True that!

Halcyon before refit would make a little more or less sense when you think about it. If your going to put it in the row with the other frigates it, wouldn't logically fit(Mako, Frigate, Halcyon Cruiser. I agree with that because I realized that if you put a powerful ship like the destroyer as a starter ship, its going to get spammed from the start of the game.

I think I got what ships are what or where or whatever you want to call it

Frigates: Mako corvette, Frigate, Halcyon, Destroyer, Prowler(maybe), colony ship

Cruisers: normal carrier, Re-arming freighter, Prowler(maybe), fan-made heavy cruiser

Capital ships(and their TEC equivilants): Halcyon refit/KOL, SuperCarrier/Sova, Refit colony ship(like SoF)/Akkan, Mobile Repair station(like Cradle)/Dunov, Marathon/Marza

I hope some of this makes sense  

I highly doubt nukes would have that large of a blast radius. Don't forget that this is space, not in atmosphere. Most of a nukes destructive capability comes from the shockwave it produces. But it wouldn't produce a shockwave in space. So in space a nukes strength is soley dependent on how big of a boom it makes. So a nuke would, in your scenerio take out like 5 ships, and that's not even killing them, just removing/weakening their shields. It also takes a while because it has to travel, and aswell has a shorter range then a MAC.

Since MAC's fire projectiles are super high speeds, that slug can just go on forever, and travel the battleground in sins in like a second. However a nuke would travel like a normal missile, and so is drasticly slower, and so would have a shorter distance. Further more, depending on the UNSC and the covie ship, a single MAC round can bring down the shields around the affected area, allowing the second MAC round to rip right through the hull. Since if memory serves, covie ships were strong in shields, no armor.

You would have to launch atleast two nukes to get a covie kill, but like I said since they're much slower, and would have to be able to be shot at the "ground" and not need to be shot at a ship. (Like in most area of affect abilities, think the ion cannon from Command and Conqure, only in nuke form, and in space lol.) More then likely, the covies would see you launch the nuke, and spread out their ships, so you only hit two of their ships, if you're lucky. But since MAC's are direct-hit weapons, it'd be hard as hell to avoid them, considering you'd be hit before you could even select your ships.

So in conclusion, it takes two nukes to kill a covie ship, and two macs to kill it (Going on simple terms). MAC's can hit the enemy almost instantly, a nuke needs to travel. A MAC can bring down the shield on a single enemy ship, a nuke can bring down the shields on several enemy ships (If they're clumped). Over all, I'd say MAC's would be the more devestating of the two abilities, unless your opponent is a bloody retard who keeps his fleet clumped together like a ball.

P.S. Tom, I like that list, only I'd move the Halcyon to the cruiser list. Make it be like the LRM's, low level cruisers that you can research almost immediately. So the very very starter fleets would be made up of Mako's and Frigates.

Also, I realized something while looking at halopedia, there's two distinctly differant frigates. In Amber Clad and Forward unto Dawn. If you look at them closely there's several differances. Forward Unto Dawn has a very large cargo bay at it's belly that Amber doesn't have. Forward unto dawn also has "wings" at it's back while Amber simply has giant blocks. Also, Amber is WAY more blocky and rigid then the Dawn. So perhaps you could make two models, one could be a "Heavy Frigate" the other could be a normal frigate. Like Amber would be the normal type of frigate, while the Dawn would be the heavy frigate. As a heavy frigate it might have a few more missile pods, heavier armor, capable of carrying a fighter squadron? (It does have that giant ass cargo bay after all). Just an idea to help fill the ranks with ships.

In Amber Clad - http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/7/72/Frigate_3.jpg

Forward Unto Dawn - http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/1/1e/Forward_into_dawn.jpg

Nice observation! This helps big. Move the Halcyon to the cruiser list, prowler to the frigate list, and add the heavy frigate to the frigate list.

It should look like this:
Frigates: Mako corvette, Frigate, Heavy Frigate, Destroyer, Prowler, colony ship

Cruisers: normal carrier, Re-arming freighter, Halcyon, fan-made heavy cruiser

Capital ships(and their TEC equivilants): Halcyon refit/KOL, SuperCarrier/Sova, Refit colony ship(like SoF)/Akkan, Mobile Repair station(like Cradle)/Dunov, Marathon/Marza

The list follows the 6/4/5 pattern.

For the fan-made heavy cruiser, I think a Heavy Cruiser with the weapons of a covenant ship would be perty sweet. Kinda like an experimental ship, weaker tech than what is being reverse-engineered from.

Hope this helps even more  

The fact that MAC's are a direct hit weapon make them actually easy to avoid as they have a linear unchangeable trajectory. Also why does the Nuke range have to be short? its a missile meaning it can change course and such. Also we're talking about weapons stronger then todays, the best thermo nuclear weapon we have today has an actual blast radius of about 2-5 miles, havok and shiva warheads probably have around a 200-400 mile blast radius at the lower end. For reference look up the Tunguska event which is estimated at 5-30 megatons (HAVOK being a 30 megaton nuke)

In addition a nuke because of its EMP abilities would knock out ANY shields within close range no if ands or buts about it, the only time it would take more then one is when at moderate range from the blast where the EMP is not present.

Again though, there is more limiting factor mentioned on nukes in all halo references then there is to MAC weaponry. If MACs concern you so much then perhaps just increasing their cool down times.

Im looking ahead and trying to supply covenant ship ideas for the modders with skill on the thread. Its just a rough draft so . . .

Frigates: Frigate, Heavy Frigate, Destroyer, Stealth Corvette, Fan-made frigate, Colony ship

Crusiers: Carrier, Re-arming freighter, Light cruiser, Cruiser

Capital ships(using TEC as a bad equivilant: CCS-class Batle Cruiser(Kol), Assault Carrier(Marza), Supercarrier(Sova), Supercruiser(Dunov), Armored Agricultural Supportship[Like Infinite Succor](Akkan)

I know the uses for the capital ships are . . . bad, but I didn't have a wide variety of ships:WWW Link. So if you think you can come up with a better list, please do.

The reason MAC's would be harder to evade, and have a longer range, is because of the thrust they have. "A MAC typically fires slugs of either ferric tungsten or depleted uranium slugs at 0.4/10 of the speed of light." Now I don't know about you, but that's pretty fast. Certainly much faster then any missile. Ingame it'd be a pretty much the second you click your target, it gets hit type ability. Only possibly way you could avoid it is if you were on the other side of the gravity well, and knew it was comming. However a nuke is a missile, and a missile will take time to travel. The covenant ships could scatter, so only one gets hit by the nuke.

Also, a Shiva only only deplete a covenant ships shields, it can't do hull damage. That's why it REQUIRES two nukes to destroy a covenant ship, unlike MAC's that can destroy a ship with one hit (Depending on the MAC and the enemy ship). Further more, the reason nukes have such great blast radius' is because, like I said, they're in atmosphere. The force of the explosion creates a massive shockwave, it's the shockwave that does the most damage. In space there's no shockwave, ONLY the blast itself will do the damage. And the blast is NOT 2-5 miles. Over all, a MAC can't be dodged unless you're god, it does shield AND hull damage, and can outright destroy an enemy ship. A nuke is easily avoided, and easily shot down. Further more a single nuke can't destroy a ship, or even harm it's hull, it can only do shield damage.

MAC's are the superior weapon, so they deserve the ammo slot. Nukes would be the ones with the 90 second cooldown and no AM cost, MAC's would be the ones with the 30 or 40 second cooldown, and cost anti-matter. The more tacticly usefull weapon gets the ammo.

Yes that is one of the reasons I'm making Shiva Nukes reliant on Anti-matter and also on a timer. The won't have a huge blast radius but somethign like 3000 meters or whatever the in-game mesurement units are. And for a good Microing player, a lone destroyer can defeat a Covenant Destroyer and 2 Frigates. Look up the "Keyes Loop."

Your plan above though is assuming that covenant dont fight back really. A few pulse laser bursts or Plasma Torpedos can uttlerly destroy a UNSC Frigate.

A nuke would not have much of an EMP effect, the EMP effect is caused by the nuke acting on the earths magnetic field.

A good analysis, but with holes.
First off you talk ONLY about the SMAC weaponry, which travels at 119,916,983 meters per second or 119,917 km per second, or 9.4 earth distances per second. Yes thats fast but once you start talking distance in space its another story. For instance, that shell would take approx 3.2 seconds to reach the moon from earth. While its still difficult to dodge at that speed we need to move to normal MAC weaponry which is around 30,000-100,000 meters per second (30k is the norm circa 2525, 100k is estimation for advancements over 27 years). (30-100 km per second)which would take nearly 6 minutes and 30 seconds to reach the moon from earth, and in my opinion thats more then enough time to dodge even if that distance was cut into a forth which gives well over a minute to move the ship away from the trajectory.

Also i suggest you look up information on blast radii of weaponry and how they function in space. They have their core detonation as well as a slightly smaller but still evident fireball. While these are considered to nearly dissipate compared to an in atmosphere explosion they still propel more then enough of an electromagnetic pulse to knock out ships and shields as well as far higher amounts of thermo-nuclear radiation then even evident in ground explosions.

Also it takes more then one, sometimes up to FOUR MAC rounds to damage a covenant ship if we take this to the extream. Meanwhile two nukes in quick succession will destroy most if not all covenant ships within a couple miles of the blast. In addition we can almost fairly assume that shiva and havok warheads have been adapted for effective use in space so that their damage radii would be larger then weapons we currently deploy for simulated ground engagements.

Also as you said, the more tactically useful weapon gets the ammo, that sir is the nuke. If you dont believe me find me at least two passages in the halo books that prove their tactical use over that of the use of nukes because i know i can find two in FoR alone that gave humans a decisive edge over covenant forces using nukes in space.

EDIT as to a reply stating the EMP is from the earths atmosphere this is true but it relates to the magnetization of ion partials given off by the explosion. Should any strong magnetic forces be present the EMP effect is still valid. Considering BOTH human and covenant ships use magnetic coils to power their weapons i believe this effect would still occur to some level. In addition, there is extra magnetic forces in space all the time traveling with solar wind and in spacial anomalies, far too much to rule it out completely.

Double EDIT
Again, they do fight back, this is considering both ships enter the well at the same time and begin to close ranks. The missiles can out run the ship. Pulse lasers dont have the range of a MAC, the torpedoes do but in the encounter around chi ceti 4 a covenant frigate didnt even surmise the idea until it realised it was really under threat.
So my assumption is that the covenant ships would move in close knowing they could take a few MAC rounds or missile hits and not anticipating the nukes. Before they know it they where hit far harder then they expected. While the humans might lose their ships the covenant would lose more or at least be damaged far more then they ever expected.
Also the problem with the Key's loop is that it relies on enemy fire power to hit its own ship. Without that id say if it was a destroyer THEN two frigates it could still be done, but a destroyer + two frigates might be a bit much.

Yes but the magnetic coils used by the mac and plasma weapons are buried within the ship (well under the hull any way) and probably shielded to prevent damage from the magnetic field to other systems and are not generating a field all the time. Magnetic fields in space are so so weak that the are nothing when compared to earths.

Maico, your arguement is full of assumptions and guesses. First of all, that quote I gave was talking about MAC's, NOT SMAC's. If it was talking about a SMAC, it would have said SMAC. So a MAC round fired by a frigate, could reach the moon in 3.2 seconds? And how long would it take for a nuke to reach the moon?

As for your nuke thing, the blast radius is excedingly small in space when compared to an in-atmosphere detonation. Furthermore, you assume the shields wouldn't block out the radiation, and that the hull wouldn't block it. And you fruther assume the shields aren't resistant to an EMP affect. Last time I checked, covenant shields were plasma, and I'm not very good at science, but EMP's affect electronics, NOT plasma. So I see no reason why an EMP would knock out a covenant ships shields.

Also, it depends on the MAC, and the covenant ship. A SMAC can destroy an entire battlecruiser in one hit. I think a Marathons MAC can one-hit kill a covenant frigate. So it all depends on the size of the MAC, and strength of the enemy ship. Furthermore, a nuke does NOT have a multi-mile blast radius in space. That blast radius comes from the shockwave the nuke produces, NOT the explosion itself.

Half of the reasons you give for the nuke being superior, are assumptions. You ASSUME the nuke has such a large blast radius, you ASSUME the EMP would damage the covenant ships. While my arguements for the MAC are based on canon information. Also, I believe an EMP simply shuts down electronic devices. All that would mean is a covenant couldn't guide it's plasma torpedos, it could still fight just fine.

So really, a nuke's strength comes from it's blast radius and as I stated, that's not that large in space. Furthermore, I'm looking it up right now and it says a covenant frigate's shields can withstand a nuke, a frigate, the loweliest ship the covenant have, can withstand a single nuke. Consequently, it can only withstand a single MAC aswell. So I don't see how a Nuke is any more powerfull then a MAC if both of them can't one-hit kill a single ship.

hey fife thanks for the ideas for the covenant ship, I was wondering what do to do about them

Perhaps covenant weaponry but UNSC weaponry has no shielding which is why the pillar of autumns least defended vector is along the MAC rails line.

Also you must realize the magnetic forces in space are only like that here given what we can see. Spacial anomalies and even nearby asteroids with iron centers could add to a possible EMP. In addition other areas of our galaxy there maybe more or even less magnetic forces in space then we know about from earth, in fact there have been these occurances from some stars or even star "hatcheries". Some of these so large they could end life as we know it because the magnetic force would disrupt even the electrical pulses in our bodies if they had happened close enough to earth.
In addition there is always the possibility that UNSC weapons have been conditioned for this specific use in space as it would not only destroy a large portion of a rebel base but also cause extreme damage to their communication systems in the outlying areas.

Maico, as usual, all of your arguement is about assumptions. "It could have spacial anomalies" "It could be near asteroids with iron cores" "The area in space might have magnetic forces". None of that affects gameplay, there are no "mights" or "maybes" when it comes to weapon strengths. On it's own a nukes EMP blast damaging Covie ships is not only illogical, but unfounded. Nowhere has it once stated that the EMP blast by a Shiva damaged a covenant ship. So in gameplay, all the nuke would do, is go boom and hurt the ships in it's area of influence.

The nuke is slower then the MAC, can be shot down by fighters or point defense systems, has a limited blast radius, and can't even do hull damage. Whereas the MAC travels to it's target in seconds, instead of minutes, can't be shot down, and not only rips through a covenant ships shields, but does some hull damage. Nothing you say can justify that the nuke is superior weapon, atleast nothing true to the series. All of your arguements for the nuke being better are based on assumptions and opinion, not Halo canon.

I assume this based off of evidence however. You assume based off of misguided facts.

In addition your making your own assumptions, have you noted ANY references for your information? Because i know i have and could if you have any questions.
Where does it say covenant shields are plasma?
Also if a covenant ship can guide its plasma torpedoes then an EMP can hit its shields because they work both ways. They keep damage out AND in, again i can reference a page number and book if you wish.

If your talking about normal MAC's then you have your numbers wrong, a frigate MAC round DOES NOT move at .4 the speed of light only SMAC rounds do.





Another thing you seem to have completely forgotten is that a nuke is a MISSILE. Sure it may only move at 1/10th the speed of a ship based MAC round but it can be guided and have its trajectory CHANGED. It can be laid in wait as a trap or used via a longsword fighter.

Also the NOVA bomb (aka planet cracker) employed by the UNSC used 9 warheads and had a detonation strong enough to whipe out a fleet of nearly 300 covenant ships, fragment a moon and scorch half a planet from an orbital position. While its set up did extend its yeild i don think we are to take these nukes so lightly.

We dont know what kind of power systems the covenant employ either, while an EMP shuts down all currently known human systems it may simply disable them for a short time on covenant based ships. THAT i will admit is an assumption.

Only a few metals can slow radioactive particals. Your assuming yourself that covenant ships can in fact repel these particals.

So lets see here,
Im 100% certain the EMP WOULD travel through covenant shields
Im about 80% certain the nukes would have enough blast radii to damage a large area.

And in relation to your argument about cov frigates, it also is evident via the books that almost all covenant ships can survive a nuke and just lose their shields unless they are outside the blast range in which case it can shrug it off with little if any damage.
How can i put this... In a fight between a Frigate and say, CCS class battle cruiser
A MAC round is like a shot from the BR, it takes 3 hits to take shields down and then damage can be done with anywhere from 1-4 killing the ship or in my metaphor another player.
A Shiva warhead is more like say a plasma pistol at full charge, removes the shields completely. Then another would be like the resulting melee at close range which would kill the opponent.

Finally, your currently just trying to discredit the nuke while adding no strength to your own argument.
Im saying from what ive read in the books which are cannon the nuke has appeared multiple times as the more tactical option which again, you said yourself is the one that should rely on anti-matter.

EDIT


Nuke slower then MAC - TRUE

MAC takes seconds to travel - ALL weaponry does, its the type of MAC that determines how many seconds, and sometimes when using ship based MAC systems those seconds add up to minutes

Nukes can be shot down - TRUE however in all engagements they went unnoticed by the covenant

Nukes cant do hull damage - FALSE there are examples in book about vaporization of ships within blast radii of nuclear weaponry

MAC's cant be shot down - FALSE a MAC round is made of metal which covenant plasma weaponry has constantly proven can be quickly and easily melted through.

As for all spacial anomalies heres a little news, we live in a VERY selective and unique environment here in the Sol system. MOST other areas are filled with anomalies and have nearby systems that would wreak havok on earth be it placed in that area. We are in one of say approx 500,000 habitable planets, most others have far different surrounding anomalies then our own including binary star systems, different types of stars, other sets of asteroids or comets, different surrounding planetary bodies including but not limited to large iron core bodies like earth and mars to the extreme hot gas planets which are hotter then even some of the cooler stars.

With the odds of one or more of these anomalies appearing its illogical to rule them all out completely based on the immensely tiny section of the galaxy let alone universe in which we humans reside. So yes i make some assumptions, but thats because they're there in far greater numbers then even a 50 50 possibility, probably closer to a 90/10 or 95/5 possibility.

If everyone doesnt mind. I'm going to start a new thread of my own on this topics with a full lits of ideas and ship at the top post.

I've been trying to think of a name for this Mod and I've come up with nothign too particularly good. Possibly something like: Rampant Horizons. lol

Please don't.

I have been using Halopedia for my source, since I'm not inclined to re-read the books for the facts. I'm taking my facts off of what has been put on halopedia, and what's been put on halopedia has been taken from all canon Halo sources, such as the games and books. You haven't noted sources either, and you hadn't asked for them either.

Also, it says on Halopedia that Covenant shields are probably plasma, as all of their other energy-based items are plasma based, which makes sense. It certainly isn't a laser field. Furthermore, the covenant ships need to lower their shields to fire their weapon, so the magnetic guiding system used on the torpedo's CAN'T go through the shield, that would mean, by your standards, an EMP couldn't pass through the shield either.

And finally, my source simply said MAC, it didn't specify whether it was ship-mounted or a SMAC.

It doesn't matter if the missile can change trajectory, if it takes several minutes to reach it's target the enemy ships can simply scatter, so at most only one ship is affected by the blast radius. Only way a nuke could be viable is if it was left as a mine, and detonated when the enemy got near it. If fired at the enemy, it would be almost useless since like I said, it'd take minutes for it to reach them, and by then they've scattered.

Nova bombs were also FAR more powerfull then ANY Shiva warhead and isn't even comprised of nine Shiva's like you hinted to. The warheads used in a Nova are nothing like a Shiva, and so can't be compared.

Also, as I showed earlier, the magnetic force used to guide the torpedo can't pass through the shield, hence why the shield must be lowered, so I seriously doubt an EMP could pass through the shields and do any sort of harm to the systems. And you're right, I was assuming, however I said I assumed the armor would stop the radiation.

The nukes would have a large blast radius, I never said they wouldn't. I said they wouldn't have a multi-mile large blast radius when detonated in space. Your summery is accurate, but that is in a 1v1 situation, and assuming the covenant ship isn't within fireing range. That's also assuming the nuke isn't shotdown, which at it's slow speed and accuracy of covenant weapons, is highly unlikely. I don't recall a nuke ever being usefull when fired at the covenant, however I do know they were quite usefull as mines.

I'll label your final points in numbers.

1: Indeed it is, far slower.
2: Incorrect, modern day missiles take minutes just to go from one side of the earth to the other, assuming rocketry has progressed, it would still take minutes for the nuclear missile to traverse the same distance a MAC could traverse in seconds.
3: They were unnotice because they were never actually fired at the covenant. Nukes were used as mines, not missiles, because as missiles they wouldn't work, they were too easy to avoid and shoot down.
4: I said a nuke couldn't do hull damage on it's own and it can't. The nuke removes the shields, but doesn't do any hull damage. A second nuke is required to inflict the hull damage. Whereas MAC's do both hull and shield damage on a single round (depending).
5: By my "MAC's can't be shot down" statement, I meant they simply move too fast. Sure if the covenant weapons actually hit the thing, it could be shot down. But try shooting down a bullet with another bullet, you aren't going to do it, it simply moves too fast. So the covenant would never shoot down a MAC round.

Unless you're some kind of coding genious, and can code in all those spacial anomalies and crap into the game, I couldn't care less. I said those things couldn't be put ingame, and couldn't affect gameplay. I never disputed their existance in real life, only a fool would do that. I disputed their relevence to the arguement at hand, as they wont be put ingame (atleast not accuretly) and will serve no purpose ingame, and so should serve no purpose here.


Edit: That would make sense Acolyte, this thread seems to be more on the debate of how Halo abilities should be implimented ingame, and not on the mod itself. A thread dedicated to the actual WIP mod would be good, and might help draw attention to it.

Ok lets see here.
Covenant shields as plasma is an assumption since you seem so keen on pointing out all my assumptions.
Also yes they open to release the plasma because if they didnt then the plasma would burst on the inside damaging the ship and lowering shields, it still guides the projectile itself long after closing the shield back up. This is fact based off of the books because the spartans use this small window of time to enter the ship, while on the other hand durring battles these torpedoes have tracked their targets far after that window of time would have closed thus completing a full shield circuit meaning that the EMP could get through the shields of the ship.

If you goto halo wikia and search MAC, it will come up with this artical:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/MAC
Look it up then get back to me.

If the missiles move at the speed they should to be effective which we will have to assume that they do or else even archer missiles would be useless on ships because the ship would be traveling faster then the missile then we know that it moves at a slower but still effective speed to be a viable weapon.

Also Durring the battle at reach there is no specification of using nukes as mines and it would be very unlikely that good mine laying would have been easy to do accuractly beforehand leading me to guess that they were placed after the covenant attack started.

Also you contradict yourself.

Let me lay out two scenarios for ya one with nukes MAC's and Missiles, then one with no nukes and a few more MAC's.

1. 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC destroyers
As they approach the UNSC destroyers fire all 40 of their MAC guns (we'll assume they ALL hit) Covenant shields drop, maybe minor damage.
At the same time the destroyers fire hitting them with 40 pulse lasers and 40 plasma torpedoes.
Lets assume the destroyers get lucky and fire off their full salvos of archer missile pods.
The battle is over now as all UNSC destroyers are enevitably either dead in space or just vaporized. Meanwhile maybe a few of the covenant destroyers are dead in space or destroyed, but for the most part at least 7-10 would be left with enough structural integrity to pilot themselves. And thats if the UNSC forces got lucky.

2. 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC heavy frigates
Longsword fighters are send out to engage enemy ships, meanwhile 5 nukes (more then enough to effect these 20 ships as only 4 are used on the fleet that attacked reach) are launched into the cov ships path (using your trap scenario)
The nukes go off lowering all their shields and leaving them temporaraly dazed from the blast, the frigates fire their MACs and full salvo of missiles to hit right afterward.
The covenant get lucky and fire off 40 plasma torpedoes before getting hit.
Around 5 covenant ships (small estimate) get disabled or destroyed in the first attack.
Five frigates survive to charge and fire their MACs again finishing off 5 more destroyers which are already heavily wounded. Durring the charge they also fire off the last of their warheads, assuming that at least 1 wasnt one that fired a nuke initially.
The battle ends and the space is left with debris floating everywhere. While no ships survived the tonnage gets calculated out to a UNSC victory by damage done.

These assumed space battles put the nukes at their weakest and MACs at their strongest based on the arguements you try to make. More MAC's prove less tactical then less MACs + nukes.

EDIT
After seeing that the covenant carrier which is the same approx size as the covenant destroyer having hull resistance of up to 100 archer missiles, AND considering that a frigate has 780 archer missiles (26 pods of 30 missiles each) there is no doubt that the UNSC forces here would fly away unscathed. Completely out of missiles but unscathed none the less.

Okay I could not be bothered to read the rant on plasma shields so if i miss something sorry. A nuke could damage hull by simply boiling it away in the way covenant high energy plasma. Also a EMP is created when gamma rays release high energy electrons that interact wit the earth s magnetic field to induces a high voltage current that can be conduct by large metal object then damaging electronic devices. Space doesn't conduct the voltage the hull of ships are protected against beta radiation(also known as high energy electrons and gamma rays. Sorry if this is a rant.

Also they are singularly referred to as energy shields who said plasma plasma would be a bit of a burner self harm shield

sorry for another post but i cant edit the other one i wonder if these links while help not sure if you have already found them.

WWW Link

WWW Link

Indeed the shields are an assumption, I never said they weren't. Infact the very evidence I gave stated as such. But since no specification has ever been given, and plasma is the only source of energy the covenant use, it stands to reason their shields would be plasma.

Also, tell me where it says the shield goes back up. I don't remember that part of the book, and since you seem to like seeing sources, you should be able to give me it aswell. And "In the book" doesn't count.

As for the MAC, that page is where I pulled my quote from. Go read it for yourself, it doesn't specify one way or the other Until later, so it contradicts itself and is thus at the discretion of the reader. I chose to believe ALL MACs fire at that speed since if they fired slower, not only wouldn't they do enough damage, they'd also be a pointless weapon.

The missile can still move faster then a ship, and take several minutes to reach the enemy. Ships don't travel across the solar system in five minutes you know. A missile for them would probably go from one side of the earth to the other in a minute (Last I checked modern ICBM's take 6 minutes to accomplish that, so that's a pretty nice advancement for 500 years, considering I doubt rocketry was their main prioity once they achieved space flight.)

And just cuz they're used as mines, doesn't mean they need to be placed there before the battle. Once the covenant were detected, the ships can just drop shiva warheads as they fly, so during the skirmish they drop the nuclear warheads and later on in the battle they detonated. Still mines though.

And I didn't contradict myself. The blast radius in atmosphere is much larger because it extends far beyond the initial blast. I suppose I coulda chosen my words better, but the shockwave can still be classified as a blast. However in space that shockwave isn't present, so the only stopping power comes from the explosion itself, which is drasticly smaller to the overall radius when you include the shockwave.

Your battles weren't accurate, I'll re-do them for you.
1: 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC destroyers.
Each destroyer fires their MAC's at each destroyer, the two MAC's bring all of the Destroyers shields down. The UNSC ships immediately launched a barrage of missiles. All of the missiles impact the Destroyers and the mass ammoutns of archer missiles destroy the ships. However before being destroyer, the 20 covenant ships fired off a salvo of plasma torpedos. In the end all 40 ships are destroyed.

2: 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC heavy frigates
The heavy frigates launch a salvo of nukes at the enemy ships, the covenant destroyers shoot them all down before they get within range to detonate. The UNSC ships fire all 20 of their macs, focusing two frigates per destroyer so they can bring down the shields on 10 of the destroyers. By this time all 20 destroyers fired their plasma torpedos so 40 torpedos descend on the frigates. The frigates in return launch another salvo of nukes with dozens of archer missiles before being destroyed by the plasma torpedos. The archer missiles help hide the nukes and so the nukes manage to break through, destroying the 10 un-shielded destroyers and damaging the 10 shielded ones.

The reason the frigates won in your scenerio is because you didn't take into account that the covenant would shoot them down. If the frigates had not launched the nukes, and instead layed them, that'd be differant. But since the nukes were fired they were detected by the covenant and shot down, giving the covenant enough time to fire off their plasma torpedos and kill the frigates. Only possible way a nuke could reach the enemy, is if protected by a horde of archer missiles, like I showed.

In both cases, the UNSC lose terribly, however since the destroyers had 40 MAC's, they were able to take out the covie forces. If the frigates had launched a barrage of archers and nukes in the begining, they might have won. Depends on whether or not the covie ships were near eachother, or if they scattered. Either way, having MAC is more helpfull then having a nuke.


Edit: I read up on the shields, and allthough they are called energy shields, it doesn't specify what KIND of energy. And since shield tech isn't specified, and the covenant use so many plasma devices, it's reasonably safe to assume that their shields would be plasma aswell. And if humans in our day and age can have plasma around an object without doing it harm, I'm sure the covenant could aswell lol

Do you know what plasma is?

WWW Link

There is hot plasma and cold plasma, currently there is technology for a plasma window which uses cold plasma, if you want to see hot plasma put a grape under a cup in the microwave... on second thought you might kill yourself doing that so dont



The shields on their ships work exactly as S117 and elite shields do. In the case of the battle at Chi Ceti 4 starting on page 102 of The Fall of Reach the Commonwelth attacks the covenant frigate with a barrage of 180 archer missiles, 90 are shot down or miss entirely. Shields remain up. After a couple seconds of astonishment they fire a MAC round. This in lue with missiles punctures the shield slightly damaging the ship slightly. Then after waiting for the MAC to recharge they fire again (page 109)keep in mind that the shields have already fallen once "The MAC round struck the covenant vessel amidships. Its shield simmered and bubbled... then dissapeared."

As for that site i gave you to look at try looking under types instead of just ammunition.

Also in your simulation using nukes you left out entirely the long sword fighters which frigates carry and were used to hide the first nukes. Unlike destroyers who give up their fighters for the extra armor and MAC gun frigates still hold at least 3 each.
Another thing you forget is that the tonnage of frigates and destroyers mean that the greatest loss ratio was STILL with the destroyers and not the frigates despite your simulations.

Also as a reference Fall of Reach page 111-112 the frigate commonwelth uses its longsword interceptors to distract a covenant frigate while it fired a nuke. Sacrificed the interceptors but it took out the shields of the covenant ship. If they had armed a MAC round to fire at that moment they could have killed it.