Liberals Make My Head Hurt

So...if there was a cure just sitting there on the table, they wouldn't use it?  Sounds like making a child suffer to prove a point.

Although Down's Syndrome is chromosomal in origin(an extra one if I recall)...I'm not sure if stem cells would help at all.

~Zoo

An amazing audio of a Hugh Hewitt caller on this topic... http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/MediaPlayer/AudioPlayer.aspx?ContentGuid=f32b86cc-7572-4227-97d5-13b82f659be6 towards the end, Hewitt asks her how she feels about Biden's boneheaded comment

If the Nazi's found a cure for polio by experimenting on Jews, does that now justify their experiments? (and before some one yells Godwin's law - they tried)  To some, yes. "Let's make some good out of the evil".  To others no "it only pushes the ends justify the means".

In the end, you have to decide if you are for human rights, and that using humans as guinea pigs is not justified under any circumstances, or that "if it saves a life, it is worth it".

I would do almost anything to save the life of my child.  I dont think I could take an innocent life under the justification that "the ends justify the means".   And once the precedemt is set, who decides?  The president's child needs it, so he trumps your child?

Like Wopper in War Games, many feel that the only way to win this game is to not play it.  Because once you start on that slippery slope, the next stop is the bottom.

Wow Anthony!

I just listened to it.  Sure makes Biden's comments even more obscene (and cold) when you listen to this caller. 

It's actually starting to really make me angry.  How dare he say a mom like Cheryl or Sarah Palin are uncaring towards their children by NOT following the opinions of the Democrats (in this case for embroyonic stem cells)  who murder children without so much as a blink of the eyelash.  

It sure looks to me like he was using this Down Syndrome baby to make his point for stem cell.  He's treading on very dangerous territory.  How stupid.  I've known many DS children over the years and they have brought nothing but joy to their parents.  They tend to be more loving than most children and very very close to their parents.

Like I said....Biden's standing on sinking ground.  How sad  he believes in such things. 

If you want an answer listen to the caller on the radio show that Anthony put up.

Second of all, a Downs Syndrome baby isn't suffering.  They grow up to live pretty productive lives and are usually quite happy and content.  From my experience DS children bless all those around them.  I look at Sarah's baby and see a very contented, carefree and happy baby. 

We're like antidepressant medication

We say we can work and help out with problems, but no one really knows for sure, and there are quite a few side effects.  We can make people warm and fuzzy because we might be able to fix them or make them feel like complete crap enough to have suicidal tendencies :P  I constantly feel the damage from being involved with other members of the same party (the yahoos, the extra strong stuff if you will).  Overdose is eminent if the big wigs don't tone it down and just play their message more direct and less vague instead of throwing a temper tantrum over a strange woman and a geezer.

The first rule you have to learn is that people are stupid. Not because they have a low IQ, but because they really don't care enough to read the facts for themselves and decide impartially. My sister is smarter than I am, she topped my grades (which was almost physically impossible) at school, and yet she couldn't tell you one policy difference between Republicans/Democrats or our own native Conservatives/Labour. Why? Because she doesn't care, because nobody else she talks to really cares. So they say "who are you going to vote for?" And it's not 'well they have better social policies, but then these guys have better economic policies' it's 'well None will make a difference to me and Tony Blair was from Labour, he went to war in Iraq'

For the next ten minutes the conversation involves about 5 very intelligent girls who suddenly spout drivel 'ZOMG WMDS ITS ALL A CONSPIRACY BLOOD FOR OIL, BLOOD FOR OIL I TELLS THEE!'

Slight exaggeration, but you get my point

There are so many scientific surveys published at the moment about how your peer-group dictates your behaviour, tastes and trends, even to the extent of who/what you find attractive, and politics is exactly the same. If Have I Got News For You (a British comedy show) or Mock The Week (again, British comedy show) say X is bad, it's all hail Y. Democrats are cool in America therefore unless you live in Alabama or something, if you're a very casual voter you'll vote Democrat. In the UK it's cool to be socialist as opposed to liberal, so you'll vote Labour - except the media has changed it's mind, so swathes of people feel obliged to change their mind too.

Depends if your an Anti-semitic bastard. It's a common theme held in animal-testing circles. Animal testing can't be wrong because they made use of the tests. Well, lets strap humans up and test on them then! Unfortunately the Nazis did, and whether or not results come from testing on humans or animals, the ends never ever justify the means.

I don't believe in sacrificing people for experiments...unless it's of their own free will.  If good is found from something bad, then we might as well use it...but that's no justification to go morally bankrupt in the puruit of such things.

I'm not a mad scientist.

~Zoo

I just shot soda through my nose I laughed so hard at the irony.

     Speaking for myself as a Democrat, I tire of the "moral relativist" accusation typical of Republican campaigning.  I maintain a set of values and beliefs that I live by, and while they may not be consistent with someone else's, they remain mine.  It may also be worth mentioning that posturing behind a claim of "Righteousness" appears to me to be the utter heighth of arrogance - presenting as though one possesses the corner on the "truth" is annoying, disrespectful, and presumptuous.  One of the things I've learned over my 54 years is that change is a constant.  Clinging desperately to old adages and so-called truisms is a lonely, narrow course, and ignoring the right to change one's mind is foolish.

     You "right-wingers" out there wanting to "convert" me to your opinions of what is right and what is wrong?  Please afford me the respect that I afford you.  I don't, nor would I, presume to know the "truth."  Please understand that I know that you possess the right to think that you know what the "truth" might be, you just don't have the right to integrate that opinion into the political theatre.  Our ForeFathers took care of that, and if you are the Americans that you profess to be, please respect the Constitution and the freedom that it stands for.  Also, please, respect the limitations.  The days of King James are long gone. 

Reading the blog about stem cell research, etc.....

     Ultimately, we'll be dealing with the science of Eugenics in the 21st Century.  It will be a fact of life, and the writer asking who would "oversee" this science hit the nail on the head.  I think that the answer would be, "It's up to the individual, provided the 'do no harm' provision of the Hypocratic Oath remained the standard." As a licensed health care provider, this provision is an unshakeable guidepost.  I would also suggest that "HARM" is not a nebulous term; the context of the word leaves no particular room for debate.

     At this point in our development as human beings, Eugenics is a perplexing concept, and perhaps it should be.  If a mission or goal statement for this science were to be offically attempted, I can imagine cries of Aryanism, etc., would scream rampant.  Fear overriding sober pragmatism is probably reason enough to keep Eugenics "on the shelf" until we learn that we are the masters of our technology, not the other way around.  And yes, we need take great care deciding who the "masters" will be.

That whole first paragraph was a riot, there needs to be an ironic comedy catagory.

And that goes on the slippery slope.  Where does it end?  A father kills a man because he is the perfect organ dono r for his daughter (taking care not to damage the organ).  So why waste the organ, right?  You have just stepped into "Some people are more equal" and to get your way, you harvest humans, for another's use (you will be prosecuted, but if your goal is to save your loved one, you dont care).

It may seem like a simple answer "Make some good out of the evil", but that is the trap.  Once you start justifying it that way, what is to stop you from then deciding "President X is more important than person y, so lets just make this one sacrafice - this time".

Except "this time" becomes the norm, and not the exception.

Actually Lesterleon, I could not care less about your opinion, and definitely aren't looking to convert you.  Unlike the author, I no longer beat my head against a brick wall.

This is a forum to express views and opinions.  If you think it is here to "convert" you to something, then by all means protect yourself.  But you may try discussing instead of condemning especially since you appear to be new to not only the forum, but the concept of discussion.  If this one blog is going to convert you to anything, you are looking to be converted.

If you have anything intelligent to add to the discussion, please do.  Otherwise, you can take your talking points back to the daily kos.

Nothing's ever simple when it comes to that...and it really needs to depend on the morality of the people involved.  Is it okay to sacrifice someone for someone else against their will?  Is it okay to sacrifice a few for the good of all?

At any certain point, it's a judgement call...some scenarios are obviously wrong, but some are not so clear.

~Zoo

no one is trying to convert anyone here.  I don't try to "convert" my Liberal family or friends.  It's useless.  They don't think and that's the whole crux of the matter.  They base everything on emotion.  Everything matters by how they feel it should be not because there is any clear reason behind their logic.  Facts just don't matter. 

you mean "change" like Obama is projecting?  Ya, he's about change all right.  Can't seem to nail him down....tumbleweed comes to mind.  He talks about change but so far I've not seen any change with him.  He's all talk......typical. 

 I never said anything about changing one's mind.  As you grow and learn and receive more information you will change some of your ways or ideas over time, but one thing that doesn't change is truth.  Taking the life of another to make your life better is murder.  It was murder.  It is murder and will always be murder no matter how much "lipstick" you put on it.   Taking the life of another for any reason outside of self defense is murder. 

Situational Ethics.  I guess to some that is a good out.  But I will not use them.  I have to look at myself in the mirror every morning, and what I see I dont want coming from an unethical and immoral act.

It's a good view and we all have our own set of morals and eithics to guide us.  My original point was that we shouldn't spite something because it was obtained through less than satisfactory means...what's done is done.  However, that's no justification to go on a rampage trying to gain more things.

~Zoo

Hello:

Are you framiliar with the Catholic Church?  I was raised catholic and so I understand how this happens.  You see our church attempts to get us to think (no that is not meant as a knock on any other church, I do not know how they feel about education, however I have never heard of baptist school...or evangelical school...but in my city we have more than one catholic school) a hem...the Catholic church tries to make us thinkers...and between having seen what subscribing to abstiance or pro life positions does...and we rethink it and do something else.  In addition our church beleive some wacky stuff...we think that the bread and wine literally becomes the body and blood of christ because the preist is granted that power by the Lord...

Catholics have faith in the Lord, we Love Jesus, and many of us do not switch faiths because we like the framilarity of our mass that we have grown up with and we like our church and its people, I am sure there are other reasons.  So yeah, we're hypocrits...remember the pederass priests?  No one is perfect. 

Biden in his love for humanity and the desire to help make life better for those that are born.  I am not sure where you are comming from on his beleifs changing with the winds.  Personally I find this a difficult position to setter within myself and I respect him for taking an unpopular position. 

By the way...Loud and harsh words indicate a weak position.

Rev Phil

But by using the fruits of ill gotten gains, you are only condoning and encouraging that activity.  That is why the law does not allow bank robbers to use their ill gotten gains to buy a lawyer.

It may be done, but we dont have to bless it.

See above.  All Biden is doing is what the Nazis did.  They used human beings to find cures and advance medicine.  No, that is not love of humanity.  That is laziness and barbarity.  It is what is reprehensible about the holocaust.  And what is practiced by those who claim to profess belief in a faith that states - unequivocally - that life begins at conception.  And that taking of that life - because it is convenient, expedient, and easy -  is murder, pure and simple.

For those that want to debate that life does not begin at conception, fine.  We can debate that and I can respect your beliefs.  For you are not murdering, just removing parasitic growths.  But for those that state life begins at conception - and then support abortion - up to and including post partum (as biden does), you are no better than the last mass murderer.  Because that is what you have stated you (the generic you) are.

The same can be said for members of just about any group out there whether it be religion, politics, just about anything.  There are some members that don't bother to actual think for themselves and merely follow what they are told to think.  These are known as sheeple.

Now I certainly don't defend anything that Biden says, but on the topic of stem cell research what is so wrong with it?  Now I'm not advocating that women should get abortions just to provide embryonic stem cells to do research with but what about stem cells that would be thrown out in the garbage anyway?  What about stem cells taken from the umbilical cord or the placenta after birth?  What about women who are going to get abortions for other reasons donating the embryo for stem cell research (assuming the timing is right)?  Like I said the alternative is that these potential stem cells are thrown out in the garbage so why not get some use out of them as long as it is voluntary?

What if the cure already existed because of stem cell research?  Would she honestly turn it down just because of how it was acheived?  To go to Doc's example of a polio vaccine acheived by Nazi research on the Jews.  Yes the way the research may have been done conflicts with your set of morals but are you honestly going to toss away a perfectly good cure to a debilitating disease just because the methods weren't the best.  Why are you going to reinvent the wheel?  Certainly if you find out about the methods before the cure is found then the research should be haulted if it is so reprehensible like the Nazi's experiments on the Jews, but once the cure is found it may as well be used rather than letting the sacrifices of those Jews be completely in vane.

If we are talking about abortion here, the bottom line is that many religions differ on when life begins.  So by advocating that the government take a position of stopping one from having an abortion we age going against what the creators of the constitution wanted, seperation of church and state.  Conservative members of this forum often like to point out the dreators of the constitution to me so I thought that I would help remind you of it.  Seems conservatives only use it when it suits their issues.

Just a side note I personally would never advocate anyone have an abortion, but I dont think it is right that we legislate what others do with their bodies.  I do agree their needs to be more clear laws though about when you may have an abortion.

Very.  I know it from inside and outside as I was one. 

now that's the first I've ever heard of this.  The CC has never been big in this department.  In fact they have thru the centuries DISCOURAGED any thinking that goes outside their realm of belief passed down by their leadership.  I could write a book on all those who were discouraged to think for themselves inside the CC.  Where in the world did you get this idea?   I know one priest who threw the bible in the trash can saying  "This is what I think of your book."   Another said "you don't need to know anything, we do everything for you." 

Some Catholics do, but not all.  You're really making my point here.   Many Catholics like Biden may like their church and FEEL comfortable in it because it's all they know but then they go against it as every gust of wind that carries them away (think tumbleweed).  Again, no foundation.  They are rootless. 

His love for humanity is to kill the unborn?  Are you saying this because he's Catholic?  Or "says" he is?  What does the EVIDENCE show you?   See this is what I'm talking about.  No foundation.  How can you stand on the premise that life begins at conception then advocate abortion?  It's like saying..."well I'm against murder, and wouldn't do this myself but if someone else wishes to murder, it's his/her right.  Who am I to tell him otherwise?" 

No I think anyone coming to the defense of the unborn loves humanity.  You've got it backwards. 

Also, how can you stand here and tell me how good the CC is and then respect Biden who is GOING AGAINST HIS OWN FAITH?  Which side are you on?  Or are you showing your roots as well?

 Unpopular position?  With who?  It can't be with the abortionists (they must love Biden)  so it must be with the CC.  So you are defending  the CC (very pro-life)  as you inhale and defending Biden (pro-abortion)  as you exhale.

See this is why I get so confused when talking with a Liberal. 

what about the body of the unborn?