God doesn't need your money

'And God said to the People of Israel, "Go forth and cut me a check, because I need a new bumper pool table."

~Zoo 3:48

True, God doesn't need money, but then again, God didn't need Moses to free the Israelites.  God didn't need David to kill Goliath.  God didn't need Jonah to go to Ninevah, and even when he did, he didn't do much for God anyway.   Jesus didn't even need Judas to betray Him or the cross to give up His life for the Atonement.   For that matter, niether God nor Jesus needed the atonement.

God doesn't need money, but as you point out, organizations do.  But then again, if God wanted to, he could ensure churches have all the electricity and supplies they need to do his work.

What is needed though are things we as mere mortals can do to bolster our own faith in God.  We donate money to our churches so that, through our faith, electricity and supplies can be paid for.  We donate money so that, through our faith, the needy can be provided for. 

We don't give money because we think we need to trade it for salvation, money donated sends the same message as money spent... it is a show of support.   When I buy something, I'm supporting whatever product I choose to spend my money on.  When I donate to a political campaign, I'm showing my support for that candidate or cause.  When I pay tithing, I am showing my support for my church and since I believe God expects me to pay tithing, I am also showing faith in God.

You bring up a really important point here... and that is that time and talents are also used to show faith.  Money is needed, but aren't we commanded (at least if we believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) that we "love the Lord, God with all our hearts, might, mind and strength"?  If all we are giving is money, we're probably not living up to that commandment. 

 

If you take the point one step further (which probably no one will do except a Bright), consider:

 

If you didn't have a church, you could still worship  There wouldn't be any electric bills, building maintenance fees, pastor salaries, etc.  All the money used to do good works could still be sent to do good works plus some.  It isn't like churches have a monopoly on charity.

 

So what purpose does a church serve?  What does it add that you can't get anywhere else?  Don't say "fellowship" you can have that without church, too.  If the answer is "some modium of organization that wouldn't exist without it" I would say that the question "WHY doesn't it exist without it?" is worth a look.

  So now you're a philosophizer.    The fact is that it does exist and I participate and I DO want to support it, monetarily.  My point is that I believe the Lord helps those who helps themselves.  I don't think I'm supposed to fill the churches needs above my own families needs. 

  That is true. 

lol

  This is something that I have a hard time with especially since I'm not officially a member of the church.  I actually have been a "visitor" for a long time but I am going to take the next membership class and actually join.  I feel bad asking for help from anyone.  I feel like it's no one's responsibility but my own and I will just do the best I can.  I am making it one day at a time.   

I agree with your comments, I too believe God understands when I am unable to give money to the church but I try to give some of my time and help out as I did this Sunday. I, however, always find it very disturbing how some people can be so ignorant at the concept of not going to church due to not being able to give money to it. To me that is more of an excuse to justify not going to church. But that's just my opinion.

Oh how true this is. Here I am, currently owning furniture given to me by a fellow church goer and for 3 weeks have been unable to get that furniture to my house because the person I depended on to help me failed me and it took me a while to ask anyone at my own church for help and once we did, someone volunteered to help.

Reverend Deceiver, 
Need my money to live 
In your tower above 
Your bronze praying hands
Should've been bigger, should've been bigger
Maybe then he could hear you clearly
Softly and tenderly, somebody speaking
somebody crying, somebody bleeding
Get off my T.V.
For I do not believe that he needs my silver

(Nixons, Fellowship)

I think a lot, maybe most, churches are corrupt.  I would be more inclined to support the "give all you have and God will provide"
thing if there wasn't so much misuse, abuse, and waste in church funds.  

Well sure, people can worship on their own and the money they would provide t a church in part for bills and in part to help others in need  could go to help others almost completely. So yea, one could say a church may not be necessary. But worshiping alone is not always something most people wanna do. Some people feel more comfortable sharing their beliefs with others, especially since God wants them to share their belief with others. Eventually these poeple would have to gather somewhere and whether it's a church, a house, a rented hall or even in the middle of the woods; there are some things that would still need monetary expense such as a place to sit, candles or lamps to light the place, electricity for lights and other devices that may be used and maybe even some drinks and snacks if some wish to have them while worshipping. Not to mention the possible rental and maintenance of the location being used.

So, what purpose does a church serve? It allows people to unite under a common faith to share in their benefits and sarrows of life and their faith in God under a single, neutral, (technically) uninterrupted, house of worship with decorations that provide more feelings of being closer to God.

I couldn't agree more!!

It comes down to a very simple question for the believer, as a lot of faith questions do.

"Do I believe that what I believe is really real?"  If you really believe God is real, there's no longer a question of 'how am I going to pay for this?' because the answer is, as it always is anyway, 'God will provide.'

So, when a family believes that and gives beyond their means, and suffer ill consequences because of it, or have to accept government assistance to survive, is it because they didn't *really* believe?  It's THEIR fault, right?

1. Their unbelief is not an excuse for God.  He asked them to test Him.

2. 10% is by definition not beyond their means.

3. It is my experience that government assistance is based on income, not expenses, and so they should have had it anyway.

4. The church should be helping this person so that they don't suffer ill consequences, or need government assistance.

5. If it's not a 'just this month' or 'getting back on my feet after a setback' problem, they are already living above their means, which is a problem completely apart from tithing.  God will still provide though.

who is saying to anybody to give "beyond their means?" 

To give to God doesn't necessarily mean you are giving beyond your means.  We talked about tithing on the other thread...giving 10 cents on a dollar and you keep 90 cents is should NOT break anyone's bank. 

To accept the government's help (as in free school lunches in my case) is just another way of God looking out for us.  He uses whatever means there is to take care of his own.  I remember hearing James Dobson tell some stories about how poor his family was...dirt poor.

Quite often his dad (a preacher) gave away his own salary that day because he saw a family who were so desperate he couldn't help but give.  His wife would meet him at the door and look at his face and say "you gave it away again didn't you?"  He would nod.  They would go to the back room and pray.  And every darn time, they would get an answer.  One time they had nothing in the house for groceries and there was a knock at the door with a neighbor stopping by delivering groceries just when they were in the back room praying for dinner. 

This has happened to us time and time again.  God is faithful and will provide for our needs.  He looks down and moves in people's hearts to give to another in their need of desparation.  God does hear our cries. 

 

My issue with all this is the general sentiment that everyone can, and SHOULD, give a minimum of 10% of their income to the church.

I don't understand how anyone can't see that there are literally families out there for whom 10% is the difference between food and rent money and eviction and hunger.  Some people really do just barely get by. 

I'm not against giving.  I don't know anyone who doesn't think it's important.  I just don't agree that a)  everyone can afford a set amount and b )  the church is always the most beneficial place to donate.

Everyone CAN'T afford a set amount.  That's why it's a percentage.  If they said, hey, pony up $10 everybody, then that would be different.

Seriously, you don't understand that some people actually NEED 100% of their income? 

10% of 60k still leaves 54k.

10% of 14k only leaves $12,600. 

Can YOU feed, clothe, house, and otherwise provide for your family on $12,600?  You don't agree that $1400 makes a difference?  You don't think a family living on barely over 1k a month couldn't put to GOOD use an extra $100 a month?!?!

That could mean the difference between self-sufficency and welfare or between peanut butter and popcorn (sorry Ted) and nutritious food.  But then, I guess the government is doing God's will by making up the difference for families who give 10% they can't afford to give. 

 

Of course it make a difference.  Of course they could put it to good use.  They could use that money to establish a higher standard of living for their family.  Absolutely.

Jythier, how much do you think it takes to feed and clothe and shelter a family of, say, 4?  Minimum requirement, most basic?

Yes, most of us (even those who are considered "poor") have a decent standard of living and could make sacrifices.  That's not true for EVERYONE, and I think it's callous to judge families who can't afford to give.  It's not up to you to decide what standard of living is appropriate for them, but there are some people out there who are genuinely and literally using ALL their income to live. 

I guess if you can spare a buck for a treat for your kids now and then, you should give that to God instead. 

Who?

It's always been my understanding that the more ya put in the plate the more ya could sin. Heh, so that means I can't do a whole lotta sinning if I just fork over ten percent of the pathetic I make....

  This isn't true.  I do believe in God.  I also KNOW that God doesn't always provide.  There are millions of people starving and suffering in this world that believe in God.  You have to be able to see that. 

  I don't think most but I do think that some are.  I do have a problem with the "celebrity" TV preachers who live extravagant lifestyles financed by some people who really can't afford to give. 

  I suppose its true that's true of some people but not all. 

You see the difference is that you didn't ask this person for help.  They knew you had a need and offered freely.  It's different to ASK someone. 

  Exactly.  I think the concept of handing over money you need to pay bills over to the church and then going to the church for assistance is silly.  Yes, most of us DO have discretionary money that we can spend as we choose but there are some people who need every penny to live. 

First of all you must remember what the church is there for.  The church is for our benefit.  There are two reasons why God instituted the church.  First and foremost is for corporate worship. That is the body coming together and worshipping God as a whole on a regular basis.

Second it's to encourage and help one another.  We are supposed to, as the body of Christ to help one another.  In scripture the church is likened to a physical body.  We have hands, feet, eyes, arms, legs etc.  When one part of the body hurts the whole body is affected.  We are supposed to care for the hurting member and it's done for the glory of God who is the head of the body. 

When we give in faith, during those lean times is when we really can see God at work.  Oh it's much easier to give to God during the time of plenty but it's during those very hard times we see God up close and personal and it teaches us to rely on him and not ourselves. 

So Loca, if you find yourself struggling, yes you should go to your Pastor and tell him you need help.  He will help you and direct you.  

In our church back home we have boxes upon boxes of free produce that we get from the local store once a week and bread products twice a week.  We have a volunteer who goes and loads up his truck from the grocery store and then the church is open on that day for its members and their neighbors to come and pick to their hearts content.  This has been a tremendous help to everyone in the church.  I miss that.  I never had to buy any produce.....potatoes, salad mixes, greens, fruit, tomatoes (boxes and boxes) beef stew starters, garlic, onions, celery, etc.  You name it we got it.  All free.  Same with bread and bakery pastries.  My grocery bill was slashed in half and I would take a full box for my neighbor and her two boys. 

Do you think you could start a program like this in your church? 

I am not going to comment much on tithing amounts.  That is something between a single person and God.  I KNOW when God wants me to give (outside of regular giving), because he doesn't leave me alone...hahah.  But I also know the body of Christ, keeping it in the black, helping it, is important.  Administrators are people too!  hehehehe.

Anyway, Loca don't lose hope.  God does hear you...and even tho you may not see the answer....an answer/ or even just a respite is CERTAINLY on the way.  Don't stop pouring out your every woe to Him, so he can specifically answer each one, so there will be no doubt He hears you. 

I will say this too...I have traveled all over this globe, either living or on vacation, and can honestly say I've never seen Christians starving because there were no available resources.  Christians band together and share, it is the very NATURE of the faith.  Jesus is essentially sharing his blood with us, covering us in His righteousness so we can see the kingdom of heaven.  Without it, we'd never get in.

Now, notice I said "because there were no available resources."  I have seen Christians who have issues with pride, with anger, resentment, etc that won't take/accept help.  But its not because it's not there.

 

 

 

I give what I can, depending on what I have in my pocket at the moment and what I can spare. To me, as much as I believe in God, I believe a treat for my kids once in a while is very important, even if it means I don't have that dollar or 2 to give to the church on Sunday when I attend. I don't believe God will hold a grudge or punish me for using that dollar on my children rather than helping pay for the light bill at a church. I refuse to believe that. I am not worried about being specific or even coming close to giving 10% of my earnings to a church. If God thinks I am wrong, then so be it., Like TW mentioned, some of us actually depend on 100% of our income, even if it's just for Kids meal at McDonalds, a candy bar at the corner store or an extra gallon of gas.

If you don't believe God provides, then don't give when you don't have excess.  That would absolutely be negligent to your family.

However, since I do believe God will provide for me, as He always has in the past, I will tithe no matter how much I make, unless it's less than $9 because then my tithe is $0.

Am I a better Christian because of it?  NO!  Just one who believes in tithing.  I think I'm right, but does it matter what I think is right?  Only to me.  It's between me and God, right?

But what I'm not above is trying to convince others that God will provide for them, as it says in the scriptures.

But I will never agree with Boudica, because she comes from an entirely different stance on the Bible, and Jesus, and Christianity in general.  I disagree with KFC on this one issue, but I know that most of our beliefs are very close... so I'm curious if my church (and therefore me) isn't in the wrong on this issue.  I will still give the 10% to the church though, even if that's not necessarily where the giving has to go Biblically speaking.  I feel personally led to do so. My church does define tithing as strictly the 10% given to the local church.