John Gilliland

Does Gay Marriage Have to Be Called Gay Marriage?

Does Gay Marriage Have to Be Called Gay Marriage?

A rose by any other name...

Is same-sex marriage worth ripping America apart?

It's likely a question people found themselves asking during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's-1960's. But this is the only parallel one can draw between the two issues and remain intellectually honest. The Black fight for equality centered on perceptions and treatment based on an unchangeable genetic trait (skin color), while gays suffer discrimination based on an arguably chosen behavior (sexual liasons with one's own gender).

In Massachussetts, that state's highest court has ruled that gay marriage is legal. In dozens of other states, the same practice is illegal. Arizona, for instance, has a law banning these marriages that has passed constitutional muster there. Now, Arizona clergy are tearing into one another: pro-gay calling pro-church Catholic priests hateful and spititually violent. Bishop Thomas Olmsted has gone as far as suspending the last priest to keep his name on a pro-gay document called "the Phoenix Declaration", which declares that homosexuality is a state of being, not a sin. And in Indianapolis, Baptists have split, with the Southern Baptists leaving the World Baptist Alliance...tearing apart an organization comprising tens of millions of the faithful.

But what are gay's looking to wed their partners fighting for? In many cases, people opposed to same-sex marriage are supporting the idea of civil unions. These unions confer all the legal benefits of marriage on gay couples, but they don't officially call them married.

If one accepts that civil unions are the legal equals of marriages and are different in name only, then those fighting most vociferously for gay marriage are fighting for the word "marriage." Why? Do they wish to water-down the religious meaning of marriage? While some of the most radical gays might wish revenge against institutions they have traditionally viewed as oppressive, the majority of this peculiar minority are simply seeking equality in all respects...including being able to call their partners wives and husbands.

What is the solution? It's a difficult question, but the least disruptive and most feasible would be to eliminate the civil component of marriage altogether. I propose that no Justice Of The Peace be allowed to marry anyone...that they could only perform civil union ceremonies. Marriage, as such, would be reserved for religious ceremonies, only. That way, individual faiths could determine whether or not they wished to recognize same-sex unions. As it would be religious organizations deciding if gays could marry under the auspices of their organizations, any dissent would be limited and would not spill out into the general public.

In this manner, all sides win. Gays get legal equality with their married-straight counterparts and religious adherents get to limit the ise of the word "marriage." While this solution is certainly not perfect, it does contain the seeds of a solution to this thorny problem.
18,561 views 36 replies
Reply #26 Top
Pedophilia, BDSM, and bestiality are all private sexual acts. Gay marriage is not a sexual act. Gay marriage does not legitimize any sexual acts. It legitimizes love and committment. It should be legal for that reason only. Sinful gay sexual acts exist independently of gay marriage, and should be addressed as independent issues. It is time for Christians to take their heads out of the gutters and elevate them into the world of principle, respect, and reasonable thinking.
Reply #27 Top
I rather think many of you have strayed from the original thread here. My point is not to argue the legitimacy of of same-sex marriage. By definition, if such a union is recognized by a governing authority, it is legitimate within the scope of that authority. My singular point is that much would be solved if we took the word "marriage" out of the secular and placed in firmly in the realm of the parochial. If this means legislation equalizing the protections and priveledges granted in both marriage and civil unions so there is no real legal distinction, then so be it.
Reply #28 Top
Cults call themselves Christians... But, they arn't.


The Severely Mentally disturbed arn't nessecarily bad (it's a disease and it's through no fault of their own), but when they are mass murderers then they arn't christians.


While you continue to lump me into the Humanist category (still demonstrating you know nothing about objectivism and don't care to), you try to distance your religion from those that act under it's banner. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Christianity is real.


As a belief system, yes. As the truth, no.

God dosen't make mistakes.


On this we agree but for different reasons. Its impossible for something that doesn't exist to make mistakes.

I gave you a link in the other thread if you have any interest in educating yourself about the philosophy I embrace. If you don't fine, but I won't continue this discussion any further after my next post.

VES
Reply #29 Top
Whatever a "objectivist" is? Sounds like a made up term.


Objectivism is a descriptive title for the philosophy of Ayn Rand. All words were "made up" at some point. It's not an organization, it's a philosophy of individualism. By it's nature, people who follow it must be atheists. There are plenty of sites on the web that can give you an overview, if you have the interest to learn about it.

You certainly are not foolish enough to think only christians do these things..... or are you?


Christians represent a significant proportion of the folks who perform those acts. However you are correct in that people of other faiths and religions also do them as well with the exception of the KKK, and every abortion clinic bomber that I have ever heard of. The other part of that point was that objectivists DON'T do any of those things.

I'm done here.

VES
Reply #31 Top
You can have the right to be gay. It is not against the law like pedophilia, biggamy, polygamy, etc...

That doesn't give you the right to make it Ok for the rest of us! I've read the reasons on why Civil Unions aren't enough and I just don't buy those reasons. Any good estate lawyer would tell you that those reasons don't cut it. The reason that I thought was the most hillarious was the religious reason. RELIGIOUS!! That's just too funny. They want to force churches into condoning these relationships!!

I have no problem with civil union for gays or straights, but marriage is a religious event. I will only remind you of the bible story of Soddam and Gomora to tell you that GOD doesn't approve!!

It's a state's issue for right now, and hopefully it will eventually be fully defined federally. Most god fearing Americans feel that homosexuality is nothing but a sexual perversion. It's fine if you have it, but keep it to yourself and keep it out of my home!
Reply #32 Top
Objectivism is a descriptive title for the philosophy of Ayn Rand. All words were "made up" at some point. It's not an organization, it's a philosophy of individualism. By it's nature, people who follow it must be atheists. There are plenty of sites on the web that can give you an overview, if you have the interest to learn about it.


Ah, Ayn Rand.

Christians represent a significant proportion of the folks who perform those acts. However you are correct in that people of other faiths and religions also do them as well with the exception of the KKK, and every abortion clinic bomber that I have ever heard of. The other part of that point was that objectivists DON'T do any of those things.

Oh come now. You certainly cannot substantiate that. Unless you are meaning that a true objectivist would never do such things. In which case a "true" Christian, Muslim, etc. would not do them either. There are many bad things done in the name of Christianity or other religions. Do those people define their movements? No, of course not. That no one has run out and said "For the greater good of objectivism!... boom!" is more a reflection of the overall validity and acceptance of such idealogy. Your statement and assertions against religion are pointless..

As a belief system, yes. As the truth, no.

But what is truth? You are simply stating *your* believes here.

I'm done here.

Run and hide, ? What does this mean?
Reply #33 Top
Let's not forget polygamists. They should have as much right to marry multiple spouses as gays have to marry people of the same sex. After all, who are we to judge that humans can only have one love in life?


The problem with polygamy in a society where women and men have equal rights is that the women would gang up on the man. And you think that divorce is complicated now? If a man with two wives divorces one, who gets to keep the kids?
Reply #34 Top

What is to happen to our society when we legally recognize the supposed "right" of gays to marry? What will happen next? Beastiality? Pedophelia? Will the courts recognize these supposed "rights" too? "Oh," some might say, "That's not gonna happen! That's common sense!" Well, what happens when common sense is no longer common or sensible? In America there is a phenomena called Judicial Activism. During the 1950's and 60s The Supreme Court, under Chief Justice Earl Warren adopted a philosophy of judicial activism. Rather than staying with the constitutional role of clarifying the constitution and interpreting its meaning as it applied to current situations, the Warren court took an active role in the legislative process and made law from the bench by interpreting the constitution to mean what the justices wanted it to mean, rather than for a position of original understanding.

Those who are judicial activists rule on personal whims rather than what is written in the constitution. They tend to dismiss those who practice the doctrine of judicial restraint as being out dated like the constitution. They claim that judges need to have "wide" views. (Which translates to leftist)

An interesting problem has developed recently in which a state judge in Massachussetts has allowed gays to be married. What's the problem then? Well, it's this:

Article 4, Section 1 states that "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial preceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof."
Which means,
"All states must respect the laws and court rulings of all other states. Congress shall make rules that will ensure that this happens."

So the states, according to this clause, shoudl respect Massachussetss's ruling and make gay marriage legal.

Article 4, Section 2, Clause 1 states "The citizens of the states shall be entitled to all privileges of the citizens of citizens in the several states."

So, there is obviously a problem here. Since it is in the very framework of the Constitution it seems that the other states have no other choice than to implement the law. If the states were to declare it illegal individually judges would strike the decision down. It woudl seem that the States have no other choice than to call a convention to ammend the constitution, if that is what the states want. Only then can the activist judges not declare it constitutional, it would be a part of the constitution...






You hateful bigot. Equal rights for homosexuals is a noble cause and the arguements in favor of it do not apply to the things mentioned on your little slippery slope . Pedophillia and Beastiality is not private behavior between consenting adults, is inherently preditory and harmful to children and animals respectively. This is a matter of equal protection under the law.
Reply #35 Top
See my article about Homosexuality https://www.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=18590 . Also, since you don't condone pedophilia and beastialty could I say that you're a "hateful bigot"? Homosexuality is harmful as well. Need i remind you of AIDS? AIDS is no longer a disease which only effects the homosexual community, but it began there.
Reply #36 Top
You hateful bigot. Equal rights for homosexuals is a noble cause and the arguements in favor of it do not apply to the things mentioned on your little slippery slope .

Stilanas,

So because someone doesn't believe what you do, they are automatically a biggot? The biggot is you! If I don't agree with you about this I should be able to call you hateful homosexual psuedonyms? The funny thing about the left is if you don't have the same beliefs it makes you some form of hateful slime. I've fought for our right to the freedoms that we have here. So I'm glad that you have the right to call people names and be socially inept. That doesn't make it right. Being a homosexual is another freedom that isn't necessarily right. MARRIAGE is not a right or a freedom that the government provides, it is a commitment recognized by GOD between and one man and one woman. The government provides us the privelege of recognizing it.