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Tell the dead children

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Tell the dead children

from JoeUser Forums
Think Saddam was contained? Think he wasn't a terrorist? Do you think, in any fashion, that the Iraq war was a mistake?

More Iraqi mass graves
"The head of the unit, Greg Kehoe, who has seen more than his share of horrors in places such as the Balkans, couldn’t believe what he saw.
"I’ve never seen women and children executed, defenseless people executed in this fashion," he said. "I mean, you look at a young woman holding her 2-year-old child with a gunshot wound to the back of the head. I can’t find any reason to justify that."
When I saw the images I could only think back to Hilla, a town south of Baghdad where I went in the spring of 2003, just after the fall of Saddam. A mass grave of Iraqi Shiites was discovered there.
I will never forget it for as long as I live. Thousands of bodies. Thousands of families swarming over piles of clothing and flesh. Earth-moving equipment digging through the raw humanity. Digging up the past."

Tell the dead children "wrong war, wrong time". Tell the dead mothers "blood for oil". Tell the sons, daughters and fathers of the dead that removing Saddam was a "colossal failure of judgment."

Go ahead, I dare you.
international
24,287 views 76 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think caring about life is pretty darn specific. It means life, yours, your neighbors, your countrymen's, your fellow human's. You speak of the cost, I assume our cost, but look at the cost to the Iraqis who couldn't defend themselves against a sadist, a megalomaniac, a murderer, a butcherer. Selfish. That is your generation. You have no room in your heart, mind, soul, for compassion, responsibility, selflessness. You have no comprehension for the value of human life, unless it is yours. Nothing in life is free. Ever.

Define soldier. I would like to know your definition. Because you apparently don't know what it means to them.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
You speak of the cost, I assume our cost, but look at the cost to the Iraqis who couldn't defend themselves against a sadist, a megalomaniac, a murderer, a butcherer.


Do you think that Iraq is a safer and happier place for Iraqis at large now? Some things are better now, but many things are worse. The fact is many, many innocent Iraqi civilians have lost their lives in this war. Yes, we do our best to avoid civilian casualties, but we are unable to eliminate mistakes and accidents in war. That's the nature of the beast. The civilian death count is over 3, 200 ( Link ). Innocent loss of life continues, though now it is unintentional rather than intentional. Is that an improvement? In addition to that, we now have American loss of life.

You have no room in your heart, mind, soul, for compassion, responsibility, selflessness.


You are far overstepping here. When you attack me personally, you degrade not only me, as you intend, but also yourself. Please refrain from personal attacks on my character.

Nothing in life is free. Ever.


True.

Define soldier. I would like to know your definition.




There's my definition.



Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply #1 By: Myrrander - 10/16/2004 2:37:19 PM
yup, it kicks ass that we punish a mass murderer by bombing the very people he used to murder


Since when? With the weapons we used very few civilian casualties have occured! Most of the civilian casualites occured like the ones that got in the way of exploding the "Bradley". Other than those kind are the poor people who get caught in the middle of a firefight.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply #8 By: Deference - 10/16/2004 3:14:35 PM
...I just have to add this... it's amazing how effective the Bush campaign's rhetoric has been in seizing American hearts and minds with patriotic / religious snake oil. Bush feels just like I do! Oh, he does? You believe that...that's what's sad. I like how people think Bush is just so deeply spiritual when his background is lacking in any religious substance aside a "I'm born again! Amen!" All the while amidst the third debate, Kerry is pulling out scripture quotes and Bush can barely muster (or is that bluster) a "God Bless America."


Talk about religous "snake oil". Look right at Kerry. He's the one with no religious substance!
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
Myrrander, do you ever feel like you'd rather have a root canal than debate this stuff? I sure do.
I have to say, JU is the most vicious, arrogant blog site I've ever come across. I don't understand it. I don't understand the hatred and venom that spews forth against democrats from these guys. It's sick.
It's also very sad.
Reply #31 from PolMach Forums Top
I have to say, JU is the most vicious, arrogant blog site I've ever come across.

God how I love it so!
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
Voodoo , texas has a very legitimate reason to say the things she does. As does everyone here. That is why we serve.
The fact that there are people who believe differently is fine.
There is a point where using the deaths of our servicemembers to make your point crosses more than one line of acceptability.
I will accept it from texas, because her husband is serving in Iraq now, and if stevendaedalus was here
I would accept it from him since he served . If you have never been wiiling to put your ass on the line in the military, don't use us as your
self righteous justification.

NBS-An Insightful for you
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am not arrogant, though I wish I were. I don't believe in God, I do believe in right and wrong. Your picture of that soldier, Tex, is perfect. That is a man with his priorites in line. You like to quote death tolls. 3200 for Saddam is a drop in the bucket. How large was the army he unleashed upon us? How many dead were in that last grave? Idealogy is what the war is about here, and yours is not strong enough. Quit watching the media, it's never good news that gets ratings. If that soldier in your pictures didn't believe what he was doing was right, he wouldn't be wearing the uniform.

I have not attacked your character, unless you believe what I've written describes it. The world is not about you, it never has been. It is the greater good of all who have, are, and will walk on it. If you cannot see it, then I'm sorry, you may never.

As for the continued loss of innocent life, it is intentional. Not by us, but by the "insurgents", who know that, by giving Iraq freedom they are one step closer to obsolescence. Why can't you allow a complete stranger, on the other side of the world, the chance to think and live as you do? Is that too much to ask?
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
She may, Staff Sergeant, but her idealogy stems from selfishness, as I've garnered from her statements. Having been a sailor since the first Gulf War, her staements warrant no merit with me. Not a single damn service member was drafted. This is all voluntary. Bitch and moan as much as we did, we still did it. Being a spouse or a relative does not give you the right to call the war your loved one is in "wrong". Selfish. You have just shat upon your loved ones' memory. I have no respect for that. "I hate the President, but I support the troops." Doesn't work. I don't care how you spin it.

I have never been self righteous. I just believe I happen to see further up the road than most, even with these cheap damn eyeglasses. Too many people want to live in the now, but damned be the consequences later. It is not about you. Why is everybody so myopic?
Reply #35 from PolMach Forums Top
If that soldier in your pictures didn't believe what he was doing was right, he wouldn't be wearing the uniform.

Wrong. In the service, and any vet will tell you this, you do what you are told to do, in basic, the Army "breaks you down to build you up", this is about the extinguishing of the civilian self and the establishing of the soldier who does what he is told and does not waste time questioning his superior's orders. You don't do your job because you believe in it, you do it because it is your duty.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #35 By: Deference - 10/16/2004 6:54:30 PM
If that soldier in your pictures didn't believe what he was doing was right, he wouldn't be wearing the uniform.

Wrong. In the service, and any vet will tell you this, you do what you are told to do, in basic, the Army "breaks you down to build you up", this is about the extinguishing of the civilian self and the establishing of the soldier who does what he is told and does not waste time questioning his superior's orders. You don't do your job because you believe in it, you do it because it is your duty


You sir are dead wrong on this one. Think logically. What the man meant (correct me if I'm wrong fellow ex-squid) was that if the man didn't believe in what he was doing he wouldn't be wearing the uniform because he would not have volunteered in the first place!
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
So you say they're all mindless robots, worker bees, tending to the queen. If you really believe that crap, you got another thing coming. You're saying they joined the military because they were bored, they were poor, they had nothing better to do, no good prospects. They joined up for the benny's, they never figured they'd have to die. They joined up, not for belief, not for a sense of wrong or right, not for a sense of duty, not for a sense of responsibility. You're saying, then, that they were too stupid to think that, hell, I might get killed. You're saying that these "kids" autonomously signed their lives away for no good reaon? Is that what you just said? We're not talking about Pavlov's frigging dogs here. I am not Pavlov's dog. Anyone who ever tells me I was programmed will damn well wish they had never been born with a mouth. I am a vet, my little slow friend, and I believed in what I did. I still do, almost a decade removed.
Reply #38 from PolMach Forums Top
Speaking of Army Basic:







- Grimry Xrunt
Reply #39 from PolMach Forums Top
Here's what I don't understand. I don't understand how an individual can be so upset about the tragic loss of US soldiers, but not also be as upset about Saddam's execution of hundreds of thousands of innocents, how an individual can be so upset about the tragic loss of innocents to collateral damage, but not mention Saddam's mass graves or the killing of 100,000 Iraqi Kurds at Anfal. It seems incongruent to me.

Has society learned the lesson of Neville Chamberlain? And the additional cost in lives as a result of appeasement?

Hasn't anyone noticed that Iran has new neighbors? There is a bigger picture here. I also haven't heard what the alternative solution would be to the deployment in Iraq. It certainly can't be more UN resolutions or "diplomacy", the Duelfer report has shown that China, France and Russia were on the take and actually aiding Saddam. Did anyone actually read the Iraq War Resolution passed overwhelmingly in October 2003? There is a pretty compelling preponderance of evidence that the deployment was justified (which is why Kerry and Edwards vote for it).

I certainly have no hatred for Democrats, my girlfriend is one, so is my Mom. I could have supported Joe Lieberman but the party effectively ignored him. I do question the policy of appeasement, I think history has shown that appeasement delays the inevitable at a much greater cost in lives. I guess there is allot of Nader voters on these sites (who else could those so vehemently anti-war vote for without sacrificing their convictions?).
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #37 By: voodoostation - 10/16/2004 7:06:43 PM
So you say they're all mindless robots, worker bees, tending to the queen. If you really believe that crap, you got another thing coming. You're saying they joined the military because they were bored, they were poor, they had nothing better to do, no good prospects. They joined up for the benny's, they never figured they'd have to die. They joined up, not for belief, not for a sense of wrong or right, not for a sense of duty, not for a sense of responsibility. You're saying, then, that they were too stupid to think that, hell, I might get killed. You're saying that these "kids" autonomously signed their lives away for no good reaon? Is that what you just said? We're not talking about Pavlov's frigging dogs here. I am not Pavlov's dog. Anyone who ever tells me I was programmed will damn well wish they had never been born with a mouth. I am a vet, my little slow friend, and I believed in what I did. I still do, almost a decade removed


I also stiil believe after 25 years. And I've been called an idiot, a moron, a child and a few others that I won't repeat here. "Anchors Away"!
Reply #41 from PolMach Forums Top
You sir are dead wrong on this one. Think logically. What the man meant (correct me if I'm wrong fellow ex-squid) was that if the man didn't believe in what he was doing he wouldn't be wearing the uniform because he would not have volunteered in the first place!

I'm certain the gentleman pictured above entered the service before the Iraq war. Just because one is serving doesn't mean one supports the reasons one is performing one's duty (dang, lot's of "one's" in there!). As you know, you don't get out of the service when you suddenly decide things aren't going the way you'd like, right? You're locked in to your obligation. Your opinion on your duty doesn't matter, you do what you're told.


So you say they're all mindless robots, worker bees, tending to the queen. If you really believe that crap, you got another thing coming. You're saying they joined the military because they were bored, they were poor, they had nothing better to do, no good prospects.

Your words not mine. Assumptions bereft of facts, rhetoric without substance, a loudmouth without brains.

They joined up for the benny's, they never figured they'd have to die. They joined up, not for belief, not for a sense of wrong or right, not for a sense of duty, not for a sense of responsibility. You're saying, then, that they were too stupid to think that, hell, I might get killed.

We've had plenty of people like that in the service as you may know, but, once again, your assertion, not mine.

I am a vet, my little slow friend, and I believed in what I did. I still do, almost a decade removed.

Never said you weren't, but if I did that would make me as equally presumptious and ignorant as you - so willing to open the mouth and declare my obtuse view. So, my tawdry fellow, do me a favor and stop making the vets look bad. The point you egregiously failed to address stands, one doesn't neccessarily have to stand in lockstep with the reasons one is doing one's duty, but one must "continue the mission", regardless.
Reply #42 from PolMach Forums Top
Damn, GX, you do look grim! May I ask where you were stationed for basic?
Reply #43 from PolMach Forums Top
Fort Sill, Oklahoma
Reply #45 from PolMach Forums Top
As for myself, I will always side with the soldier over the civilian and I am willing to suffer torture eternal for it!


Amen, i wish more people thought this way.
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is Tex's husband. I just thought I would bring a little clarification for you dumbass arm chair generals who think they know everything because they watch CNN 24/7. I am not serving in Iraq currently, I am in Afghanistan. There are things going on here that you will never hear about. It is even more so in Iraq. That place is chaos. As to your opinions of a soldier's motivations, you don't know shit. It's people like Voodoostation that really piss me off. If you're so hot in the pants about the Iraq war why don't you reenlist and come fight with us? As for your great morality regarding mass murders, why didn't we intervene in Rwanda when over 800,000 people were killed in outright genocide? I guess because Rwanda doesn't have a great deal of oil or natural resources, it is not a viable target. I joined under a lot of false pretenses. I was told a lot of lies or half-truths. I guess it's my own fault for not having enough common sense to see through them, but alas here I am. I will follow the orders given me but that doesn't mean I can't question them if I think they're wrong. Please don't call me or my fellow soldiers dogs or robots, because we're all complex individuals capable of our own thoughts, dreams, and fears. We're also not kids. As a medic I've seen things that will haunt me for the rest of my life. You just can't wish it away and it strengthens your resolve and determination. If you weren't before, you become an adult. I have to go now, I want to enjoy the rest of my leave with my family.
Reply #47 from PolMach Forums Top
your assertion, not mine


that actually IS what you said

you do what you are told to do

You don't do your job because you believe in it
Reply #48 from PolMach Forums Top
Thank you for your time and contribution, enjoy your leave.
Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the test of Allied benevolence in Iraq will come when the US finally leaves. If Iraq becomes a democratic nation in fact and not merely name, where human rights are secured under either common law or US-style bills of rights, then we will know that the Iraq War was done for at least some of the stated reasons: spreading democracy and liberating the Iraqi people. However if instead the government of Iraq is a dictatorship at that stage, as previous US policy on subjugated nations would suggest, then it becomes obvious that the US government acted for purely selfish reasons and without recourse to the desires of the Iraqi people. Of course if the people of Iraq are permitted to vote on the kind of government they want and choose brutal dictatorship following a US withdrawal then the US's actions would be compassionate and morally correct.

To judge it now seems premature in my opinion as most/all? of us here lack access to the internal documents of the current administration. Without the policy documents and the published minutes of Cabinet and upper echelon meetings it is extremely difficult to justify claims to knowing the intentions of the US government and their allies in this endeavour.

The opinions of the individual soldiers are largely irrelevent to the policy decisions of their political masters; as others have said and as many a psychological textbook claims, the entire process of indoctrination is designed to instil more or less unthinking obedience. In their personal lives the majority of soldiers are largely free to hold whatever beliefs they like. But their military training is specifically designed to ensure that these men and women leave their opinions and beliefs at the door when they don the uniform. If they are asked to do something they believe is wrong but is legal then this instilled professionalism is what is designed to drive them to do their duty irrespective of personal opinion. I am no soldier, but that is the intention as described in the various texts on psych and political control that I have had to read in the past. So feel free to disparage my civilian status if that makes you feel better.
Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top
Enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Yours is not to wonder why...

Being the offspring of Vietnam vets, I don't believe I am desecrating the memories of veterans of a time not so long ago. I believed, and still do, my service was right. I felt obligated to serve my country. I served during a Presidency that made military members serve cocktails and meals to dignitaries as if they were common waitstaff. I served during a Presidency that mocked military servicemen and women. I served during a Presidency that made military members wear civilian clothing when visiting the White House. I served for a President who called himself the first "Black President in History." I picked up Haitians from the ocean when they fled their country. I served during Kosovo. I was in the battle group that rescued the Air Farce pilot in Bosnia.

I came from a family whose annual income was less than $15,000. My father joined the Navy in 1957 because he had two choices, the military or jail. My mother served in the Navy during Vietnam. My mother's dad was a sailor. My neighbor, the closest I ever had to a grandfather, was a gunner in WW II. My father made a 24 year career out of it. The Navy, to this day, is my father's first love. I did not join the Navy because I was "poor". I felt an obligation to serve, to make the world safer.

Many, if not most, sign up for a reason civilians will never understand. I don't expect them to. I do, however, expect them to step aside and show respect. I expect them to treat us humanely. I expect them to love their freedom. I never expect thanks.

I don't want everyone to march in lockstep. That makes for a very dull world. I do, apparently foolishly, hope they have the intelligence to understand good and evil.