Americans don't have high taxes

I guess I just imagined Draginol's post whinging about having to cut the government a six figure cheque for taxes. And the central thesis is valid: military spending is a significant portion of the US budget. Invading Iraq is going to cost, what, $100,000,000,000? That's three thousand bucks for every man woman and child in America.

You can only run record deficits for so long before you have to hike taxes to pay for it. Bush is paying for this war on the nation's credit card, and all Americans eventually pick up the tab. They just don't know it yet.

Like I said, you have no idea who pays taxes in the US, or how much they pay. Draginol's issue with taxes is how the preponderance of taxes are piled onto a small minority of Americans while many/most pay nothing.

Until you know who pays taxes, how much they pay, and how that money is allocated I don't see any reason to be offering diagnosis or treatment. You don't even know the problems. Your attempt to hijack an MSNBC article to promote your own superior perspective isn't gonna work well when you don't have all the information.

Maybe you should be looking to the more onerous taxes in your nation. You might find you have a lot of corruption to see to there before you start working on ours

David, pointing out facts, with links to back them up is not "lying".

Who made you the arbiter of universal truth? Are you really as arrogant as you come across?

You made a ridiculous post (which any third party observer can read) arguing how Canada's Gov only spends a "few" more % than the US  goverment does on a post talking about why we're taxed "so much".

Your first assertion is factually and provably wrong. Your second assertion is meaningless given that we're taxed far less than we would be in your own country.

And last:

Invading Iraq is going to cost, what, $100,000,000,000? That's three thousand bucks for every man woman and child in America.

You can't even get your math right.  100 billion / ~300 million= ~300 not 3000. 

You can only run record deficits for so long before you have to hike taxes to pay for it. Bush is paying for this war on the nation's credit card, and all Americans eventually pick up the tab. They just don't know it yet.

Speaking of debts, again glass houses:  http://www.basicincome.com/basic_candata.htm Canada's debt is 62% of its GDP. Or about the same as the US's debt to GDP.  Talk about glass houses / stones.

Do you look up anything at all before you make your claims?

Speaking of debts, again glass houses: http://www.basicincome.com/basic_candata.htm Canada's debt is 62% of its GDP. Or about the same as the US's debt to GDP. Talk about glass houses / stones. Do you look up anything at all before you make your claims?

We have been in a budgetary surplus for several years. America is not. We are paying down our debt. America is not. America is running record budget deficits. Canada is not. Looking at total debt rather than annual defecits is typical of you using bad data to justify your weak assertions. Apples and fish, how many times do I have to tell you? Basic Economics tells us that today's deficits are tomorrow's debts. We are dealing with our debt. America is not. I'd say that in the area of sane fiscal policy, our "Glass House" is rather solid compared to the USA. Owing largely to my original thesis: that Americans pay too much tax because of military expenditures. Please try to stay on topic.

Here is some recent, accurate data, from a respected right-wing think-tank here in Canada, about effective levels of taxation in Canada and the USA. Brad, look for the part in Figure 3 that shows Alberta as having a lower combined municipal-state/provincial-federal spending than Michigan. Alberta will be *debt free* next year, byt the way. Keep laughing about our high tax rates, but the joke is on you. The 5 provinces on the high end of Figure 3 represent a small percentage of Canadians, less than 10%, so don't go for the kneejerk reaction here. While tax rates differ from state to state and province to province, this data shows that it is not inaccurate to suggest that the difference in total public spending between Canada and the USA can be described as a few percentage points. One more thing: American tax rates are an illusion; they are not nearly high enough to realistically pay for public spending. So if taxes reflected *actual* govenment spending, rather than the "Can't afford it? Fuckin' finance it" school of economic thought, the difference would be even smaller.


Link

"One more thing: American tax rates are an illusion; they are not nearly high enough to realistically pay for public spending."

Once again, you are pretending like you have some moral authority to judge America's internal economics. Our taxes aren't high enough, so we need to lower spending, but then we need to raise spending to make us as moral as Canada and offer socialized healthcare. Why not just impose your whole system?

You compare countries, then when it doesn't suit you, you compare states, then you shift to sales tax, blah, blah. The citizens of the US aren't denied socialized health care, we as a society decide not ot have it. Why are you still banging a drum about the US? What is your motivation? To us it is very ugly getting handed a sermon by someone who doesn't even bother to learn about the system he is criticizing.

Like you say, Apples and Fishes. Stick to your apple, since our fish is none of your business. If you venture into our business, though, you'd be well advised to ride in on something a bit more substantial than an MSNBC article you've taken out of context.

David,

1) Again, your DEBT as a percent of GDP is about the same as the US's. So you currently have a budgetary surplus. So what. The US had one too until 2001 and it'll probably have them in the future.  Your were trying to argue that we Americans have a credit card mentality when in fact we have the same debt level as you do.

2) What would you know about tax rates being too high or too low? What are your credentials to make such a bold assertion? As a % of GDP, the US's deficit isn't particularly high. If GDP grows faster than spending a bit we would be in surplus again.

3) If you are trying to make it a bragging point that only a small percentage of Canadians make enough (i.e. like $60K US per year) to reach those high end tax brackets then I feel sorry for you.  We Americans don't consider a household income of $60K per year to be "rich".  Then again, that would explain why the average Canadian household is so poor relatively speaking.

4) I provided links not to some "think tank" but to Canada's own statistics on these matters. Your tax brackets aren't a matter of "analysis" they are what they are.  Similarly, Canada's spending as a % of GDP isn't something for analysis, it is what it is. You can't squirm your way out of the fact that Canada Spends a LOT more as a percent of its GDP than the United States does and that its taxes are significantly higher than they are in the United States -- and that's not counting the $500 to $1000 (depending on your province) health care payment.

And if that isn't enough, even with all those taxes, Canada's debt is about the same as the US's. And your response? Canada isn't in deficit at this very second. Whoopie. Let me know when you guys pay off that debt. In about a century or two it should be paid down at your current rate (2003 "surplus" was $7 billion).  Your INTEREST on your debt is almost 6 times that amount. So your "suruplus" isn't even enough to pay for your interest payments.

What I find particularly amazing is how someone who lives in a country with a national debt that is over 60% of their GDP can possibly be lecturing the United States on tax policy.  Particularly when the federal government of Canada has so much fewer responsibilities.  The US, after all, had to pay for the defense of the free world (including Canada) for 50 years of cold war. Most of the US debt was accumulated (as Democrats love to point out) during the Reagan years as part of the huge military build up that ultimately toppled (arguably) the Soviets. 

What's Canada's excuse for having such a huge debt? How does a country with a population of around 30 million that doesn't even have to pay for its own defense, whose only neighbor is the richest country in the world end up with a massive debt? Talk about reckless and irresponsible spending. Canada's like the irresponsible teenager who can't even manage their pocket money even though they live in the upstairs loft of their parent's (USA) house.

But on top of that, you don't even seem to know what your thesis is.  In one post you say Americans pay too much in taxes because of military spending (do you even know what military spending is in the US as a % of its GDP? It's quite low actually) but then you say that Americans aren't even remotely enough to pay for its public expenses.  Well, which is it?

Me thinks you should spend more time analysing your own country as it seems you know very little about Canada, let alone the United States.

I'm not going to bother responding here any further as it's quite apparent at this point you don't know what you're talking about. And when presented with facts and evidence that demonstrate your errors, you just pretend it isn't there, or call it lies, or simply conclude you have disproven these facts simply by stating it -- as if your own arrogance trumps reality.

Given that you couldn't even manage to do a simple math calculation correctly, that you don't know your country's spending per GDP, and have little knowledge of American taxation or military spending it would seem to me that your thread was just an excercise in typical mindless America bashing.

typical mindless America bashing.

And this is typical "I lost the debate, and my country can't take any criticism" baloney. Geez, at least you didn't accuse me of penis envy.

It's been a hell of a lot of fun arguing with America's best and brightest today. But I have other things to do and there will be other posts to argue. I sincerely thank you gentlemen for the debate, and look forward to more in the future.

"The typical Canadian pays more for their health insurance than Americans ($400 per year versus <$20 per visit for the typical American). "

Nice statistic... too bad it's meaningless.

1) You compare per year per visit... apples and oranges. For someone who might have to make more than 20 visits a year....
2) Doctor visits are only part of the total cost of health care.
3) I assume that the visits costing only $20 are based on more some sort of health insurance, and your statistic doesn't factor the cost of this in. (I don't know about you, but for me to get health insurance through my employer would cost me at least $50 a month- and my employer another $50- for just the most basic of coverages).

Brad, BakerS, and David,

I'm not going to get into every detail you boys are slinging about, except to say that:

1. Canada's health care isn't perfect, and needs some serious revisions to keep it healthy long-term. However, Canada spends far less of it's GDP on health care than the US does (last time I read about it, the US spent about 3.3% of GDP, vs. 2.2% for Canada), yet health outcomes are virtually the same, across all income groups, except the poor, where they fare better in Canada.

2. Brad, your stat about our debt ratio isn't correct; our federal debt is only about 44% of GDP. It was much higher at one point, and alarming to anyone who knew anything about finances. Thank God the Alliance put the debt on the national radar, or our country would be a basket case today. Instead of getting stronger and healthier as it is today.

3. Yes, I can get into my doc's on an hours notice for non-emergency stuff - and have at times. Thank goodness too, at least for my kids.

Notwithstanding all that, I don't think there's much dispute that the USA is lower taxed, but Davids' claim there's only a few points difference when measured by GDP matches up with my readings of the Economist over time. The GDP component of the government isn't all that different (less than 5% typically) compared to OECD norms.

JW