Dysmas

Lose-lose situation

Lose-lose situation

How can a soldier choose.

So the Presidential elections are three weeks away. Oh boy.


According to Army Times, the vast majority of military personnel, across the Services, are planning on voting for President Bush.


I can understand why, Bush has increased Military Pay rates, gave the Military the authority to offer more and better incentives for re-

enlistment and so on. However, the simple fact that President Bush forced our Army to go to war, with Rumsfelds insistance that

we need only a few combat troops to secure Iraq and that Iraqi Civil Servants would stay in place and keep the country from

collapse, with very limited forces. Granted the Divisons that initally conducted the war in Iraq did a good job, many senior military

commanders insisted that we would need many more troops to secure the country AFTER collapsing the regime.


Bush went to war without a properly planned SASO (Stability And Support Operation) plan. Without an adequate rotation plan for

most of the Army and military in general. And sent a Division, the 101st Airborne Divison, to the Area of Operations, on very short

notice and expected that the Division would be fully combat ready when the time came. The White House also assumed that Turkey

would allow the 4th ID acces to Iraq through thier country, therefor opening up a second front wich would bring the war to a more

rapid and efficent close. Turky refused. By sheer determination and not a little luck, the 101st became combat ready just in time for

the war in spite of all the logistical obsticals not in its favor.




So the war begain. The expected revolt of the sheites upon our invasion did not happen. Not suprisingly as they learned a hard

lesson by our quick withdrawal after Desert Storm, which left them stranded and eventually severly punished for their actions.


Also the surrender, en masse, of Iraqi forces did not occur. So when we destroyed Iraqi Divisions and Battalions many armed Iraqi

soldiers vanished into the country side, either laying low or waiting for their chance to get back at the Americans.



The US assumed that with the fall of Saddam's regime most of the Saddam loyalist paramilitary forces would be dishearted and

give up. The opposite happened and after the capture of Saddam they increased thier insergency.


With the lack of troop numbers on the ground to effectivly guard the borders, many terrorists and terrorists groups arrived in Iraq

and begain operations. Just like the senior military commanders said they would.


The list of policy shortcomings can go on and on, but now we are stuck and I pray for the best.


Like a joke I read, it says of Bush " Im the one who got us into this mess, Im the only one who can get us out."


Despite all of the negative things the administration has done in Iraq, the military does like the fact that we have a president who is

determined and unwavering in his commitment to the mission and support for the troops.



On the other hand you have Senator Kerry. Right off the bat he is a "No-Go" for many service members simply for his anti-war

activities after Nam. Understandably, who would want some one like that as your Commander-In-Chief?


Another thing to consider is that the major religion in the military is Christian and of that almost 25 percent of service members are

Roman Catholic. John Kerry proclaims to be a Catholic but is not in line with the teaching of the Church. Now a politacian who

flaunts his Faith must be prepared to back it up with actions and be willing to suffer the back lash of their convictions.


John Kerry does not. Against his Bishop's, and the Vatican's, orders, he went to Church and recieved the Euchorist. All this AFTER

he declared that he was Pro-Choice and other violations of Catholic teaching. If a person is Pro-Choice and they are a Catholic

there is no problem, but if a person is Pro-Choice and is running for an office which has a direct influence on the issue, it IS a

problem. He is running for President, he declared himself Pro-Choice and that he would uphold a "womans right to choose" then

he was automaticly Excommunicated from the Church. He then ignored the Church's declaration of his status and went right along

proclaiming he is a Catholic while at the same time disobeying the Faith in which he claims to adhere.


How can you trust a man who says one thing and does another, without any thought or respect.


His voteing record and past statements also show him to constantly change his "beliefs" to better mach those to whom he is

speaking to. Basicly he is a liar, BUT he has a much better Domestic Policy than the current adminastration.


Obviously a soldier's home and family are important and regardless of thier job overseas, their main focus is the "home front" and

they would be inclined to vote for one who would better serve both their familys and thier nations domestic needs better.



Bottom line is that a soldier is a defender of freedom, but more than that a soldier is one who attempts to portray the best of

American values. So when we must decide between these two, it is very diffacult as they both, in different areas, personify the

values of Americans, we are forced to choose which value is more important. In fact they are equally important. It is a shame if we

do not vote and it will be a shame when we do.

22,329 views 46 replies
Reply #26 Top




Reply By: T_Bone4Justice Posted: Saturday, October 16, 2004 "If a person is Pro-Choice and they are a Catholic there is no problem, but if a person is Pro-Choice and is running for an office which has a direct influence on the issue, it IS a problem." While I respect your opinion, I cannot agree with you on this issue. An elected official, particularly the president, has a sworn DUTY to try and represent ALL of his/her constituents' interests and not just those who have certain religious values or beliefs. It is also the sworn DUTY of elected officials, and particularly the President, to UPHOLD the law of the land and the U.S. Constitution. It is not the duty of elected officials to impose their religous values upon the public at large via legislative or executive fiat, nor should it be. To do so changes this country's form of government from a democracy, where people have a right to CHOOSE beliefs, to an authoritative theocracy, where your beliefs and conduct are mandated to you via the President's own religious point of view, (that is exactly what happens in Arab countries where their laws are subserviant to their religion...and we all see how well THAT works). The Vatican does not and should not dictate, via the personal beliefs of the President or elected officials, what Americans should and should not believe or do. The law of the land says abortion is legal based on long standing precedent of Constitutional jurisprudence which says that people in this country have a right to privacy and the right to make their own choices regarding marriage and reproduction. While I agree a President should be reflective and rely on his/her religion for strength and wisdom...the President should NOT be imposing any particular religious values or beliefs on other people who have the right to either share those views, reject those views, or be indifferent to those views. Bonus Rating: Trolling Insightful

T_Bone4justice:
I too respect your disenting opinion, hell we opinions are like as*hol$! we all have one
However, I posted Kerry's standing on that particualr issue was meant to demonstrate Kerry's seemingly lack of respect for VALUES he supposedly has. Im all for seperation of Church and State but I feel that if an elected official uses his religion, in anyway, as a part of his platform for running then they should be prepared, as I said, to back up thier beliefs.
Yes, true the president, or any elected offical, has the duty to represent the people AND uphold the law of the land, the president can have a disenting view on various aspects of the law. The abortion issue was established in Roe vs. Wade back in the 70s so while its been on the books for a while, I disagree with the "long standing" phrase you used. Its just a matter of words ya know?
Bear in mind that the concepts of Roe vs. Wade are in effect today, from the moment of its legalization it has been contested greatly, AND the Suprem Court passed that law WITH ONLY ONE VOTE more in its favor. Laws change, we as indivudals have different beliefs, but the law of the land is supposed to represent the majority of citizens views. Unfortunatly, by a VERY slim margin, more are in favor of Pro-Choice. ( obviously I am Pro-Life lol )
If one maintains that they are a Catholic, or an adherant of any other faith, as a matter of PRINCAPLE they should hold firm to their beliefs. So even if Kerry were to be Pro-Life personnaly, the only thing he could do as president would be to lobby for a change in the law, but BEFORE that change he must uphold the law as you said. So a presidents personnal beliefs to really interfere with thier duty shuld not be an issue.
I probably did the issue poor justice on my part so here is a statement by more competent author. I hope it helps illustrate my point.

John Kerry's Catholic problemCal Thomas (archive)April 26, 2004 | Print | SendJohn Kerry made a familiar statement about abortion last week. Bill Clinton said it before him. Many Democrats who wish to remain in the good graces as well as the political clutches of the abortion-rights lobby say it. Kerry said he wants to keep abortion "safe, legal and rare."I understand "safe" (though it's never safe for the baby and often not the woman). I understand "legal" (though contemporary jurisprudence is shifting sand). I don't understand "rare." Unless the pre-born child is human and worthy of the law's protection, why care if abortion is rare or common? Is Kerry attempting to satisfy the tug of conscience deep within this professed Roman Catholic that the teachings of his church are true and that he needs a kind of moral cover - genuflecting in the direction of truth but making no effort to slow or stop abortions should he gain the power to do so?The Vatican said last week that priests must deny Communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights. The Kerry campaign would not respond directly, but a spokesman, appropriately named David Wade (remember Roe vs. Wade?), reiterated Kerry's position on church-state separation that, he said "had helped make religious affiliation a non-issue in American politics."Is the state the issue, or the church? If a Catholic politician, or one of any other faith, sees an injustice and acquires the power to right it, should he then be excused for behaving like Judas and selling his soul for political coinage? Doesn't such a "faith" lead one to conclude that person might be agnostic, and religion, for him, is merely a tool for hoodwinking the unsophisticated?Put it another way: Suppose a hospital board decides the hospital should perform abortions. The pro-life administrator and several nurses protest to no avail. Doesn't their belief in the sanctity of life take precedence over their jobs? Would not God, or conscience, require them to resign instead of denying God or conscience and participating in an act they regard as immoral for the sake of a paycheck?When Kerry and other Catholic politicians say they accept church teaching but selectively deny it when it comes to abortion, they place the state above the church and man above God. They mortgage their consciences to convenience and principle to pragmatism. Should such a person lead this nation?In his memoir, "Inside: A Public and Private Life," Joseph A. Califano Jr. - a Catholic Democrat who worked in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations - expounds on his struggle with the abortion issue. After being nominated as Johnson's secretary of health, education and welfare, Califano, who opposed federal funding for abortion unless the woman's life was jeopardized, consulted his pastor, a Jesuit priest named James English. Califano writes, "I first confronted the tension between my religious beliefs and public policy on the searing issue of whether Medicaid should fund abortions." He says his priest told him while most of our laws are founded on moral values, "my obligation to my personal conscience was satisfied if I expressed those views forcefully. If another view prevailed, however, I was free, indeed obliged, to enforce the law. 'In a democratic society, you are free to struggle to change the law even as you enforce the one on the books,' he said." (Califano was interviewed on my TV show, where he talked about this and other issues.)The problem for Kerry is that he won't even go that far. He is pro-abortion, for any reason and at any time. He has not said how he would work to make abortion "rare," except that like others who hold this position he would probably advocate more birth control, which would also place him in opposition to the teachings of his church.Like the pro-life hospital administrator and nurses, Kerry has a choice: either "resign" as a Catholic, or withdraw from the presidential race. To be president and not even attempt to make abortion "rare" by changing the law that has permitted so many, even for convenience, ignores the power of the presidency and trivializes his faith. In the one case, it leaves an individual open to a charge of hypocrisy. In the other, it puts him in jeopardy of being labeled a heretic.©2004 Tribune Media Services

Reply #27 Top

I'm not saying that Presidents should not be pushing ANY point of view. I'm saying that Presidents should not be pushing an agenda that is based primarily on any particular RELIGIOUS point of view. Nothing is truly "subjective" but we should be trying to do the best we can. Helping the poor is not based solely on religion...it is also based on our sense of civic duty to help those who are less fortunate. I agree there is often overlap...what I am saying is that certain issues are primarily rooted in religion and that is what we need to steer clear of.


Helping the poor is still a moral issue, and I don't see how a non-religious moral is any better to enforce than a religious moral (and aren't there non-Christian pro-Lifers?).

Reply #28 Top

Reply #21 By: Deference - 10/16/2004 2:01:56 AM
I was in the military, I'm not now (thank the F*ckin' Lord!) but if I was still in, I'm sure I'd be a bit peeved about stop loss, the unarmoured humvees, the civilians getting paid more than I for similar work, the deployment pay, etc. etc. .

In regards to your comment, Drmiler, just because I'm a citizen living in G.W.'s America does not make me an informed individual, I certainly don't know all the ins and outs of all Bush domestic policy or all the far reaching consequences...wouldn't you agree?


I'm not saying that you do or don't. That wasn't my comment. BTW I was in also for 6 years. and if they'd let me I'd go back in a hot second!
Reply #29 Top
I have to say that I love the various points of view presented here. We all have our opinions, some may or may not be valid than others but the point remains the same. So to the point that some opinions might not be "valid" is simply subjective as, in reality, all are, especially to the person stateing it. I think its great that we can have a thread with polite, disenting points of view so as to better understand a version of "the whole picture". But at the end of the day we cannot honestly say that we are completly correct, or completly incorrect.
Thank you all for your time AND your views. I plan on, with your permission to iclude portions or the thread in its entirety in a book I plan on publishing in the future, of course entitled " A soldiers point of view" ( unless, with my luck that title is already taken lol) So if you would, give or not give your permission for me to publish your opinions. Thank you.
Dysmas
Reply #31 Top
Alas I forgot to mention, in regards to my book, due to the arguments posted here and they way in which they were presented, I would like to offer each person a free copy of the manuscript, and eventually the book, as a token of my appreciaton. Shortly I will post an email address SPECIFICALY for the purpose of exchanging information as to make this possable, and I will begin the exchange by responding to an email with MY contact information, which can be verified, to show that im not some internet psycho looking for kicks lol.
thanks
Reply #32 Top
Helping the poor is still a moral issue


It's actually a social issue.
Reply #33 Top

It's actually a social issue.


It's a social issue and a moral (possibly religious, considering how many religions stress altruism) issue then. Why should the government go into the business of charity? You might not agree with people who have no desire to help others, but you shouldn't force your morals (in this case, the moral of helping your fellow man) on them.


In a way, everything's a social issue, including abortion (unless murder [which some consider abortion to be] isn't a social issue).

Reply #34 Top
Well, my motivation for helping the poor is primarily moral, but it can be seen as a distinctly social issue and I could get into that for you, but it would take more effort than I am willing to give at the moment. I am too lazy to go there right now . . . later, though.
Reply #35 Top
In response to post #30 by Myrrander, yeah, I've been wondering about that Grim...come on, I think that having more than two parties is a good thing, so why don't you spread the good word? Hearing more from the third party camp is beneficial to all of us, you would do your party a better favor by speaking out on their stance rather than backing G.W. .

On a related note, if Kerry wins this presidential election he will suffer at the hands of the Republican legislature. The impasse wrought will disenfranchise both heavily conservative and largely liberal Americans leaving them looking for alternatives in 2008. That will be the perfect oppourtunity for third parties to take a real bite out of the vote. They should begin as soon as the new president is picked to attack the Big Two aggressively for the following four years, pointing out how the process is so flawed as it fails to adequately serve the needs of or truly represent Americans. If they can then get some electable candidates, they'll have their first real shot at growing their base, I know I would join them (possibly Libertarians) if they were able to show some organized competency and shatter the two party hold on America.
Reply #36 Top

How is it un-Libertarian to prefer Bush to Kerry and to acknowledge that the military prefers Bush to Kerry?


I have a question too. There are plenty of people on the "right" that are going to vote Libertarian here, but is there anybody in this community on the "left" that intends to vote for somebody other than Kerry?

Reply #37 Top
All I can say is that this election is looking like it will be a mess no matter who gets elected.
Reply #38 Top

forced our Army to go to war,


No one forced us to do a damn thing Dysmas. It is a volunteer force.

Reply #39 Top
greywar:" No one forced us to do a damn thing Dysmas. It is a volunteer force."

Thank you for that brillant insight as I am a member of that volunteer force. The phrase I used ".....forced our Army to go to war."
Was ment to imply that he DID force many elements of our Army, 101st ( my Division) and many NG and AR units, to go to a Combat AO on short notice and with very limited supplies.

I can direct you to the book "In the company of soldiers" by Rick Atkison, I believe, a journalist embeded with 101st, to prove my point.
Besides, I dont need to prove anything to anyone. I was there and I know first hand.
Reply #40 Top
And I think you may be wrong in taking a peice of my quote and posting it, it is not in context at all. Here is my statement in its entirety and in no way I am I saying, implying, or alluding to the fact that our military wasnt ABLE to go.

"However, the simple fact that President Bush forced our Army to go to war, with Rumsfelds insistance that we need only a few combat troops to secure Iraq and that Iraqi Civil Servants would stay in place and keep the country from collapse, with very limited forces."

The administration IGNORED the advice of most of the top military officals, namely Gen. Shenskzy ( I F'ed up his name I know lol ) And, as I said, thier calculations proved and still prove, correct.
Reply #41 Top
GX, why don't you drop the libertarian act and just admit you're a republican?


How about this Myrrh? Since this is a personal attack by you here are my thoughts on it: SOD OFF ARSE!

In response to post #30 by Myrrander, yeah, I've been wondering about that Grim...come on, I think that having more than two parties is a good thing, so why don't you spread the good word? Hearing more from the third party camp is beneficial to all of us, you would do your party a better favor by speaking out on their stance rather than backing G.W. .


What did my response have to do with sides other than that the military trusts Bush over Kerry?

Now if you want to go deeper you can talk about how there is little knowledge by the military about Third Party candidates and that they only know the two weasels in the Major Parties.

So because I post an Annenberg poll that was just adding some points to this thread I am Republican??

I think the personal attacks that you two have initiated have to do more with suppressing the information against your case than me.

Now you could also argue that with my military experience I was brainwashed into liking George Bush and such, oh well, have fun because you can count me out of that!

- Grim X
Reply #42 Top

Reply #41 By: Grim Xiozan - 10/17/2004 1:26:25 PM
GX, why don't you drop the libertarian act and just admit you're a republican?


How about this Myrrh? Since this is a personal attack by you here are my thoughts on it: SOD OFF ARSE!

In response to post #30 by Myrrander, yeah, I've been wondering about that Grim...come on, I think that having more than two parties is a good thing, so why don't you spread the good word? Hearing more from the third party camp is beneficial to all of us, you would do your party a better favor by speaking out on their stance rather than backing G.W. .


What did my response have to do with sides other than that the military trusts Bush over Kerry?

Now if you want to go deeper you can talk about how there is little knowledge by the military about Third Party candidates and that they only know the two weasels in the Major Parties.

So because I post an Annenberg poll that was just adding some points to this thread I am Republican??

I think the personal attacks that you two have initiated have to do more with suppressing the information against your case than me.

Now you could also argue that with my military experience I was brainwashed into liking George Bush and such, oh well, have fun because you can count me out of that!

- Grim X


Grim..... are you now or have you ever been a closet republican?

Reply #43 Top
Grim..... are you now or have you ever been a closet republican?


Now I may be a Former Republican that I do not deny but I left the Republicans because they lack the unbridled passion for Liberty that the Libertarians possess, that and the Christian strangehold on the Republicans would harm me, not to mention the fact that they keep giving aid to Foreign Countries who later turn on us.

'Give me liberty or give me death!
- Grimtrick Xenry
Reply #44 Top
On an off topic note. Grim Xiozan's statement that we give aid to countries that turn on us is interesting.
That issue goes back to the foundation of our country. My focus nation is France. France was our first ally and we bailed them out in two World Wars. ( we as in us and our allies, but WE liberated paris and hence, by proxy, France) Now they are against us. I found a cache of weapons in this school and there were FRENCH SAM missles!! Due to the sanctions THAT THEY AGREED TO, they still sold new weaponry to Iraq under the table. We also saved the South Koreans from the North, and they now want us completly out of thier country and do not, in any way support the war in Iraq. Hell there was a rally recently for the removal of all SK soldiers.
But we give aid to many, countries, enemies and allys alike, and no one seems to really appreciate it. Reminds me of this book I read a while back "Bravo Two Zero" by Andy McNabb. He was captured in Iraq during Desert Storm and he saw huge sacks of grain and rice stamped "US" on them. All the while Saddam convinced his country and others that the sanctions that we helped impose was detrimental to his country. Sigh, there are so many sides to a superpower's actions and inactions.
Its also true that most service members have little or no knowledge of the 3rd partys. ( myself included) mabye if the media were required to give equal coverage to ALL parties legitamly vying for office it would benefit us all.
Reply #45 Top
Its also true that most service members have little or no knowledge of the 3rd partys. ( myself included) mabye if the media were required to give equal coverage to ALL parties legitamly vying for office it would benefit us all.


Indeed.

As for the Foreign aid bit to all, if they bite the hand that feeds them, why feed them? Oh well.
Reply #46 Top
Well, its a "Catch 22" if we didn't "feed" them we would be criticised by the world and when we do, were......still slammed....hmm.
I say "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"