stevendedalus

Join Date 11/2003

Let The Temple Tumble

It's not the $700 billion that raises my hackles, but the distrust that it will only prop-up a house of cards. If it were up to me I would let the thieves of Wall Street fall. They don’t deserve a bailout of any kind. Frankly it would be a great catharsis for the country in witnessing the dynamic of comeuppance when the pharaohs of the great temple turned to dust. For too long the artificial systemic of money making money under the cloak of subprimes, derivatives, and other arcane, opaque gimmicks as opposed to the natural progression of capitalism to develop intellectual and concrete products for the common good. It is time to return to the Jimmy Stewarts of the economy to invest in making things that matter most, therein putting the country to work.

If the government declared a moratorium on foreclosures on small businesses and primary residences for a year while it collected its wits to target a trillion or so dollars in order to subsidize creative 21^st Century works. For starters, revitalizing the auto and energy industries to go green; directing the building industry away from casinos, luxury hotels, stadia, homes, and toward creating jobs that actually have meaning, like school construction, restoring factories to compete globally, clearing urban blight, along with the general needs of an infrastructure in shambles. Nor should we ignore—rather jump start—commonsense oil drilling and furthering clean coal so the economy could regain its health and hopefully melt away the crises.

Alas, again, Congress is going to be stampeded by misinformation and later regret.

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wall street politics

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It's not the $700 billion that rasies my hackles, but the distrust that it will only prop-up a house of cards.If it were up to me I would let the thieves of Wall Street fall

I say let them go down......Just make sure you have enough in gold and oil before they pull the plug.

For starters, revitalizing the auto and energy industries to go green

Overprotection of the auto industry is why it is failing in the first place so why keep overprotecting it?

The energy industry is still well capitalized these days. They already marched to DC and said regulate us so we can move forward. A perfect example that shows us how retarded congress is.

like school construction

Sounds like a local government issue to me.

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Overprotection of the auto industry is why it is failing in the first place so why keep overprotecting it?

In the 70s, it sure saved Chrysler's ass. And btw the government got back every penny with interest.

Sounds like a local government issue to me.

Yes, but there are so many in need it takes greater infusion of revenue sharing just as Sarah Barracuda came into Title 9, which if left to locals it would never materialize.

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In the 70s, it sure saved Chrysler's ass. And btw the government got back every penny with interest.

They have been doing it for years. Its called tax breaks.

Yes, but there are so many in need it takes greater infusion of revenue sharing just as Sarah Barracuda came into Title 9, which if left to locals it would never materialize.

Money doesnt grow on trees. Wait till you see how much the dollar tumbles after the bailout. Better yet wait till you see what happens after the election.....All the promises will be scrapped, the tax cuts will expire for all income levels , and the Wars will go on until the treasury runs out of ink.

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In the 70s, it sure saved Chrysler's ass. And btw the government got back every penny with interest.

Early 80's for the Chrysler deal. The shady thing about that was why the Gov. bailed out Chrysler and then let AMC go under not the evenhanded approach one would expect. Anyway the UAW is putting the finial nail in the US auto market coffin now. Good think there are plenty of Japanese, European, and Korean cars on the market (coming soon Chinese models). US auto workers can sit back an reminisce about the good old days.

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like school construction, restoring factories to compete globally, clearing urban blight, along with the general needs of an infrastructure in shambles

Bravo! If I would change anything though, I would state "restoring factories to provide locally" not globally. If you have smaller factories closer to home, they can produce more of what you need domestically. This way you don't have to burn a thousand gallons of exorbitantly expensive fuel to move a widget from factory in Sao Paulo to assembly plant in Indonesia and then ship to retail store in the States. Also, if more food is grown or comes from within 100 miles of where you live that also cuts down massive expenditure of fuel.

Saddly, what's good on the local side is usually bad for the global side and vice versa. Having smaller, more accessible (and sustainable) operations close to home is better on a local level- you have more jobs in your community and more self-reliance. This has the downside of being far less efficient and less competitive with major multi-nationals however.

Anyway the UAW is putting the finial nail in the US auto market coffin now.

Yep, even though 89 % of the entire U.S work force is NON-unionized it's those gol-darned unions ruining everything! Nevermind the fact that overseas manufacturers have been producing far more efficient and reliable vehicles for years while domestic autos have dragged their heels in advancing.... yep, clearly the fault of the ebil unions!!

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Anyway the UAW is putting the finial nail in the US auto market coffin now.

Do you even realize that Toyota, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Mazda, and Saab all make cars for the U.S. markets with union workers?

The US auto industry is profitable in foreign markets but knows that it can simply lobby the US govt for tax breaks and subsidies if it doesnt make a profit in the US.

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what's good on the local side is usually bad for the global side and vice versa. Having smaller, more accessible (and sustainable) operations close to home is better on a local level- you have more jobs in your community and more self-reliance. This has the downside of being far less efficient and less competitive with major multi-nationals however.

I'll take it. I still like the old farmstands.

Early 80's for the Chrysler deal.

I thought it was the 70s under Carter's watch. Actually it was Mitzubishi who saved Chrysler.

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Actually it was Mitzubishi who saved Chrysler.

With a Zero?

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Do you even realize that Toyota, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Mazda, and Saab all make cars for the U.S. markets with union workers?

Sure do! But the foriegn auto makers aren't paying granpapy Jone's retirement from when he was building model A's now are they?

Sure US auto makers are profitable overseas because they don't have unions in many places where they are being built.

yep, clearly the fault of the ebil unions!!

Not evil, just greedy

Nevermind the fact that overseas manufacturers have been producing far more efficient and reliable vehicles for years while domestic autos have dragged their heels in advancing

Yep those Chinese sure love those Buicks (link)! Me I guess I just hop into my reliable 12 year-old Mustang and go to work. As long as the automakers make a model or two for the treehuggers it's ok that their cars, SUV's and (especially) trucks are getting larger. Wonder how many Armada's and Titans they sell in Japan.

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Sure do! But the foriegn auto makers aren't paying granpapy Jone's retirement from when he was building model A's now are they?

That type of pension plan is actually more prevalent in non union companies or public sector unions. Union negotiated private sector pension plans generally follow other models which may include trusts, or defined contribution plans such as 401k's and ESOP's, or a combo.

In any case the foreign auto makers with plants in the US that are unionized are profitable.

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LINK

In any case the foreign auto makers with plants in the US that are unionized are profitable.

No doubt... but the companies are passing on the costs of the generous pensions (especially from the 50's, 60's, and 70's) to the customers in the price of their cars. Most foreign automakers in the US built plants in the 80's and later. Auto manufacture is less labor intensive than in the earlier years, and the workers in the foreign owned plants are just now reaching retirement age. Don't you think there is a price advantage to the US built foreign cars over domestic cars? Sure some will buy what they want no matter the cost, but I think many look at the price before making their decisions. I never said unions were the only problem, Unions can help and hurt. US cars sucked in the late seventies and early eighties, a key time for imports to get a foothold. But when you have a choice between to comparable cars, one imported and one domestic, an additional 1 or 2K can mean the sale or not.

From the UAW site:

The UAW has approximately 640,000 active members and over 500,000 retired members in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.

There are more than 800 local unions in the UAW. The UAW currently has 3,100 contracts with some 2,000 employers in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.

A unique strength of the UAW is the solidarity between its active and retired members. A solid majority of the union's half-million retirees stay actively involved in the life of their union, participating in 690 retiree chapters and playing a vital role in the UAW's community action program.

Since its founding in 1935, the UAW has consistently developed innovative partnerships with employers and negotiated industry-leading wages and benefits for its members. UAW members have benefited from a number of collective bargaining breakthroughs...

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Don't you think there is a price advantage to the US built foreign cars over domestic cars?

It depends on how well the trust portion of the retirement plan is managed. Some unions have plans that are currently self sustaining and dont even require further funding. The US auto makers say that the % of retirees shouldnt matter because the trust is fully funded for it. Ill take their word for it but I hope that is isnt full of bad mortgage derivatives.

The biggest factor in price advantage is actually the difference in state business taxes. The foreign companies put plants in states that gave them tax breaks but also situated themselves close to ports that have better terminals without the seasonal problems and excess costs that exist in regards to the great lakes ports.

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