Brits are not anti-US, just anti-Bush

from JoeUser Forums
I try not to get involved in politics, nevermind politics of a completely different country. It would appear American politics matters everywhere. Not just to the Americans. Hardly surprising is it really, considering the size, and wealth of America. The politics of America will end up having a knock on effect everywhere else. That's just the way things work. When British people demonstrated Bush's state visit last year. Our Prime minister in his infinite wisdom, presumed we were anti-America. They were not protesting against America, but against a President they do not trust. He isn't our President, but as I mentioned, that power seems to have a knock on effect. America is our biggest Ally; we have profound bonds of history and culture. Not to mention a shared sacrifice in two world wars. We believe as America does that the worlds sole superpower is a democracy and not - as it might have been had the Soviet Union "won" the Cold War - a tyranny.

At this time of the visit there were alot of Polls done, just to see where the british public stood on President Bush. Lets explain the surveys which simultaneously show great affection for the US, even as they record intense suspicion towards Bush? Pick up one poll and it finds that half the public reckons Blair's closeness to Bush is bad for Britain. Pick up another and it reveals the US is still the place where most Britons want to go on holiday, and even where one in five of us would like to live.

We are in awe of America, no doubt. We follow their films, and books. We follow their fashion, what they have to say to the world. We know they are a super power, and we try to be like them. We also see their Politics. The words Bush says, you are either with us, or against us. We see him manipulate the american Public. His inflated claims of weapons of Mass destruction. Where does it all stop.

We all know Americans are very proud of their country. They are also unsure of Bush though. Just look at all the people that voted against him in 2000. They are not anti-America. Far from it. They love their country. With an intense love, that has simply grown since the tragic events of 9/11. They would die for their country, that doesn't mean they have to have faith in their President.

Tony Blair seems to be of the opinion, to accept america, we have to accept Bush. Not the case. We can accept America, and still not agree with their leader. We can respect everything America stands for, but see they were lead to places they may not have wished to go. We can stand by a nation, but not agree with the direction they always go. I personally am not anti-Bush. I am not with him either. I just want the less of two evils. Here I am explaining the British view, Bush is not popular here. America already knows that though.
politics
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Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Excellent post, Sally.


Oh thankyou! I was worried about this one....I didn't want it to be seen in a bad light!
Start11 - Customize the Start Menu and Taskbar in Windows 10/11.
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I just discovered your blog site today. I love it!! I wanted to thank you for what you said in "Brits...". It is nice to know. It is a very strange time here in America. People warn not to travel because everyone hates us, they also say that if you must travel you should say you are canadian. It is so silly. I totally agree with you on everything you said about Bush. I wish more people saw things the way you did.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think this is insightful honey, and I agree with most of your points. I don't know what the truth of the whole situation is- I don't think anyone does, and besides, truth is an ill defined concept. But I do know I, and almost all of the people I know, did not, and will not be voting for him. Personally, the day he leaves the white house will be the happiest day of my life.

No offence to your prime minister, but Bush should really be charging him rent for letting him live in his ass. I think Britain and America have always had an excellent relationship, an equal relationship, but Bush screwed that up. America isn't the bully- Bush is, or rather, the shadowy government figures behind him.

This time round, I hope democracy wins out.

Dyl xx
Reply #5 from PolMach Forums Top
His inflated claims of weapons of Mass destruction. Where does it all stop.

Well actually it is the British secret service that provided that little number and incidentally, the British government continues to stand by that one.

He still despises Blair, though

Yes, many Brits feel that Blair wants to be American too badly and it wounds their pride. I think, however, that Blair does NOT want to be American, he is simply seeing eye to eye with Bush.

Now if Kerry could come to terms with the fact that the Viet Nam war were over, he might be able to make up his mind about...umm.. anything, and earn some respect from me and likeminded Americans.

"Knowing what you know now, Senator Kerry, would you still have voted for the Resolution to use force in Iraq?" "Yes..."
But then when it comes time to buy flak jackets for the troops, he votes no (Well he actually voted for it before he voted against it).

He presents no viable alternative to the Republicans except that he does not subscribe to their party.
I'll be voting with the majority in '04. The President stays for 4 more years.

But leftists should be glad. The door is then wide open for the smartest woman in the world: Hillary in '08 !!!
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
At the moment I agree. If America re-elects Bush however, I will be anti American.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #7 By: heyhey (Anonymous) - 9/11/2004 8:08:18 PM
At the moment I agree. If America re-elects Bush however, I will be anti American.


Then I'd get "ready" if I were you! Latest polls say Bush is pulling away and Kerry is falling behind! Oh Yeah baby!!!!!
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
No problem. I am estimating at spending around $5,000 on a skiing trip this northern winter. I ruled out the US purely based on the approval ratings of Bush. Bush has treated the rest of the world with contempt, the opinion polls largely show that the majority of Americans approve of this approach. That's fine, I'll take my $5k and invest it in France instead. I don't lose out, the US ecconomy does.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thats all right we don't need your money anyway!
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Im curious as to what the British anti-Bush percentages were? Its a tight race here in america, as we all know, almost 50-50, so remember, for every voter that hates Bush, theres one that loves him.


Countries that traditionally support America, almost to a person, don't like Bush. In Britain, it's three to one against. Refer to the opinion poll located here Link that shows that he's very unpopular with most of the citizens of the 35 countries surveyed.

Interestingly, outside of the US, those with higher education and incomes are more likely to support Kerry.

JW
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Excellent post Sally - the sentiment is pretty much mirrored in Australia... except where British want to be like the US, us here in Aus know we are better than you both

It's a subject that will come up time and time again whilst the world gets smaller and the US insist on it's interventionalist policies... If the whole world were able to vote, Kerry would win in a landslide.

America is the only country in the whole world where someone like Bush could get into power, I still shocks me to this day that the American public could possibly re-elect him. I guess they have their reasons... which I dont understand, but it's up to them - Of course we dont hate the American general public, but we cant help questioning the publics intentions when they vote for him again - hence compromising our opinion of them as well... Essentially, I guess George W. Bush does what is right by Americans, for Americans - and it is certainly apparent to me Americans have different values and priorities than any other nation in the Western world. So whilst we are affected, we can only sit and watch the story unfold...

BAM!!!
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
To Sally jacobs:

I'm LWs Husband. I came to America from Britain just over a year ago, my head full of the kinds of suspicions you talk about. Let me tell you something I've learned since then. America can't be comprehended from the other side of an ocean.

My wife, before she knew me, thought that Americans and British were essentially similar. We are not. We are divided by more than a common language. We are divided by wealth you literally cannot imagine, and technology you won't encounter for another ten or fifteen years. We are divided by a political system that, for all its faults, is infinitely more flexible, infinitely more adaptable, and infinitely more responsive, than the antiquated and class-bound nonsense that transpires in Britain.

We are divided by a sense of patriotism that is endemic, genuine, and thriving as opposed to cynical and opportunistic. We are divided by the fact that America is a true and actual power in the world, while Britain is a hanger-on still lost in dreams of faded glories and victories which are no longer relevant to the world.

And Britain is divided from America by the fact that it serves, and America rules.

I hate to tell you this but your suspicions and doubts are irrelevant, just as Britain (though not Europe) is irrelevant. Why do you think I left that wretched, parochial, theme-park of an island? Because I'd rather live in the original than in the copy.

Britain has a claim on some small portion of the past. But all of the future belongs to America.

As to Bush, as a man and a President: I'm not convinced that some of his economic policies are wise. What I am convinced of is that he is a man who will do anything he deems necessary to protect his country and its citizens. Despite my history as a left-leaning 'liberal' if I could vote this year I'd vote for Bush. Why?

Because Kerry is as incapable of doing anything without having it rubber-stamped by a poll as I am of getting to the moon by flapping my arms up and down. And because he will be as much a servant of 'big business' as any Republican - without having the moral courage to be honest about it, or the intelligence to make his captivity serve the public good.

As soon as it serves his interest, Kerry will dump the British.

As to Bush the man: I attended a rally at which he spoke, recently. He's a hard-working joe whose job suits him, and who suits his job. He looks like a guy you could meet in a bar and have an intelligent, impassioned conversation with. He looked, spoke, and acted, like a decent man - the caricatures available in the British press - with which I remain familiar through the online editions of both the Guardian and the Independent - do him no kind of justice.

If you want to know what America is - and by extension, what Bush is - do as I have done. Come live in a provincial American town, live among ordinary Americans, see their honesty, fairness, and generosity. And experience for yourself how truly irrelevant to America, and therefore the world, are your puny suspicions.

What you don't know you can't understand. And unless you live here, you don't know America.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Because Kerry is as incapable of doing anything without having it rubber-stamped by a poll as I am of getting to the moon by flapping my arms up and down. And because he will be as much a servant of 'big business' as any Republican - without having the moral courage to be honest about it, or the intelligence to make his captivity serve the public good.


emp...excellent analogy. This is why I won't support Kerry (as one who had already committed not to support Bush, but who always votes, I am a vote kerry lost.
Reply #14 from PolMach Forums Top
Gee isn't it funny how everyone likes to knock America until the poo hits the fan and then its, "Oh please come save our bacon!" "We are under attack, please liberate our nation" Bla bla bla.
How many Dictatorships has your nation turned into Democracies? America takes the gold in that department. Why is it wrong to appreciate that?
I think Leftist Hollywood has a disproportionate effect on peoples brains - seemingly moreso outsid ethe US. Otherwise I just can't figure it out. It couldn't possibly be jelousy. I mean, just because these dumb headed Americans have figured out how to grant its citizens a high quality of life and leads the world in innovations and all those who can afford and are allowed to, to flock here when they need medical help... Or the greatest fighting force on earth to intervene every time the poo hits the fan. Serbia anyone?
And $$ As if the American economy wasn't the backbone of the world? Yeah - them Americans - they must be SO stupid!
As for liberal foreign tourism. The less of that around here, the better. Go ahead, help that rift grow.
If Americans did not spend tourism $ in your country and your nationals did not visit the US, who gets the better end of that deal? One guess.
Gee - you think you would want to be in the good graces of a friend like that?
Then people say OH they are SO arrogant! Well gee - if you go and criticize them after they have been NOTHING BUT GOOD TO YOU and they defend themselves verbally, then that makes them arrogant. Well I guess when you have something to be proud of, you should pretend that you don't? Is that the way it works?
Where are all the sensible people? Can we please hear from a non-American who actually appreciates and supports America?
Why don't these people worry about the SUDANESE holding the Chairmanship of the Human Rights Committe at the UN OVER US Objections?
Or Chinesse expansion quietly growing or the North Koreans starving so that Kim Jong Il can test nukes over Japan or whatever he is doing over there.
It just cracks me up that when the US was conquering North Africa, Southern and Western Europe and the whole of the Pacific, all these Euro whiners were waving the red, white and blue, but then when its OUR bacon on the fire and that of countries that don't interest them - Oooh Americans stink and their leaders order their military to fight.
Come on!!
I guess it is too much to ask because being too supportive of the US is akin to not being patriotic about your own country. Or something like that. 'meddling in everyone elses affairs' BAH! What affairs would those be? ATTROCITIES! Darn right! Please do meddle with attrocities!
Reply #15 from PolMach Forums Top
Reply #13 By: EmperorofIceCream - 9/12/2004 2:11:14 AM
To Sally jacobs:

I'm LWs Husband. I came to America from Britain just over a year ago, my head full of the kinds of suspicions you talk about. Let me tell you something I've learned since then. America can't be comprehended from the other side of an ocean.

My wife, before she knew me, thought that Americans and British were essentially similar. We are not. We are divided by more than a common language. We are divided by wealth you literally cannot imagine, and technology you won't encounter for another ten or fifteen years. We are divided by a political system that, for all its faults, is infinitely more flexible, infinitely more adaptable, and infinitely more responsive, than the antiquated and class-bound nonsense that transpires in Britain.

We are divided by a sense of patriotism that is endemic, genuine, and thriving as opposed to cynical and opportunistic. We are divided by the fact that America is a true and actual power in the world, while Britain is a hanger-on still lost in dreams of faded glories and victories which are no longer relevant to the world.

And Britain is divided from America by the fact that it serves, and America rules.

I hate to tell you this but your suspicions and doubts are irrelevant, just as Britain (though not Europe) is irrelevant. Why do you think I left that wretched, parochial, theme-park of an island? Because I'd rather live in the original than in the copy.

Britain has a claim on some small portion of the past. But all of the future belongs to America.

As to Bush, as a man and a President: I'm not convinced that some of his economic policies are wise. What I am convinced of is that he is a man who will do anything he deems necessary to protect his country and its citizens. Despite my history as a left-leaning 'liberal' if I could vote this year I'd vote for Bush. Why?

Because Kerry is as incapable of doing anything without having it rubber-stamped by a poll as I am of getting to the moon by flapping my arms up and down. And because he will be as much a servant of 'big business' as any Republican - without having the moral courage to be honest about it, or the intelligence to make his captivity serve the public good.

As soon as it serves his interest, Kerry will dump the British.

As to Bush the man: I attended a rally at which he spoke, recently. He's a hard-working joe whose job suits him, and who suits his job. He looks like a guy you could meet in a bar and have an intelligent, impassioned conversation with. He looked, spoke, and acted, like a decent man - the caricatures available in the British press - with which I remain familiar through the online editions of both the Guardian and the Independent - do him no kind of justice.

If you want to know what America is - and by extension, what Bush is - do as I have done. Come live in a provincial American town, live among ordinary Americans, see their honesty, fairness, and generosity. And experience for yourself how truly irrelevant to America, and therefore the world, are your puny suspicions.

What you don't know you can't understand. And unless you live here, you don't know America.


Wow- I was just posting that I wanted to hear from someone like that and had not. and POW! There it is. Thank you Ice cream man. You made my day. Well said.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Wow what a response, ok lets do this methodically....

I just discovered your blog site today. I love it!!


Brenda, Thanks for the comment. I also discovered your blog site, and look forward to reading what you have to say. Welcome to JU, and thanks for the support.

No offence to your prime minister, but Bush should really be charging him rent for letting him live in his ass.


...I agree totally with you Dyl!

I have no doubt that Kerry is a decent man and means well, he simply has a different "vision" for america. By the same token, Im not 100% supportive of everything Bush has done during his presidency, either.


I think this is something people have to accept, that we will never fully agree with someone in leadership. Not all their decisions will be perfect, we have to comprimise, even when it comes to such things.

Bush got us into it, let him get us out....to show signs of waffling or weakness now is not a good idea at all, and this is why he will have my vote in November.


I see where you're coming from on this, What you have to way up is how much progress Bush is actually making. Though Bush got you in to it, maybe Kerry will have a better way of getting you out. I don't know.

Yes, many Brits feel that Blair wants to be American too badly and it wounds their pride. I think, however, that Blair does NOT want to be American, he is simply seeing eye to eye with Bush.


Ahh this is a tough one. Brits in general are very proud people, and I agree when you says it hurts their pride. Blair is always just a little fast to agree with Bush though. he shows no back bone. He may agree, but he is allowed an opinion of his own too.

At the moment I agree. If America re-elects Bush however, I will be anti American.


I'll never be anti-American, regardless of who is in leadership.

except where British want to be like the US, us here in Aus know we are better than you both


...trust you Mugz...

George W. Bush does what is right by Americans, for Americans - and it is certainly apparent to me Americans have different values and priorities than any other nation in the Western world. So whilst we are affected, we can only sit and watch the story unfold...


It's true we will be effected, and I have to agree with you, I don't understand the reasoning, but in politics I rarely do. Bush cares about America, and its people, and the people can see that, but I just wonder at what cost that will be to everyone else.

We are divided by a sense of patriotism that is endemic, genuine, and thriving as opposed to cynical and opportunistic. We are divided by the fact that America is a true and actual power in the world, while Britain is a hanger-on still lost in dreams of faded glories and victories which are no longer relevant to the world.


I agree with this comment by the majority. Though I think you are being slightly harsh on Britans patriotism. Surely if we were so cynical and opportunistic, we wouldn't have supported Bush in the first place.

I have nothing against America or its people. I worry about where Bush leadership will take them. Though we will soon see I am sure. America maybe the future, but no matter how powerful it is, it can't do it alone, and if the American leaders test that, then who knows where we will go.

Wingman, no one is attacking America here. Simply questioning the leadership. Something even Americans are doing at the moment. America is surely able to take some critism, considering how much it likes to critise other nations, and make them better. America is a great place, not only for its people, but for the rest of the world. It is leading us all to great things. i just hope your leadership doesn't blind people to that fact. This article was not an attack of America.

Thanks for all your comments folks, much appreciated xxx
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
When world opinion is so terrible of America that radicals feel they are taking a stand by flying commercial airliners into corporate buildings, you would kind of hope that Americans would start caring what the world thinks of them...

I put this question to all Americans here - Maybe in the long run, the best thing by the world would be the best thing for Americans... alas, I think Americans look at it the other way around though - and it is America's right to view national interests as they see fit - remember - America first is a good policy only if you are American - If i may point out in the most respectful way possible, I am glad there are 5.7billion people of other nationalitites on our fine planet.

At the end of the day, the British and Australian governments seem to be verry happy to kiss any US administrations ass - I just hope that the negative world view of America does not rub of on our fine counties - Britain already knows what it is like to be seen as an evil empire through colonial times, though Australia doesn't know what that is like yet... We dont particularly want to find out either.

BAM!!!

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
From an international perspective Dyl - we know there are people like you in America, and we know you have a voice, but the other voice is louder, because it's winning... and as long as it continues to win, Americans will still be seen generally in a negative vibe from others.

we still love you Dyl!

BAM!!!
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gee isn't it funny how everyone likes to knock America until the poo hits the fan and then its, "Oh please come save our bacon!" "We are under attack, please liberate our nation" Bla bla bla.


Strange, I have never seen any country ask America to attack them. Maybe what you are talking about happens in the films you watch, but "movies" aren't real and America doesn't save the world everytime. When a large alien craft looms over Earth, we will remember to telephone the Americans, who will cast their best actor to save the rest of the world (who want to be American anyway).
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush got us into it, let him get us out....to show signs of waffling or weakness now is not a good idea at all, and this is why he will have my vote in November.


I see where you're coming from on this, What you have to way up is how much progress Bush is actually making. Though Bush got you in to it, maybe Kerry will have a better way of getting you out. I don't know.


See Sally this "is" the problem. I'm a Bush-lover so what i'm about to say is hard for me. Sen Kerry may indeed have a better way. (Now comes the fun part.) But he has of "yet" to show it to America. He says he has a plan but won't say what it is. This is "really" hurting his chances. And unless he fixes it and "soon", he's going to lose in Nov.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
How many Dictatorships has your nation turned into Democracies?


Britain stopped the greatest threat to democracy the world has ever known, Nazism, and contrary to what most American historians will tell you America did not "save Britain's ass in WW2" we did all the gritty fighting until the Yanks realised that it was in their best interest to do as we were doing.

I firmly believe in what my Grandfather once told me. The only thing that the Americans charged during the First World War was interest on the money they lent.

Because I'd rather live in the original than in the copy.


Then why is America doing the best impression of the British Empire it can muster. Our nation far outdates America, and has known more glory than America ever will. With the strongest economy in Europe, Britain will lead in the future, and the British will rule as they have been born to do.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #19 By: DylanZimmerman - 9/12/2004 8:24:38 AM
What is wrong with taking a global opinion poll exactly? At least it demonstrates that Kerry actually gives a fuck about what the rest of the world thinks. America is not the only country in the world, and war will affect everyone. I don't think Kerry is spineless, I think heis human, whereas Bush is a mere puppet supporting the ideologies of a corrupt and greedy government body, in my opinion.

Iraq is another vietnam because like Vietnam the American government has once again gone sticking its nose in where it's not welcome. America is so powerhungry and supercilious it thinks it's way is the only way, and must therefore subject everyone to its will.

Which is why Kerry will have my vote, and if Bush gets in, I think I'll emmigrate.

Dyl xx


Who "really" cares "what" the rest of the world thinks and "why" should we let their opinion dictate what we do or think?? Kerry "is" spineless because he won't take a firm stand on "anything".
And this won't be another Vietnam. And if you think it will then your wacked! In vietnam our politicians would NOT let us win. Fight and die to win a hill only to give it back to the Viet Cong. You can bomb here but NOT here. Thats the BS that cost us the war. We have no such problems with this war!
And if you plan to emmigrate if Bush wins in Nov., then GET ready now. And please do let me know????? I'll COME HELP YOU PACK!!
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #26 By: Sir Peter Maxwell - 9/12/2004 9:32:06 AM
How many Dictatorships has your nation turned into Democracies?


Britain stopped the greatest threat to democracy the world has ever known, Nazism, and contrary to what most American historians will tell you America did not "save Britain's ass in WW2" we did all the gritty fighting until the Yanks realised that it was in their best interest to do as we were doing.


Excuse me but wasn't Normandy a "joint" effort? Your people weren't the "only ones" dying that day.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
Please excuse me once more "Sir Peter". Your attitude is "exactly" why America should "not" care what the rest of the world thinks.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Please excuse me once more "Sir Peter". Your attitude is "exactly" why America should "not" care what the rest of the world thinks.


Why would the greatest man since Jesus Christ care what a vile little American peasant thinks of him? My social superiority outweighs the inflated egos of a bunch a inbred peasants that watch too many "movies".

If you don't care what the rest the world thinks then evidently your head is simply too far up your own flag sucking ass to see that we're all the same, there is no real nationality


Here here, we are all English.