conquering Messiah.   To the Protestants, the sign of the now empty cross is what Christianity is all about. 

again, there's nothing wrong with kneeling.  That's not the point.  As you said, it's an act of submission.  When my husband was ordained.  He knelt before the congregation as a token of his submitting to them as their leader.  The best type of leader is one who will lead by example.  His example was as a servant leader. 

Hey LW, what if he was stoned?

Would they all wear millstone around their necks?

hmmmm maybe that's why God looked ahead and decided Crosses were more appropriate? 

Afterall a millstone is quite heavy and would only weigh us down. 

Just like the sins of this world?

ohhhh.....quite profound!

KFC,  

Some of the Apostles and certainly the earlly Christians were forced to worship in the Catacombs which were adorned with many frescoes of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the Saints. These were/are not graven images. Can you honestly accuse these Christians of idolatry, when we know they died by the thousands in protest of it and wrote treatise after treatise condemning it?

Read God's First and Second Commandment which refer to images again and ask the Holy Spirit for some help in understanding it.

"Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven images of anything in the heaven above, or in the earth beneath." Thou shalt not bow down to them and worship them".  What this says to me is God forbids us to make images in order to adore or worship them.

Yet, in 25:18, God ordered the Jews to make images of angels. So, KFC, when the Jews made angels they were making images of the things in the heaven above, right? What? God didn't know what His own law was? There weren't to adore or worship them and Catholics get it and don't.

Are we violating God's law by making images of things on the earth beneath? How about the statue of Liberty, statues in town parks or squares, photos (images) of our loved ones? Of course not. We are in agreement that if we adore these we are in violation of the commandment and committing idolatry.  

So, here we see God's Commandment forbids idolatry which is the willful worship or adoration of idols or graven images, not the making or proper use of images which is what a statue is.

Yes, there are statues, icons or pictures, usually ornate art work of the Blessed Mother, the Saints, and a Crucifix in Catholic Churches.  And yes, Catholics kneel at prayer in front of these images. But if you conclude we are worshipping the statues or praying to them, then that is not the fault of the Catholics. It's your own fault in so far as you've judged us according to your own preconceived ideas.   

then why is all other Christian religions have a Cross with no Image of Christ on it? Just a cross with no graven Image to bow before?

lula posts:

MM POSTS:

I adamantly disagree that the Crucifix is a "graven image".

First, "all other Christian religions" is Protestantism and Protestantism is nothing other than a revolt from the Catholic Chruch. The only thing Protestants have in common is their rejection of Sacred Tradition, the 7 Sacraments, the Holy Mass and most, not all, of the Church's doctrines.    

To understand why Protestants reject having a Crucifix in their Churches, we must first understand the reason why Catholics do have the Crucifix on every Church altar.

The Catholic teaching on the Sacrifice of the Mass is spelled out by St. Paul's teaching to the Corinthians. Here v. 23, St.Paul is teaching the faith by handing down Sacred Tradition.

23 "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, 24 And giving thanks, broke, and said, "Take ye, and eat, This is My Body, which shall be delivered for you: do this for the commemoration of Me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after He had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in My Blood, this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of Me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until He come." 1Cor. 11:23-26,

V. 26 sums it up...St. Paul is saying the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass constantly commemorates the Sacrifice on the Cross, until the end of the world.  The Crucifix images the Passion and Death of Our Lord...and that's why Catholics have it.  Catholics  reverence  the Cross becasue Jesus Christ whom we adore died upon it for our eternal salvation.  He died for all so we might have salvation. The CC and Catholic life is about one thing....our eternal salvation which is only through Christ shedding His blood.

KFC commented that we should pray through faith and I agree. Of faith, St.Paul tells the Romans "..that we are being justified through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God had proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in His blood, to the showing of his justice for the remission of former sins."  

When I read, "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" and "through faith in His blood", I think immediately of Christ on the Cross, not an empty one. I also think of Almighty God because St.Paul teaches that God brings about the redemption of sinners in and through Christ whom He put forward as an expiation....which was made by Jesus' sacrifice of His life. The point is that what Jesus achieves by laying down His life is the work of God Himself. God took the first step without waiting for men to bring him the required expiatory offering. God Himself brings about expiation and thereby redemption from sins.  

The Church, through St.Peter and the Apostles, and then their appointed successors, has been teaching Christ's Birth, Death and Resurrection for 1500 years before Protestantism rejected and does not believe what all of Christendom believed. They aren't doing what St. Paul teaches...they can't....they reject the Sacrifice of the Mass, the doctrine of the Real Presence St.John 6,and  the separate, sacrificial priesthood in the order of Melchidesech.

Don't get me wrong....no doubt that many Protestants go to Jesus prayerfully. Catholics go directly to Jesus through prayer and prayerfully participating in the HOly Sacrifice of the Mass, the worship that Jesus taught and told us to do. It is a continuation, in an unbloody manner, of the bloody sacrifice Christ made on Mount Calvary. Catholics are more intimate and loving with Jesus through partaking of His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in Holy Communion. Our bodies become tabernacles of Jesus Christ, as well as temples of the Holy Ghost.

Hello All, I am back from my Refuge in the mountains. I see we are still at it.  What I do not understand is how Christians can possible not think that worshiping Jesus is not blasphemy against God. Nor can I undetstand how making a graven image of the man-god isn't creating an idol.  On the other hand, its not mine to understand. So, bow, genuflect, and cross yourselves all you want:  I leave it to the Holy One to determine what's what.  But then, my Holy One is not human in any sense and therefore has no emotions or a mind, for that matter.

Be well.