Leauki Leauki

The Word on Creationism

The Word on Creationism

The Word is "Lie"

What opponents of evolution (and other theories) don't understand is that science is not about finding the truth (that is best left to philosophy professors) but about finding out something useful about this world.

The predictions of theories can be used in engineering and other fields. Applications of the theory of evolution have been used successfully in such diverse fields as medicine and (yes) computer science. Evolution is solid, a tool that we can use to advance.


For a good article about the difference between a scientific theory and Creationism and the utter stupidity (and, I want to add, sacrilege) of believing in "Intelligent Design", see Steven Den Beste's essay about the human eye.

http://denbeste.nu/essays/humaneye.shtml

The vertebrate retina is a terrible design. The optic nerve comes into the eyeball at a certain point, and the nerve fibers spread out across the surface of the retina. Each individual nerve fiber reaches its assigned point, burrows down into the retina through several layers of epithelial cells, and ends with the light receptor itself pointing away from the lens of the eye, which is the direction from which the light must come. As a result, incoming light strikes the surface of the retina and must penetrate through multiple layers of inactive cells and then through the body of the nerve itself before it reaches the active point where it might be detected. This both diffuses and attenuates the light, decreasing the efficiency of the retina in accomplishing its function.

For a rationalist and atheist like Steven Den Beste, extrapolating from the existence of the human eye to a "designer" is illogical, because there is no evidence for design but plenty evidence for evolution.

For me, personally, saying that the human eye has been "designed" is blasphemy. I do not think it is all right to claim that G-d would intentionally create a faulty design or was incapable of doing better. (Plus I agree with Steven's thinking as well. There is evidence for evolution in the human eye, but no evidence for design.)


But the problem here is not the fact that some people are not capable of understanding complicated science and are thus forced to make up fairy tales that make them believe that they are as clever as scientists (and even cleverer since scientists don't "know" the truth), but the fact that those some people sometimes have the power to take away knowledge from the rest of us.

There are MANY countries in the world where Creationism is taught instead of evolution. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the majority of the world teaches Creationism to some extent, replacing biology or "adding to" biology in schools.

But what does that do for those societies?

Are they leaders in science based on learning something that is a "theory" just like evolution and a "better "explanation?

It's not enough to change the rules to allow Creationism (or "Intelligent Design") to become science, because what is science is not a decision made by man. It's ultimately a desicion made by nature (or G-d, if you will). Because science is something we can use to create.

When we look at the world and compare societies, we see that countries that teach evolution create technologies, whereas countries that teach Creationism, do not have the workforce to be leading in any field of technology.

Teaching Creationism causes stupidity. That's the problem.

And it doesn't help if "Christian" fundamentalists in the west blame Islam for it and pretend that teaching "Christian" Creationism will give better results, because the Creationism of Islam IS the Creationism of Christianity. It's word for word, letter for letter the same legend.

And it's phony. It's phony and stupid and a big lie.

    * Why does the birth canal run through the middle of the pelvis?
    * Why does the backbone run down one side of the trunk instead of through the middle where it would be more balanced?
    * Why does the ankle attach at one end of the foot instead of in the middle?
    * Why are there toes?
    * Why is it that nearly every part of the brain is as far as possible from the piece of the body with which it is associated?
          o Why is the motor control center for the right side of the body on the left side of the brain, and vice versa?
          o Why is the vision center at the rear of the brain, as far from the eyes as possible -- and on the opposite sides?
    * Why is it that fully 90% of the genetic material we carry around is useless?
    * Why do we share a single canal through the neck through which we both breath and swallow?

Biology has explanations for these oddities. Creationism does not. "It was G-d's will" is not an explanation, it's an excuse for incompetence.

(Why are some people born with a mechanism that destroys the beta cells in the pancreas, causing Type 1 Diabetes that is ALWAYS deadly within a few months without treatment? Would an "intelligent designer" design his subjects like that?)

Richard Dawkins called evolution the "blind watchmaker" because evolution does not "see" what it produces, it merely tries out what happens with the stuff it finds. I find the term "incompetent designer" appropriate for a god who designs things like us. And I cannot pray to an incompetent designer. How could I?

Teaching Creationism has never helped a society and is bringing down many.

 

Dear Creationists,

I do not want the western world to become a second "Islamic" world.

Do you not understand that?

 

136,874 views 625 replies
Reply #301 Top

I have concluded that it is impossible for me to do any good here, because at the end of the day, people believe what they want to regardless.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm all in for voluntary stupidity. ;)

Reply #302 Top

'O Heavenly Father, I pray you spare us from those of your flock who fail to see the beauty of your creation, which is evolution.'

Really?  And he said he used Evolution? 

Well that's not what my bible says. 

Well, KFC, you're on your own now. I have concluded that it is impossible for me to do any good here, because at the end of the day, people believe what they want to regardless.

I know.  But I don't worry too much about it.  I have a "believe what you wish" mentality for the most part anyhow. Like you said..........thanks for giving it your best shot.  Answers in Genesis is awesome.  If you haven't gone to the Christian Museum it's a must.  They did a very nice job out there.  They got alot of flack and ridicule but they kept on going and got tons of support even in the midst of some mighty awful crap they had to take from the opposition.  And these guys are wondering why we are threatened?  Gimmie a break! 

 Are you familiar with Henry Morris?  He's dead now but he left behind an awfully lot of knowledge behind with all his writings.   In fact from what I understand he's the Christian equivalent to Darwin. 

In the light of eternity life here is just a vapor.  One minute after death when we are face to face with the creator. everything will make perfect sense.  As Paul said, we see but through a glass darkly.  Then it will be sparkling clear. 

Reply #303 Top

Really? And he said he used Evolution?

Absolutely.  Says so in a book I have on my shelf.  I believe the book is divinely inspired and is incontrovertable.  No amount of so-called 'evidence to the contrary' will sway me.

Reply #304 Top

I believe the book is divinely inspired and is incontrovertable. No amount of so-called 'evidence to the contrary' will sway me.

 

amen brother!

Reply #305 Top

Yeah, I actually went to the Creation Museum the day it opened, it was pretty cool, but some of the exhibits weren't finished (the staff was waiting for them to evolve, as one sign said, haha).

And yes, I have heard of Henry Morris, and my family owns several of his books, though I myself haven't actually read any of them.

Quoting Daiwa, reply 303
Absolutely.  Says so in a book I have on my shelf.  I believe the book is divinely inspired and is incontrovertable.  No amount of so-called 'evidence to the contrary' will sway me.

But is your book as historically accurate as the Bible, I wonder?

As for voluntary stupidity, that is what is required for the disproven hypothesis of macroevolution to hold any water.  Stupidity deludes itself into thinking it is smart.

The reason I know I'm not the deluded one is the fact that you and Leauki have tried to disprove creationism by using evolution as an example.  Allow me to explain myself so you'll understand, since you obviously didn't when I said this earlier.  You yourselves have said that evolution has nothing to do with how life began.  Creationism is only about how life began.  Logical conclusion: the points are not related and cannot prove each other wrong.  Second logical conclusion: only an idiot would ignore the first logical conclusion.  Observation: you have ignored the first logical conclusion.  Third logical conclusion: you are therefore an idiot.  Fourth logical conclusion: your stupidity has made you think you are right.

I apologize for not being politically correct.

I dunno though KFC, I may not actually be able to leave now that I'm in this.  I have a high dose of that "someone is wrong on the internet" mentality.  Plus I like to argue with people (a quote which I am sure will be misconstrued).

Reply #306 Top

But is your book as historically accurate as the Bible, I wonder?

I sincerely hope tht was sarcasm. If so, it is a bad idea to use sarcasm in a debate with creationists.

Reply #307 Top

Fourth logical conclusion: your stupidity has made you think you are right.

I may not actually be able to leave now that I'm in this. I have a high dose of that "someone is wrong on the internet" mentality. Plus I like to argue with people

Just keep the following in mind:

A very wise and pious man once said: "i never lost a debate with a rational debater and never won a debate with an irrational debater"

but if you like to continue for the sake of just arguing ... then have fun .... but don't expect any meaningful outcome ... it is useless ...

 

 

Reply #308 Top

I don't like to argue that much, haha.  I love that quote though, that is exactly what I meant.

And Taltamir, I am a creationist.  Perhaps you meant evolutionist?  And there is quite a bit of evidence that the Bible is historically accurate.  I, however, am not going to bother wasting my time to explain what evidence exists, because it is a waste of time, as ThinkAloud and I have both pointed out.

Reply #309 Top

The reason I know I'm not the deluded one is the fact that you and Leauki have tried to disprove creationism by using evolution as an example.

WrongO.  I haven't tried to 'disprove' creationism with anything, let alone evolution.  There is no physical evidence whatsoever to support the hypothesis/theory of creationism, so there is nothing to 'disprove.'  You either believe it, or you don't.  End of story.

And there is quite a bit of evidence that the Bible is historically accurate.

The historical inaccuracies/vagueness of the Bible overwhelm its 'accuracies' which are themselves couched in vague relativistic terms.  The Bible is a collection of stories/books written by a variety of human 'scholars' some of whom are unknown, in a variety of widely distributed geographic locations, over a period of hundreds (thousands?) of years, with unknown access to source material, all 'certified' by humans and culled, blessed & codified by a committee of humans in Constantinople, which tossed out a bunch of gospels as 'politically incorrect.'  And that was before translation into English.  That anyone can believe that the blenderized account which constitutes our English Bible is the 'literal word of God' amazes me.  Sure, real characters & events are described in the Bible, but to base a literal belief in the words of Genesis on that is a leap of faith, one you are welcome to take.  Claiming Genesis is 'science' is irrational.  Fortunately for you, faith doesn't require rationality.  Only science does.

Reply #310 Top

excellent analysis Daiwa.

and even if that was not the case, and if god actually did write the bible himself some thousands of years ago, than all the oral accounts and later translations and actual willful revisions (due to political correctness) should cast serious doubt on its accuracy, before you say that they were all perfect because gods wills it so, than how come there are so many versions of it?

its funny how you pretend it is an atheist lie despite being told by both atheists and religious men (who think) that it isn't. or maybe the religious men in here are just atheists pretending to be religious to cast doubt in your mind... or better yet, they are satan in disguise! (doh, and i was the one who said not to use sarcasm)

Reply #311 Top

When Leauki says creationism is a lie, and then proceeds to talk about evolution, I think it is logical to conclude that evolution is being used as an argument against creationism.  Although you're right - this assumes you're being logical.

I believe the time period that the Bible was written in was about 1400 years.

I never claimed Genesis was science.  I said it was history.  It would follow that science wouldn't try to disprove history.

However, I am not going to try to convince you of anything.  Feel free to present your evidence for an alternative for the origin of life, if you will.  After all, everything we know of came from somewhere.  You may choose to call it abiogenesis instead of evolution, but it is still a major plug of the evolutionary philosophy.

Or maybe the case is, from what I see of your 'prayers', that you believe God created basic life and that evolution took over from there.  Allow me to point out that this would make you 9/10th's creationist, and that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to just believe Genesis.

Reply #312 Top

Feel free to present your evidence for an alternative for the origin of life, if you will.

Quit changing the frikkin subject.  For the billionth time, evolution makes no claims about life's origins & I don't have to present evidence for any such thing.  Your circular reasoning is making my head spin/hurt.

I never claimed Genesis was science. I said it was history.

Good.  Then you accept that creationism has no business being taught in a science class.  But if creationism isn't based on Genesis, what is it's basis?

Reply #313 Top

Creationism, distilled to its basic level, is the idea that life was created by a higher power.  Therefore everything from scientology to Christianity is technically creationism, however in general creationists also believe that there are limits to how much evolution a species can undergo (genetic limits, nothing about "knowing when to stop").

As for accepting that creationism shouldn't be taught in science class, I notice that you conveniently left out the following sentence in your quote.  Science shouldn't be contradicting history, because if it is, then the science is in error.

And for the billionth time, creationism is about how life came to exist.  Therefore you do have to explain where you think life came from.  You can't just kill one theory and leave none to take its place.  If creationism isn't how life came about, then what is?  Answer that, and then maybe we can have a productive debate.

Reply #314 Top

Science can contradict history and has done so repeatedly throughout history (how's that for irony?).

creationists also believe that there are limits to how much evolution a species can undergo (genetic limits, nothing about "knowing when to stop").

On the basis of what?

Answer that, and then maybe we can have a productive debate.

Answer that, and I'll be rich & famous.  And a fraud.  We'll never 'know' - you either believe one thing or another on faith.

Reply #315 Top

When has science contradicted history?

Reply #316 Top

Creationism, distilled to its basic level, is the idea that life was created by a higher power.  Therefore everything from scientology to Christianity is technically creationism, however in general creationists also believe that there are limits to how much evolution a species can undergo (genetic limits, nothing about "knowing when to stop").

Ok, what are these "genetic limits" and how do they make evolution stop?

(You should read up on genetics to find out that genes store information. Hence "knowing when to stop" is exactly the information genes would store, if they could, but they cannot.)

 

As for accepting that creationism shouldn't be taught in science class, I notice that you conveniently left out the following sentence in your quote.  Science shouldn't be contradicting history, because if it is, then the science is in error.

What do you mean "science shouldn't be contradicting history"?

 

And for the billionth time, creationism is about how life came to exist.  Therefore you do have to explain where you think life came from.

What do you mean "for the billionth time"? That Creationism is about how life started has never been doubted.

And I don't have to explain where life comes from. For all I care G-d has created it.

But Creationism is _also_ about how life develops (or rather, how it doesn't). And that's where evolution comes in with an explanation that is better, is more useful and usable in engineering, works without a supernatural being that cannot be explained, and explains all the fossils.

 

Reply #317 Top

IQ POSTS:

Creationism, distilled to its basic level, is the idea that life was created by a higher power. Therefore everything from scientology to Christianity is technically creationism, however in general creationists also believe that there are limits to how much evolution a species can undergo (genetic limits, nothing about "knowing when to stop").

Well stated.

 

leauki posts:

Ok, what are these "genetic limits" and how do they make evolution stop?

(You should read up on genetics to find out that genes store information. Hence "knowing when to stop" is exactly the information genes would store, if they could, but they cannot.)

 

Do we have agreement that we've discovered the atoms of organic (living) matter must obey a certain set of pre-programmed rules? That organic matter is so complicated on the atomic level that even a single cell is more complex than all inorganic matter in the galaxy?

We know that in every living organism the information or program for how to reproduce is written in genes which in turn are certain specific combinations of DNA molecules. When these molecular programs gets messed with or changed, there is no gaining of higher genetic information...and that's why it's an impossibility for reptiles to "naturally evolve" into birds or apes to have "naturally evolved" into a human.

Naturalistic Evolution (change beyond "kind" aka macro-evolution) has failed to explain how inorganic matter became organic matter and the divergence of all life from a common ancestor. For that to have occurred, the natural gaining of truly higher genetic information  which was not possessed by one's ancestors would have had to be passed on. Let us not forget that there are obvious self evident philosophical arguments against naturalistic evolution such as the lesser cannot give rise to the greater, and nothing can give what it does not have.

Creationism provides a coherent explanation of what constitutes living matter and how it all came to be which history and true science supports.  Creationism understands that nature isn't its own inherent life force..rather the Creator has impressed complex information into the cells which can reproduce and pass on only certain information to the next generation.

Although not in scientific terms, the Holy Bible unambiguously states that God took inorganic material from the earth and created our bodies and breathed life into our soul. He accomplished the diversity of creation. The Bible tells us that creation went on in time, yom...and in this way we can keep all the important features of evolution (small change within kind) in complete harmony with Genesis. Each new individual creation can be imagined as based upon an existing one.  New original species came into being with complete suddeness and complete with all the features that characterizes them.

Life, in the atomic level, undeniably bears the signs of a Creator, unknowable to us.  

 

 

 

Reply #318 Top

When these molecular programs gets messed with or changed, there is no gaining of higher genetic information...and that's why it's an impossibility for reptiles to "naturally evolve" into birds or apes to have "naturally evolved" into a human.

That's where you slip off the rails.  Genetic changes can be either beneficial or detrimental to an organism in a given environment, not 'higher.'

Reply #319 Top

Quoting Leauki, reply 316
Ok, what are these "genetic limits" and how do they make evolution stop?

(You should read up on genetics to find out that genes store information. Hence "knowing when to stop" is exactly the information genes would store, if they could, but they cannot.)

Genetic limits = lack of information.  As Lulapilgrim said, one kind of creature or organism cannot evolve into another (i.e. a reptile will always be a reptile) because the reptile doesn't have the genetic code necessary for the change.  A reptile has no genetic code for hollow bones, wings, etc.  In order for that change to be made, information must be provided.  Assuming there is no supreme God, only random mistakes in gene copying and/or mutations can create this information.  This is where the probabilities I mentioned earlier come in.  The point of the probabilities is to show that this is impossible, or if it is possible, that it would have taken far longer than the currently accepted length of time (2 billion years, I think).

Let's use a mole for an example, a mole which is going to evolve an eye.  In my post on probabilities (page 18), I listed that a partial probability of getting the right combination for an eye at 1 in 2.24 x 10^168.  If evolution were to try 10,000 of these possibilities per second (!!), it would take roughly 7.1 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years to get the right one (count them, that's 13 trillions, or 7.1 x 10^156).  Also remember that this isn't even the whole eye.  I think its safe to say that you and I will never see a mole with an eye like ours.

Of course, that extreme age itself also poses problems.  Scientists have been aware for years that the universe has been expanding at a given rate, and that is part of the reason they haven't gone past 2 billion years (to my knowledge).  If the universe had been expanding at its current rate for 7.1 x 10^156 years, think about how much larger it would be compared to expanding for a measly 2 billion.

So when you say that probabilities have nothing to do with evolution, you're just fooling yourself.  I believe that answers your first question, Leauki.  As for your last two, just read a few posts earlier and you'll see what I meant.  I have to ask though, if you don't care about how life came about, then why did you start this topic to try and disprove creationism?

Daiwa, when Lulapilgrim says "higher," it is synonymous with "beneficial."  Organisms with greater natural abilities are generally considered to be superior, or "higher," than those without.

Reply #320 Top

if it is possible, that it would have taken far longer than the currently accepted length of time (2 billion years, I think)

This is where you, too, slip off the rails.  It has already happened.  Facts trump statistical estimates based on false assumptions.

I think its safe to say that you and I will never see a mole with an eye like ours.

Since the mole evolved in an environment in which an eye offers no survival benefit, I think you're safe there, too.

Reply #321 Top

Let's use a mole for an example, a mole which is going to evolve an eye.  In my post on probabilities (page 18), I listed that a partial probability of getting the right combination for an eye at 1 in 2.24 x 10^168.

Evolving an eye takes hundreds of thousands of years. Your probability seems to be for a single point in time. Can you recalculate for a hundred thousand years' worth of generations in each of which the best-working eye will continue while the others die out?

Your explanation about genetic limits is nonsense. Please make up another one. It needs to explain why mutations would stop.

 

Reply #322 Top

Creationism provides a coherent explanation 

Creationism explains NOTHING.

It merely takes all the perceived probabilities and combines them into one big unlikely thing, the god of malaria.

Creationism is as good an "explanation" as "Smurfs did it".

 

Reply #323 Top

Quoting Daiwa, reply 320
This is where you, too, slip off the rails.  It has already happened.  Facts trump statistical estimates based on false assumptions.

Oh, of course, I forgot.  It already happened.  How silly of me!

Fine.  If you don't like my probabilites on why evolution would "stop" then look at this link:

http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_species_02.html

For the sake of an argument I've been calling those variations within a species 'microevolution', since that is what it is classified as, when in fact it isn't evolution at all.  Hence the quotes around "stop," since you can't stop something that never started.

EDIT: Leauki, my post on probabilities on page 18 explained why I was assuming a single point in time.  Natural selection would immediately discard anything that didn't immediately work, so all the necessary components would have to be present all at once.

Reply #324 Top

Genetic limits = lack of information... <details>...

I figured it out! (watching some creationist propaganda videos helped too)

Evolution:

1. there are genes (inhertable traits)

2. copying genes can be done inaccurately from one generation to the next, causing a change in genes.

3. more suitable genes allow a creature to survive, and thus are more likely to be passed on.

4. statistically the above means most species will have their genes change over time to suit their environment, however they would be rare exception, thats how statistics work)

Creationists do not beleive in #2. They say it is impossible for a mistake during gene copy to occur and create an antirely new gene. Despite it being easily observed in a lab (and in nature), they claim that all genes already exist and new genes occur, and they are just mixed and matched. (aka, their beloved psudeo science of micro evolution).

Also, they cling to "missing links" (despite those having been found decades ago). And other "irregularities in the theory" from the 1800s that have long since been solved.

Reply #325 Top

Leauki, my post on probabilities on page 18 explained why I was assuming a single point in time.  

You can assume what you want, but in reality time moves forward and evolution makes claims about changes in time. This is why demands for one species "changing into another" are nonsense. Evolution doesn't make the claim that that is possible.

I agree with you that single improbable events cannot be used to prove anything, which is why I reject Creationism, which relies on the improbable entity called a god.

So if you want to make a point about evolution and probability, you will have to take time into account. But I warn you, several generations increase the numbers of possible branches at a far greater rate than you and I expect it. It's difficult for a human to grasp exponential growth, or the concept of deep time.