Hmm. I was thinking too much UI and not enough plain English. I suppose "net revenue" is better.

If you truly have 0 taxes coming in, then you're right, you'll get no production (I think there might be something weird where some RP will still be produced?). When I said 0 earlier, I meant 0 BC added to your treasury, not 0 BC coming in.

By late game, I put my production slider down to 0%.

That's what helps generate mass quantities of cash late-game, and the only thing that deducts from it is military support costs. That's why I rush-buy those 300 capital ships per turn. So that I won't get cash docked out of my income unless absolutely necessary.

Then again, it's fun having a treasury of 50billion BC's.

Yes I said billion.

And another thing that I put my money towards, is keeping the galaxy in a state of peace. Bribing other races into making peace treaties with eachother instead of war. People will say that this is a waste, but I consider it quite challenging. Especially at Suicidal difficulty.

@GW and CY, but mostly CY (GW has the basic idea correct)

If you have 50 shields, you will have 50 shields regardless of your tax rate.  With the sole exception that you run yourself below -500BC, at which point production cuts off entirely.

Production doesn't auto-shut off when you have no net income, it just stops once you pass -500BC.

To clarify: If you have, for simplicity's sake, a colony (with 16 industry on it in DA) with 12 industrial sectors (at 12 industry a piece) on it and (again for simplicity's sake, because it's not possible without tech trading) no racial bonuses, you have a total of 160 industry on said planet.  If your military funding is at 100% and you have a ship set to build on the planet in question, you will spend 160BC on your military production, and receive 160 military industry for that turn in exchange.  This mechanism does not care how robust or frail your economy is; if you are at higher than -500BC it will still happen.  Further, if you are running an economy of 30,000BC/turn, you do not gain any additional production on this, or any other planet.  Your economy is simply so you can build, and afford to maintain, more structures, which provide your production.

Actually, you do gain more production depending on your income.

This is based on your production spending, the amout of production buildings you have built, and your overall income before spending.

Not to mention Economic and Research Treaties.

EF, I realize you're trying to help, but you're not helping.

Although you've said basically the same thing I've said, you've said it in such a way that it could be confusing.

The point I'm trying to get across is that raw income does not increase your production by virtue of being present, as CY appears to have been under the impression that it did so.  It simply allows you to increase it yourself.

I did not say what you said-A.

And B, what you said is way more confusing, not to mention wrong.

Compared to mine which is simple and to-the-point, and perfect in every way.

And what happened to the smileys tab.

Did I spam too much with them???

Last game I actually got a large planet with a morale booster and dropped one of the altarian temples on it (75% *2), plus the 20% bonus for counterespionage and one of the other capitals (Economic or political - whatever gave a 50% bonus). and although I broke 20 Billion fairly handily, it was still a problem child before 32 (+6 farm on a 300% Tile) Billion was reached.

Worth it in monetary terms though, and I think Influence is a direct relationship, so temporarily building up population is a spiffy way to flip other peoples planets on a crowded map, but money wise, 100 Billion people over 10 planets beats 100 Billion on one.

Jonnan

Well, until you hit -500, deficit spending.

Jonnan

Are you fucking kidding me?

Do you honestly believe that an empire with a single planet (the homeworld), with 24 research and 24 industry, at 100% research funded, with no bonuses, will produce more than 24 points of research just because you have a 1,000BC/wk income as opposed to a 100BC/wk income?

Yeah!!!

I know that for a fact.

And there is no need to be a DICK WITH EARS!!!!

(Although I find it amusing that we're having such a heated argument over this!!!)

Do me a favor.

Fire up a new game-on Cakewalk if you like, so the AI doesn't interfere.

Set your tax rate low enough that your pop grows-100% approval is best.  Set your research slider to 100%.  Drag your production slider to 100%.  See what the number is.  Turn off production, keep the tax rate the same, let the game go for a few turns.  Hell, go ahead and max your pop if you can, while keeping the same tax rate.  Only thing that should happen is your population should increase, and therefore taxes.  Check the numbers again on research.  They will be EXACTLY THE SAME even though you are making MORE MONEY.  If you want to make this more obvious, colonize your secondary on turn 1, but don't go mucking around colonizing other worlds or even surveying while doing this; it may skew the results.

Granted, the above example is not a 100BC to a 1,000BC comparison, but it does show that increased income does not, directly and without the player taking action, increase production or research.

You're free to try this with building ships too if you'd like.

Now that we've established that you're wrong, would you mind telling me what the purpose of labs and factories is in your universe where income increases production output?

Sole Soul:  Thanks for the info. Like I said before, I play so casually that I never followed the numbers. Basically I play that labs = RP  factories = IP and more money is always a good thing, so stock exchanges are good.

I just assumed that where it says somethinmg about your spending on reserach, for instance, that you were getting more RP than if that spending number was lower. And more stock excahnges and other income meant more money for research spending. Either way I'll just keep doing what ive been doing. lol

I only play on Gigantic and Immense maps only. I find it that u need to have a good Economy to keep your empire floating. When I get a good Economy i just turn down my taxing to where i get 90-95% and bringing in about 200-1000bc per turn. I just take my highest PQ and turn them into my Economic worlds. I try to keep them close to other planets that build Capital Ships in a reasonable time frame just incase i get an enemy that tries to make a surprise attack well into my empire.

I never said that production increases without player interference.

You have to build stock markets in order for this to happen, along with farms and morale buildings so that you get mass amounts of cash flowing.

However production does increase based on your money making capacity.

If you make 5million BC's per turn, a percentage of that based on your production sliders does go up depending on how much money you're make.

You can set overall production spending to a hundred %, and research spending to a 100% as well. And you will see that, as soon as you start earning 100K BC's per turn and up, a percentage of that will go to production spending, Let's say 25% of your overall income (since I don't know the exact numbers) will go towards research spending.

So in other words you can litterally have 100 research points without building any labs on said planet. So if you start making 5 million BC's per turn, you are able to have a class 1 planet dishing out hundreds of research points per turn. So you can research down the entire tech tree in a matter of turns without building any labs.

I rest my case.

Beat that!!!    

And I will predict your next post........

You will say that in order for me to make those mass amounts of cash, I will need hundreds of planets.

And those hundreds of planets will be giving me research points no matter what, because of the planet's capital.

My answer to that is, yes there will be a bunch of base research happening no matter what. However my money will all be going into social spending until I start generating those 5 million BC's per turn. Once that happens, I will immediately switch all social spending towards 100% research spending. And when that happens, I will instantly set all my planets to focus on research spending, and I will see that I am indeed generating hundreds of research points per turn on planets which do not have any labs built on them.

Now......

I truly do rest my case.

@EF

That's where you're wrong.

Never believe you can predict me, EF.

I'm still tackling this on a per-planet basis because the math is much, much simpler there and there are far less variables.

-

Based on some of your other posts, you play consistently or frequently at or above Masochistic.

Look into the numerous posts that I and others have made regarding the hidden bonus that the human player gets to research at levels beyond Tough, when a research bonus is present.

As it does not matter whether you have selected this bonus at the race customization screen, have it through being in power via government, have built trade goods (Nano Recorders, Hyper Computers), or have it via techs (Planetary Improvements) or simply mining starbases (+39 per maxed out one in DA, more or less in TA), all of this is relevant.

On Suicidal, which you say you play, this value is a 2.64 (not counting the rings that a planet may have-that messes up my calculations somewhat and I'm unsure why), which means that for every point of bonus you have in research, you actually get 2.64 points of bonus for it.  A maxed out DA mining starbase would give you +120 (.96 but it's truncated) research bonus, rather than the 39 it would normally give.

This would be how you would be seeing more than the actual research output of a given planet (labs * racial, trade goods, mining bonuses * research funding * funding).

Do note that this happens regardless of your income; it is a phenomenon that is present on turn 1.

-

Clearly, you have either not done what I suggested in my previous post, or have only done so on a difficulty higher than Tough (given the minimal effect it has up to this point, probably Maso or higher), and failed to take the above into account.

It's worth noting that I myself have done this literally hundreds of times when testing out other game mechanics and I have never, ever noticed a difference in research output, or production output, that was attributable solely to how much more money I was making, in DL, DA, or TA, regardless of whether this was a 100-->200BC/wk difference or a 100-->10,000BC/wk difference.

I'll tackle this, and then I'm done.

I'm actually unsure if you're saying that you're generating hundreds of research points per turn, civ-wide, or if you're saying that you're generating hundreds of research per turn per planet.  There is obviously a very large difference here.  Suffice it to say the former should actually be much larger, while the latter should be somewhat, but not extremely, smaller.  See the math below, if you'd be so kind as to read it.

Initial colony in DA is 10 research (I believe you're still on DA).  Average mining resources on a gigantic galaxy tends to be about 5 or 6 of each type in most cases-sometimes less, sometimes more.  I'm going to assume you have Nano Recorders from Sensors III but I'm not positive if you have Hyper Computers from Aereon Missile Defense.  I'll do one with everything you can/should get, and one without the things you may not have.

With: 20% customization + 20% political party + 10% planetary improvements + 10% nano recorders + 20% hyper computers + 25% planetary bonus in the form of a research coordination center + 234% from 6 maxed out mining bases.  Total is +314%.  Multiply by 2.64 (suicidal bonus) and we get 828.96, or +828% truncated.  10 * 1.25 = 12 truncated, 12 * 9.28 (+828%) = 111.36 (111 truncated) with no labs.

Without: 10% planetary improvements + 10% nano recorders + 195% from 5 maxed out mining bases.  Total is +215%.  Multiply by 2.64 (suicidal bonus) and we get 567.6, or +567% truncated.  10 * 1.25 = 12 truncated, 12 * 6.67 (+567%) = 80.04 (80 when truncated), again with no labs.

If you have managed to pick up a bit from anomalies (I believe there are a few that add some), colonizing choices (one to four choices here), and have up to 10 research mining bases, you could be looking at the following:

20% customization + 20% political party + 25% Altarians ARC'd + 10% planetary improvements + 10% nano recorders + 20% hyper computers + 25% planetary bonus from research coordination center + 390% from 10 maxed out mining bases + at least 15 to as much as 30+ from anomalies and colonization events = 500-515%, which gives us +1320% to +1359.6% (which I will consider to be +1360% and hope I won't be murdered for :)).  This leads to us having 10 * 1.25 --> 12 * 14.2 or 12 * 14.6 which gives us 170.4 (170 truncated) to 175.2 (175 truncated) research, again with no labs.

Your "hundreds of research points per turn" on "planets which do not have any labs" is questionable, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility, given the above numbers.  With sufficient mining bases, and anomaly/colonization event gains, one could even see up to 300+ research points from a single planet with no labs on it, at Suicidal, but much more than that is unlikely to happen even on a gigantic map.  I have actually ignored colonization events that enhance a given planet's research production, but they are so small on this scale (generally sub-40, so less than another mining base) that it does not significantly skew the results.  In addition, this is about planets in general, so an outlier will not prove your argument.

If you wish me to believe that you are correct, then you must provide screenshots.  It is that simple.  My experiences tell me otherwise, and are in line with the wiki (note: the wiki is essentially player-controlled), as noted and referenced below, whereas yours are not.

Your being wrong has no effect on my games, and if you manage to play your games with that mindset, it is only because the economy truly does matter, just not in the sense that you think it does.

-

On to someone I might actually be able to help to understand the game better:

CaptainYar, more money is always a good thing.  But if you have 100 RP, the maximum you can spend on it (without accounting for racial bonuses of all kinds, hidden difficulty bonuses, and rings) is 100BC a turn.  Having a larger income will not, as EF is convinced, change this in any way, shape, or form.  But of course you get more out of it if you do in fact spend 100BC on it (100% funding, 100% research) than if you spent 30BC on it.

From https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Research

In the Dark Avatar expansion pack, research works as follows:

• Research buildings and two types of colony buildings give base research. Bonus tiles just add their stated bonus to the base research of the building on that tile.
• Technological Capital, the Omega Research Center and Research Coordination Center add their stated percent of research to base research.
• The player pays the full amount of base research.
• Colonization event that enhances research, production-enhancing modules on starbases, mining research resources, initial race abilities, two trade goods, (in DL) rings around planet and Planetary Improvements technology add their stated percentage of bonus research to base research. Player pays only half of that bonus. The payment is subtracted from the treasury and is not visible on planet mgmt. screen.
• Research output on planets with Extreme environments is NOT penalized.

there's not much more that I can add to this other than Sole Soul has the calculations down perfect.  More income per turn in and of itself does not equate to increased production/research.  That being said, have higher income will allow an intelligent player to invest in structures that would increase said production.

yep. SS is spot on. not trying to gang up, EF, but you seem to have mistaken some aspect of the game mechanics.

Fine........

I will give in gracefully by saying.......

That indeed I am wrong.

After your post SS (which may or may not be as long as my All-Economy Strategy post), I realize that there is no point in fighiting this argument any longer.

I actually have read your entire post. And the numbers, are (I'm willing to believe) correct.

So all in all you win.

And no I did not do what you told me to try doing.

However, in my future games, I will entertain a small shred of hope, to believing that I am, even slightly correct, and that no matter how marginal it is, income does have an effect on production of any sort.

If Stardock makes a GalCiv3, I would love to see the per-turn income having a major effect on production.

Eitherway......

This is EF signing off, and in the meantime, giving in gracefully.

ROCK ON!!!

I also think that (after looking at my own) SS's recent post may actually be longer than my All-Economy strategy post.

Either that, or it's because 25% of the replies area is taken up by a blank space cause by the Avatar picture.

I also wish that my post could get as many replies as this one is.

It's been a while since anyone responded to mine.

(SIGH...)

And it's also been a while since I used these.....

Yeah.........

I'm bored.

it's kind of a dead horse. there's already been at least one post about an all econ strategy (by mumblefratz IIRC).

@EF

Thank you, for being gracious in "defeat".

But it's really not about right or wrong, or who wins or loses.  You might have noticed I've been wrong on a few things myself around this forum.   

While I don't share your desire for an income-dependent production modifier in GCIII or other future games, I have to agree that it would be very interesting.

And if your shred of hope that things actually work that way motivates you to run a stronger economy, then, in your own words...rock on.

It's good to see the emoticons are back, though.  I know they're your trademark.

This my build for econ planets, which normally make up 90% of my colonies.

1 farm, 1 factory, 1 research, 1 morale, 1 recruiting centre, 1 food distribution centre. The rest are markets. All other morale comes from Harmony Crystals, Frictionless Clothing, Ultra Spices, and Virtual Reality Modules, plus any morales resources. This will eventually cap the population at 18B. If the planet is a Minor or AI capitol. Ignore the farm. This caps the population at 20B.