kenwas kenwas

We've been had again!

We've been had again!

Remember the bailout?

For those following the great $700B bailout plan, it would appear that we have been had again.  First, Paulson was going to buy "toxic assets from the banks.  That was changed to a plan to give loans to the banks with oversite and strings attached.  None of that happened.  What did happen was the government simply bought non-voting shares of stock in the banks and the banks are free to do with the cash whatever they wish.  There are no strings attached, not even a requirement to begin lending again.  Ergo, Fannie Mae will be using part of the funds to retain defense attorneys for the very executives that created the problem in the first place.  Not only are we giving them these funds without strings or oversite, we are now paying the defense fees of the executives.  It would appear that we have been had again.

39,162 views 94 replies
Reply #26 Top

Don't forget one very important thing in all of this.  Oversite committies are like inmates guarding themselves.  I vote for a nationwide strike where no one in the top 5% elite receives any services from anyone.  Don't sell them their Starbuck's in the morning, no clothing, no cars or gas, absolutely nothing.  They may as well get used to it, at the rate we are going, those that provide the services won't have places to live or cars to get to those jobs or food for their families.

We can all say OUR government and civilization can never collapse.  Well I'll bet that's the same sentiments the Aztec and dozens of other great historical cultures felt.  We could be third world in less than two years.

"A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within."  W. Durant

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Reply #27 Top

Don't forget one very important thing in all of this. Oversite committies are like inmates guarding themselves. I vote for a nationwide strike where no one in the top 5% elite receives any services from anyone. Don't sell them their Starbuck's in the morning, no clothing, no cars or gas, absolutely nothing. They may as well get used to it, at the rate we are going, those that provide the services won't have places to live or cars to get to those jobs or food for their families.

We can all say OUR government and civilization can never collapse. Well I'll bet that's the same sentiments the Aztec and dozens of other great historical cultures felt. We could be third world in less than two years.

"A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." W. Durant

 

And the surest path to that downfall is to fall for the game of class warfare!  You might consider that it is often the top 5% elite that create the services you wish to deny.  (including the site you are posting on! and including the new president elect!)

Reply #28 Top

Government Worker

Government Organization

Government Intelligence

Great Depression

WHOOPS! This isn't the Oxymoron thread? Sorry... :(O ;P

Reply #29 Top

Non voting shares are the last to get their money if they go tits up.  Did anyone really think the money would go to helping the masses.  Hehe.  My money is in the credit union.  How many of them do you hear about being in trouble?  None..

Reply #30 Top

Don't forget one very important thing in all of this. Oversite committies are like inmates guarding themselves. I vote for a nationwide strike where no one in the top 5% elite receives any services from anyone. Don't sell them their Starbuck's in the morning, no clothing, no cars or gas, absolutely nothing. They may as well get used to it, at the rate we are going, those that provide the services won't have places to live or cars to get to those jobs or food for their families.

 

This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this. The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; The fifth would pay $1: the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; The ninth $18. The tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59. That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20. "So dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being *paid* to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth Man with a of $52 instead of his earlier $59.

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They're $52 short!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

Reply #31 Top

Great stuff NT!  Best post of the thread.

Reply #32 Top

Good one NT. Only one problem: Nobody has the choice of not showing up at the table without relinquishing his citizenship and leaving the country. Taxes aren't "voluntary".

Reply #33 Top

Good one NT. Only one problem: Nobody has the choice of not showing up at the table without relinquishing his citizenship and leaving the country. Taxes aren't "voluntary".

 

Good point Doc, but what they can and have done is simply move the money/company off shore to a more favorable atmosphere.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Philly0381, reply 8

We've been had again!


And we will contunie to be had because we are all on the FAILBOAT! 

The least you could do..

Reply #35 Top

Starkers question for you , i see your rrom Australia, do you folks have similar problems down their with your politiicians that us up here in the US dont hear about?? is it the same everywhere you go i am wondering???

Yep, we have problem politicians here as well - lil Johhny Howard was one of them - and sometimes we get screwed as well, but nowhere near the scale you poor buggers in the US have been stung by this nasy, nasty bailout business.

It's funny you ask this, I just came from a thread where it was, for want of a better word, accused of being a divided nation under John Howard.  Hmmm, I'm not going back in there, but, for as unpopular as he was, Howard actually united the nation by virtue of his unpopularity, tha fact that the majority disliked him and were united in their opinions... the proof of the pudding being that Australia unanimously and unceremoniously dumped him, not just as PM but from Parliament entirely.

Reply #36 Top

So as another post in the forums stated, we can now get back to normal.  :O

Reply #37 Top

It's funny you ask this, I just came from a thread where it was, for want of a better word, accused of being a divided nation under John Howard. Hmmm, I'm not going back in there, but, for as unpopular as he was, Howard actually united the nation by virtue of his unpopularity, tha fact that the majority disliked him and were united in their opinions... the proof of the pudding being that Australia unanimously and unceremoniously dumped him, not just as PM but from Parliament entirely.

Then credit should go to Bush for doing exactly the same in agreement with your thinking on John Howard.  I do believe "accused" is a little strong my friend.  There is no animosity on my part at all.

By point was that the media have a way of polarising the issues tot he extremes on either side.  My kids all voted for Obama.  I did not.  Yet we are far from a divided pickering family.  I beleive this applies to the majority of Americans. People take the extreme positons in political threads and like it said before, I think it would be a mistake to think that all American spend all their time fighting over politics.  MOst I would imagine are simply glad the election is over and we can move on.

Reply #38 Top

Government Worker

Government Organization

Government Intelligence
There are great people in the government too.  Doing their best for you, me, and themselves.  The constant attacks against "them" vs "us" helps no one.  "them" should never be a target; only "specifically him" or "specifically her".

 

Reply #39 Top

Everything I've read in the news pertaining to the "bailout" has screamed "SCAM!".  When National City Bank was denied bailout funds but PNC was awarded funds for the purpose of buying National City, it didn't take much research to find that one of PNC's former committee was in charge of doling out the funds.  Though he's adamantly denied it, it appears to be another case of business leaders in politics awarding their friends. (read Cheney/Halliburtin, Palin/TransCanada, etc.) *just immediate ones that come to mind, not to pick on a certain party*

Reply #40 Top

And the surest path to that downfall is to fall for the game of class warfare! You might consider that it is often the top 5% elite that create the services you wish to deny. (including the site you are posting on! and including the new president elect!)

I'm sorry Kenwas but trickle down economy is bullshit.  I'm not calling for a revolution.  I would just like these people that don't have a clue what our lives are like to just experience it for a while. That's the view from my  "class".

Reply #41 Top

I'm sorry Kenwas but trickle down economy is bullshit. I'm not calling for a revolution. I would just like these people that don't have a clue what our lives are like to just experience it for a while. That's the view from my "class".

Who said anything about trickle down economics? I was simply taking a view against blaming everything on classes of people, in this case the top 5%.  There are good folks and bad folks at all levels if you insist on having a "class" structure.  Punishing "classes" of people is a very dangerous game.

Reply #42 Top

Punishing "classes" of people is a very dangerous game.

You're right that's why they are usually minorities.  The anti-gay laws still need a long way to go.  In any case, as I recall regarding our current political climate, I think the only thing that has been put forward is a rollback of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy hardly an example of "punishing".

And since we are discussing the bailout why are so many taxpayer dollars being handed over to businesses without some sort of action to provide mortgage workouts for homeowners?  Also, where is the call for improvements in regulations and enforcement that will prohibit banks from writing financial extortion provisions in loans.

We should all remember that what the banks have enjoyed is law enfocement and regulations strongly favoring lenders in collections.  The premise being banks will only be willing to lend if repayment is fairly certain.  In exchange for such legal favor, the banks should be prohibited from structuring loans where monthly mortgage payments can leap from $2300 per month to $5800 per month due to calculations of the underlying mortgage struture.  Flat monthly payments for the life of the mortgage should be mandatory.  Also, home equity loans based on inflated home values should be prohibited.  These sort of problems in mortgage lending practices must be addressed.

I also find that the characterization by Greenspan and others that the economic downturn is a 100 year economic tsunami that just happens as a result of the "business cylce" is part of the problem when it is in fact the direct result of bad legislation (the Commodities Modernization act) and bad business practices.

Reply #43 Top

In any case, as I recall regarding our current political climate, I think the only thing that has been put forward is a rollback of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy hardly an example of "punishing".

 I agree with you but I was responding to his post (#26) which called for withholding services from the rich as a "class" punishment  for being in the top 5% elite.

Reply #44 Top

I agree with you but I was responding to his post (#26) which called for withholding services from the rich as a "class" punishment for being in the top 5% elite.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.  Equal protection under the law has a long way to go and you're right withholding services from anyone as a targeted class is divisive.

Reply #45 Top

withholding services from anyone as a targeted class is divisive

It was meant to be divisive.  There are "classes"  whether you want there to be or not.  Do you think when someone like McCain who can't even remember how many houses he owns has one iota of what it's like to go to a grocery store and have to keep putting things back so you can stay under your $75.00 a week food budget.  All I was saying is I wish they knew what it is like for the majority of Americans and actually had some empathy.  And Ken, I'm not directing any anger at you, just venting frustration.

Reply #46 Top

There's a clean one honey.Honey and I checking the menu. Incognito of course.

 

 

Oh boy, I hope we get some of her leftovers! 

It would be funny if people didn't actually have to live this way.>:(

 

 

 

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Zubaz, reply 13
Government Worker

Government Organization

Government IntelligenceThere are great people in the government too.  Doing their best for you, me, and themselves.  The constant attacks against "them" vs "us" helps no one.  "them" should never be a target; only "specifically him" or "specifically her".

 

This was meant *sarcasticly* and as a *humor*. If you google the terms (oxymoron) you get lists of them and these appear on many.

Constant attacks on Gov't. workers, etc.? I think you have me confused with someone else. On the political side, my objections have been about individuals.

 

Reply #48 Top

Quoting kenwas, reply 16
I'm sorry Kenwas but trickle down economy is bullshit. I'm not calling for a revolution. I would just like these people that don't have a clue what our lives are like to just experience it for a while. That's the view from my "class".

Who said anything about trickle down economics? I was simply taking a view against blaming everything on classes of people, in this case the top 5%.  There are good folks and bad folks at all levels if you insist on having a "class" structure.  Punishing "classes" of people is a very dangerous game.

Well said, Ken.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting BigDogBigFeet, reply 19
I agree with you but I was responding to his post (#26) which called for withholding services from the rich as a "class" punishment for being in the top 5% elite.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.  Equal protection under the law has a long way to go and you're right withholding services from anyone as a targeted class is divisive.

Also well put.

Reply #50 Top

It was meant to be divisive. There are "classes" whether you want there to be or not. Do you think when someone like McCain who can't even remember how many houses he owns has one iota of what it's like to go to a grocery store and have to keep putting things back so you can stay under your $75.00 a week food budget. All I was saying is I wish they knew what it is like for the majority of Americans and actually had some empathy. And Ken, I'm not directing any anger at you, just venting frustration.

Not sure if you fully understand my meaning of equal protection under the law.  But any economic system which is treated as superior to constitutional guarantees is the problem.  That is Insurance Companies have rules the laws do not prohibit which enable them to deny coverage for prior conditions and raise rates for the self employed, etc all directed at ensuring the profitability of a corporation as superior to a persons health. 

Why do you think there is a large class of uninsured who do not have access to health care, the legal system permits it.  Is that equal protection under the law?  Why is it businesses exist which depend upon the disenfranchised for such extortive practices as payday loans and auto title loans made at ripoff rates?  The legal system allows it.  Throughout our system so called free markets are used to justify the creation of a large and growing group of improvished.

Furthermore excise fees, property taxes and other forms of governement revenue measures take a huge bite out of what little purchasing power the poor have.  A fifty dollar water bill is a nit to some people to others it a financial strain.

The US doesn't really have free markets.  It has a significant number of legalized monopolies and manipulation of the legal system by those forcing their way up while they force others down.