The Great Skill Debate

from Demigod Forums
There has already been a huge amount of discussion in separate threads concerning the skill style that Demigod should use for its Demigods.  From what I can gather, there seems to be two lines of thought:

Warcraft 3 style skill tree:  This focuses on a small group of skills, possibly with a rather large usage environment (by this I mean that the skill is depended on what it is used on, i.e. AoE for minions, direct damage for Demigods)

Diablo 2 style skill tree: A large range of skills where you have to focus on one or two of the three trees available to be effective.  Skill synergy between certains skills within the same tree apply (by this I mean that putting points into one skill can provide benefits to another skill down the track)

Now there is, I believe, legitimate reasons to go with either of these skill trees.  For example, the Warcraft 3 style explicitly defines the type of demigod that will be created, with item usage providing the customising factor.  This helps to (in sum instances) streamline the game play as you are not spending too much time in the skill tree choosing as well as having multitudes of skills to remember to use at any one time.

The Diablo 2 style provides more customisation, meaning that no two demigod will be the same in any one game (even if they are the same Demigod), without the out the need for particular items.

I could probably go on about both styles, but suffice to say, both styles are not wrong, it's more of a personal thing.

Something I would like to throw into the ring is the skill tree style that is implemented in Titan Quest.  I found that they really struck the nail of the head with skill synergy in that game.  For each tree, they have 3-4 major skills that are used throughout the game, which are improved by either putting more points into that skill, or selecting a more advanced skill that leverages off the existing skill.  For me, that is the shining light for skill trees that I have seen in games to date.

So in a way, the Titan Quest style is an amalgamation of the Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2 skill styles.

Anyway, on to the debate, what are your thoughts on the type of skill system that should be used in Demigod and why (please at least put in one sentence as to the why of your selection, even if it is repeating what others have said).

Also, if you have a different idea, put that down instead.

As can be seen in my post, my choice goes to Titan Quest style...  :D
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Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top
For those of you who haven't played Titan Quest, below is an example of the type of synergy I am talking about:

Base Skill: Ice Shard (Available at: Level 1)
Effect: Does a certain amount of damage to a single target. Adding points to this skill increases damage

Additional Skill: Shatter (Available at: Level 3)
Effect: Adds area of effect damage to Ice Shard. Adding points to this skill increases AoE damage and possibly range

Additional Skill: Pierce (Available at: Level 5)
Effect: Adds percent chance for Ice shard piercing enemy. Adding points to this skill increases likelihood of piercing target. Stacks with Shatter.

Additional Skill: Shard Freeze (Available at: Level 7)
Effect: Adds freezing ability to ice shard. Adding points to this skill increases freeze length. Does not stack with Shatter.

Therefore, the base skill is ok, mainly used against Demigods. If you add the Shatter ability then your ice shard can now take on mobs as well. Pierce improves Ice shard and if you have Shatter as well then you have two AoE spells going each time you use one ice shard (as long as there is a creep behind to get hit by the pierced ice shard).

With shard freeze, this adds an even more deadly Demigod killer. Freeze on the spot so that can't get away, however it does not stack with shatter, so you cannot freeze mobs.

You could mix and match, maybe you only want to use it as a demigod killer, so you don't need pierce or shatter (use the points somewhere else).

Please note that I am not talking about balance here, just throwing down ideas.

With this sort of system, you would probably want to get 3 or so points to use per level (the same as what Titan Quest does).

The beauty about this system is that you will only have 4-5 base skills (therefore only 4-5 hotkeys are needed), but you can customise them the way you want.
Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top
I think the way you describe is kinda what I was thinking:

Lets say at level one a demigod could choose 3 abilities, 2 one level abilities and a two level ability, the two level ability is standalone, but the 2 one level abilities are prereqs for other abilities, kinda like tech trees or talent trees, except that there is only one tree, and you can get everything in it. As far as synergy and such I wholly agree!
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top
I like the Titan Quest skills idea, its indepth but not complicated. In a battle lasting between 10 and 40 mins for instance, much of it would be spent looking at the skill tree if the Diablo style was implemented and in a recent article it was stated that the game doesn't pause so you have to be quick. The only way that would work is if you outlined a plan at the start of a match, but that isn't very fun :P we want to jump right in and start smashing things :D :D
Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top
Thumbs up from me for this Skill idea  :CONGRAT: 
Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top
Most important thing is Skill Synergy and Combos. Stuff like this makes games that are easy to get into and tough to master. Which usually means replay value and overall game longevity.

A great game to showcase this is the Warcraft III map/mod Defense of the Ancients; aka Dota.
In Dota your skills are what define your Avatar and your choice of Items are what define your strategy.

That's why it works so well. You can pick characters that you know will match your play style, but it never automatically determines the outcome of the battle. You augment your abilities with items that help you strat.
Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top
I like your proposal simply because there are few skill choices. Dota is much closer to this then War III (think Ogre Magi).

One thing to add, I would love to see an ultimate ability that is unlocked at higher levels similar to DOTA. The graphics engine combined with the custom animations (DOTA is limited to what is already in the game) would make ultimates a thing of beauty.

Perhaps along the lines of the Titan quest, you can level your basic skills into ultimate/s.
Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top
Secondly I want to throw in another games concept to be incorporated.

The MMORPG Vanguard tried to implement an idea into their combat. It didn't add as much strat as was intended I think but it could work for Demigod. It's exploiting weaknesses.

Here's an example how it works.

Ever drop an ice cube in warm water?

With your demigod you shoot an Ice Shard at Enemy_01. It does it's regular effects but also adds an exploitable weakness for lets say 3 seconds.

A fire ability can exploit this weakness, so Ally_01 quickly blast them with an Inferno attack. The exploit triggers and now Enemy_01's armor cracks (icecube in warm water effect) and he takes maybe 15% more damage from physical based attacks for lets say 5 seconds.

This helps create team skill synergy. I like it, do you like it?
Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top
I think when people say war 3 they're talking about custom games that revolve around heroes. (i.e. dota!) Other then that I love all the ideas here as well.
Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top
I like the way to use a low number of skills , but with high lvl of improvement

I played Age of Conan ,a Mishra priest , and found it fun , to unlock in the 1rst points of the talent trees a Spell ( Ray of light) dealing dmg on a line in front of you
You can improve it with so many possibilities( More Dmg/Healing effect/Range/Area/Etc)

In a Duel , Everyone will know that you will cast this spell , but what will be the effect ?
Casting time ? Mana Cost ? Dmg ? Area Effect ? Counter Effect ? So different

Would be great to have somthing like 3-5 Low Level Spells with High customisation and 1 ultimate

But i would hate , to have Re-specification possibility , Erasing your points in order to replace them differently in the same game
Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top
I think you've all got it wrong. THe way it should work is as follows:

Each time i level up i get my stuff. Each time you level up i get your skills instead of you!

Now I know there might be balance issues so Also Each time you level up i get your addidtional HP's and energy bonuses.


... bad idea? lol

On a serious note they are all good suggestions, Especially the ones that facilitate teamwork. But I'd say limit most synergies to 2 skills to use(different Demigods) or 3 for more powerfull synergies. Any more and an entire team would need to be in 1 spot on the map


And yes Clearing your skills away and re allocating them is a very bad idea. You make informed choices throughout a game for a reason. Haste leads to failure-being able to re-allocate the skills is horrible
Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top
Hasn't it already been decided that there will be 4 normal skills, and 1 "ultimate" skill?

I don't see this changing.
Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top
clearing skills isn't necessarily bad - if you have to pay for it (like that book you buy in store in normal warcraft III)
Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top
I don't believe so innociv, I could be wrong though. You might be thinking more along the lines of dota which has 3 basic skills 1 ultimate, and 1 skill every character has.

The way I saw it is kinda like a tech tree (ala sins of a solar empire).
Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top
Odit wrote:
... One thing to add, I would love to see an ultimate ability that is unlocked at higher levels similar to DOTA ... Perhaps along the lines of the Titan quest, you can level your basic skills into ultimate/s.


Having access to ultimate skills can definitely segway into this idea, I see no issues there.

The Jooma wrote:
Secondly I want to throw in another games concept to be incorporated.The MMORPG Vanguard tried to implement an idea into their combat. It didn't add as much strat as was intended I think but it could work for Demigod. It's exploiting weaknesses.Here's an example how it works.Ever drop an ice cube in warm water?With your demigod you shoot an Ice Shard at Enemy_01. It does it's regular effects but also adds an exploitable weakness for lets say 3 seconds.A fire ability can exploit this weakness, so Ally_01 quickly blast them with an Inferno attack. The exploit triggers and now Enemy_01's armor cracks (icecube in warm water effect) and he takes maybe 15% more damage from physical based attacks for lets say 5 seconds. This helps create team skill synergy. I like it, do you like it?


This idea definitely has some merit, however, like brn4meplz indicated I think it needs to be restricted to two or three spells at once, as there could be different lanes that need defending so you don't want all you eggs in one basket. Also, this suggestion, as I see it would only come out in clan play over pubs due to the teamwork required. This isn't an issue, because better teamwork usually leads to a much more rewarding game experience (just look at TF2 pub games versus clan games).

innociv wrote:
Hasn't it already been decided that there will be 4 normal skills, and 1 "ultimate" skill?I don't see this changing.


innociv, I haven't seen this mentioned by any of the GPG crew as of yet. If you know of something here, could you please post a link.
Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top
I don't believe so innociv, I could be wrong though. You might be thinking more along the lines of dota which has 3 basic skills 1 ultimate, and 1 skill every character has.The way I saw it is kinda like a tech tree (ala sins of a solar empire).


This is something that's already been confirmed AFAIK..
4 skills and 1 ultimate you can't start leveling until a certain level.

It was on the GPG forums. Scathis said it.

Not only that but read the gamesradius interview. He mentions they each have 5 skills I believe.
I don't think they're going to scrap the skills system this late in the game..

Having 30 skills each or something and a tree like D2 requires tons of skill effects.


The idea is that if you want a different "build" you choose a different demigod.
You aren't supposed to be a one person army.. they're supposed to have weaknesses so you have to use teamwork to accomplish all tasks well.
Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top
No where in the games radar thing does it say anything about 5 skills:

I began climbing the ladder up to level 25 the moment I waded into combat and shredded my first enemy soldiers, earning both experience and gold. I then picked a deadly ooze aura that slowed and damaged everything around me and a venom-spitting ability from the skill tree.


Emphasis mine.

All it tells us it goes to level 25 (which is where you might have gotten that from), and the fact he says skill "tree" implies something along the lines of a Diablo or (my best analogy) A part of a sins of a solar empire tech tree.

Also a link to said post would be wonderful, but I am very sure I don't remember such a thing (And I've been around since it was announced, though, I just recently started to really post) And I'm quite tired.
Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top
While there was talk about having 'ultimate' abilities, there hasn't been mention to the amount of skills aside from Scathis saying a few things such as:

I find it intriguing that everyone assumes demigods only have 4 skills."

"DotA only has 4 skills per hero. We ... do not."
Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top
Right.. they have 5 :P
Reply #19 from Demigod Forums Top
As much as I don't like to use the term, I have to say "links or it didn't happen".
Reply #20 from Demigod Forums Top
Oh well i found this thread to late :(
So i quote myself from an other thread:

Well i would like a lot of skills to choose from, but only few to actually use so you can individualise your character.
What is really important is that the skills have synergies when used (i.e. combos), so that spamming one good skill will get you nowhere.
Whatever they (the devs) do the result should be:
(i) Unique Demigods (i.e. unique to each others but also unique to their opponent controlled "clones")
(ii) No useless skills
(iii) a lot of possibilities to plan around each demigod, that means skills and equipment (i.e. min/maxing)
(iv) No spammable skills, have variety, synergies, combos ect.

Oftopic: Many complaints about the dota Heroes arise from the way Warcraft 3 attributes work (i.e. int, dex, str) and i hope that Demigod won´t go in that direction.
Reply #21 from Demigod Forums Top
This is something that's already been confirmed AFAIK..
4 skills and 1 ultimate you can't start leveling until a certain level.


ATTENTION! SPOILERS!

I wanted to comment on this one. This information is incorrect. Demigods having varying amounts of unique skills. For example, the Torchbearer CURRENTLY has ten unique skills. He has eight activate-able abilities and two passives. In addition to this, he has several(TBD number) of activate-able items that he can use at a given time.

CURRENT(and subject to change depending on what I eat for breakfast) implementation for Demigods is four skills available at any one time plus three additional item abilities for a total of seven. The Torchbearer acquires his other three activatables by Reliving the Immolation, which sets him on fire.

It goes without mentioning that this the CURRENT implementation and is subject to change at the drop of a dime.


Mike "Tyo" Marr
Demigod Lead Designer
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Reply #22 from Demigod Forums Top
I think that you will be able to get every skill each demigod has, just a hunch/hope. The way to customize is by:

A) Playstyle: perhaps the biggest piece, how you play the hero is the most important thing as to how he is different from the same heroes. And everything really derives from this as the following choices are typically based off this.
B) Items: Diffrent items cause the same demigod to have diffrent choices and play differently, buying armor will help you live longer in combat but buying regen will help you recuperate faster and (if high enough) will let you last longer in combat, both defensive measures but in completely diffrent ways.
C) Skill Selection: When I say this I don't mean choosing between what two skills to get, but choosing the order in which to get them. Reaching max level (25?) will probably take awhile and therefore when you get what skills will be important to how he is diffrent to others of the same character. For example some one who choses a nuke will play his demigod completely diffrent then that of someone who choses the AoE buff.

Overall I think that the skill tree (notice that it's not plural) is much like a tech-tree in a game like Sins of a Solar Empire, in that you can eventually get everything, but the order in which you get it is crucial, and that it will have multi-level skills, skill enhancing 'skills', (and for generals especially) units/unit abilities, tiers (by level? every 5?) and pre req's.

But again thats just my opinion, I'm sure weather its anywhere near right or not dosn't matter as GPG (and Stardock, but they aren't making it) Will do a great job with the game.

Edit: NVM! Tyo allready spoke his godliness.
P.S. Devs: Wish to clear this up? or do you like the activity/ideas/laughs our arguing creates? Or are you just gonna torture us all the way till beta?
Reply #23 from Demigod Forums Top
I hate to double post but I would like to respond to Tyo in a diffrent post, as he responded while i was writing my last one:

First: I would again like to thank Tyo (AND OTHER DEVS!) for paying attention to the community! This is why GPG is one of my favorite developers! Thank you! And keep it up! (thats waaaay to many ! >.<)

Anyways:

This information is very informative, from how I read it there is only one tree of skills, as the way Tyo says it kinda feels like that every time I play Torch Bearer I will be able to use all my skills, as why not just make a godly immolation skill 'build', which furthers reinforces my idea of tree of skills much like a tech tree, in that you probably have to reach a certain level to be able to relive the immolation, and that you can put points in these other abilities to improve them.

But now some questions for the Tyo! (fell free to answer one, many, all, or none! As most devs wouldn't even read this)
1) Are passive counted as 'available' skills? As the math doesn't work if they're not or if they are:
2) Torch Bearer has 8 activate-able skills, 4 non-immolated, 3 when immolated... = 7 (or 9 if you count the passives which leaves me more confuzzled unless:)
3) Do the players choose which skills/items to be in this list?
4) Is my tech tree thing even close?
5) Do you like questions? (because:)
6) Are you sure you can't release the beat sooner? (as we'll stop asking questions... actually we won't but lets just say we will XD)
7) Do you like pie, cake, or _____ (insert pastry here)

P.S. Thank you for the torch bearer/skill info!
Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top
ATTENTION! SPOILERS!I wanted to comment on this one. This information is incorrect. Demigods having varying amounts of unique skills. For example, the Torchbearer CURRENTLY has ten unique skills. He has eight activate-able abilities and two passives. In addition to this, he has several(TBD number) of activate-able items that he can use at a given time.CURRENT(and subject to change depending on what I eat for breakfast) implementation for Demigods is four skills available at any one time plus three additional item abilities for a total of seven. The Torchbearer acquires his other three activatables by Reliving the Immolation, which sets him on fire.It goes without mentioning that this the CURRENT implementation and is subject to change at the drop of a dime.

Mike "Tyo" MarrDemigod Lead Designer


Tyo, I'm glad you were able to enlighten us as to the current state of Demigod skills.  :D  If, as you say, the design of skills is still in a state of flux, do any of the ideas currently listed in this thread interest you?

Oh, and I can't help this:

The Demigod design will change in, 3.... 2.... 1....

Reply #25 from Demigod Forums Top

1) Are passive counted as 'available' skills? As the math doesn't work if they're not or if they are:
2) Torch Bearer has 8 activate-able skills, 4 non-immolated, 3 when immolated... = 7 (or 9 if you count the passives which leaves me more confuzzled unless:)


10 skills:
2 passives
4 non-immolated
3 immolated

Perhaps the last one is Relive the Immolation? >.>