Does Gay Marriage Have to Be Called Gay Marriage?

A rose by any other name...

Is same-sex marriage worth ripping America apart?

It's likely a question people found themselves asking during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's-1960's. But this is the only parallel one can draw between the two issues and remain intellectually honest. The Black fight for equality centered on perceptions and treatment based on an unchangeable genetic trait (skin color), while gays suffer discrimination based on an arguably chosen behavior (sexual liasons with one's own gender).

In Massachussetts, that state's highest court has ruled that gay marriage is legal. In dozens of other states, the same practice is illegal. Arizona, for instance, has a law banning these marriages that has passed constitutional muster there. Now, Arizona clergy are tearing into one another: pro-gay calling pro-church Catholic priests hateful and spititually violent. Bishop Thomas Olmsted has gone as far as suspending the last priest to keep his name on a pro-gay document called "the Phoenix Declaration", which declares that homosexuality is a state of being, not a sin. And in Indianapolis, Baptists have split, with the Southern Baptists leaving the World Baptist Alliance...tearing apart an organization comprising tens of millions of the faithful.

But what are gay's looking to wed their partners fighting for? In many cases, people opposed to same-sex marriage are supporting the idea of civil unions. These unions confer all the legal benefits of marriage on gay couples, but they don't officially call them married.

If one accepts that civil unions are the legal equals of marriages and are different in name only, then those fighting most vociferously for gay marriage are fighting for the word "marriage." Why? Do they wish to water-down the religious meaning of marriage? While some of the most radical gays might wish revenge against institutions they have traditionally viewed as oppressive, the majority of this peculiar minority are simply seeking equality in all respects...including being able to call their partners wives and husbands.

What is the solution? It's a difficult question, but the least disruptive and most feasible would be to eliminate the civil component of marriage altogether. I propose that no Justice Of The Peace be allowed to marry anyone...that they could only perform civil union ceremonies. Marriage, as such, would be reserved for religious ceremonies, only. That way, individual faiths could determine whether or not they wished to recognize same-sex unions. As it would be religious organizations deciding if gays could marry under the auspices of their organizations, any dissent would be limited and would not spill out into the general public.

In this manner, all sides win. Gays get legal equality with their married-straight counterparts and religious adherents get to limit the ise of the word "marriage." While this solution is certainly not perfect, it does contain the seeds of a solution to this thorny problem.
18,561 views 36 replies
Reply #1 Top
I want to clarify a few things. Civil unions do not give the same rights as full gay marraige. Civil unions only give the rights of the states, infact, there over 1,000 other rights that are granted under full gay marriage. The idea of civil unions was meant to be seperate but equal, but they are not. So there are two options either full gay marriage or the idea of civil marriage. What a civil marraige would be is a legal contract before the state and the federal government that says you are married. The reason for this concept is to bring gay marriage away from the church debate. Many people associate marriage as a religious thing with rights attached to it. A civil marriage would be a legal marriage without any church connections. That way the religious arguments can be thrown out. A civil marriage would be an act of government giving the rights that other people already have. So, no it does not have to be called gay marriage, but a civil is not enough to seperate but equal.

Here is a link for supporting information on why civil union is not enough
http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Center&CONTENTID=16762&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm
Reply #2 Top
The answer seems simple. Make civil unions enough. Simply change the marriage term the federal government and state government use to civil union.
Reply #3 Top
Copper, theoretically, we should be able to create an institution of civil union that offers the same rights as marriage. Furthermore, this institution should be available to all citizens who would protest the exclusivity of marriage. Until the same rights are provided to homosexual couples who would like to formalize their relationship, there is no good justification to deny them the institution of marriage. We need to get beyond our disagreement over the morality of gay sex, and ensure that 99.9%, rather than just 90% or 95% of the population, have an institution that will allow them to formalize a relationship with the person they love the most. The power of love is much more compelling than the power of hate, fear, or moral disapproval. As long as we make sure that homosexuals know that they are sinning and could go to hell, we have no further duty, and must let them live their own lives and make their own choices as adults.
Reply #4 Top
What is to happen to our society when we legally recognize the supposed "right" of gays to marry? What will happen next? Beastiality? Pedophelia? Will the courts recognize these supposed "rights" too? "Oh," some might say, "That's not gonna happen! That's common sense!" Well, what happens when common sense is no longer common or sensible? In America there is a phenomena called Judicial Activism. During the 1950's and 60s The Supreme Court, under Chief Justice Earl Warren adopted a philosophy of judicial activism. Rather than staying with the constitutional role of clarifying the constitution and interpreting its meaning as it applied to current situations, the Warren court took an active role in the legislative process and made law from the bench by interpreting the constitution to mean what the justices wanted it to mean, rather than for a position of original understanding.

Those who are judicial activists rule on personal whims rather than what is written in the constitution. They tend to dismiss those who practice the doctrine of judicial restraint as being out dated like the constitution. They claim that judges need to have "wide" views. (Which translates to leftist)

An interesting problem has developed recently in which a state judge in Massachussetts has allowed gays to be married. What's the problem then? Well, it's this:

Article 4, Section 1 states that "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial preceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof."
Which means,
"All states must respect the laws and court rulings of all other states. Congress shall make rules that will ensure that this happens."

So the states, according to this clause, shoudl respect Massachussetss's ruling and make gay marriage legal.

Article 4, Section 2, Clause 1 states "The citizens of the states shall be entitled to all privileges of the citizens of citizens in the several states."

So, there is obviously a problem here. Since it is in the very framework of the Constitution it seems that the other states have no other choice than to implement the law. If the states were to declare it illegal individually judges would strike the decision down. It woudl seem that the States have no other choice than to call a convention to ammend the constitution, if that is what the states want. Only then can the activist judges not declare it constitutional, it would be a part of the constitution...
Reply #5 Top
I suggested calling gay marriages "rainbow unions" in my article "I solve the Gay Marriage problem"
Link which would include all the rights and privileges of a heterosexual marriage except that the Right can be happy with it not being a "marriage" under the eyes of God.

suspeckted



Reply #6 Top
Let's not forget polygamists. They should have as much right to marry multiple spouses as gays have to marry people of the same sex. After all, who are we to judge that humans can only have one love in life?
Reply #7 Top
Gay marriages should be called marriages only. If the marriage is leagal then why would you add another word to it unless you are comfortable with everyone knowing you sexual preference. Leagalizing marriage for homosexuals is overdue. I cant believe its taken this long.
Sincerly,
Believer in the rights of human beings, not labels.
Reply #8 Top
Well, what happens when common sense is no longer common or sensible?


Common sense will always be common and sensible. That's the beauty of it.
Reply #9 Top
If one accepts that civil unions are the legal equals of marriages and are different in name only, then those fighting most vociferously for gay marriage are fighting for the word "marriage."


It takes two to tango. While you suggest it's only gay people arguing for the use of the term marriage, to be intellectually honest you must recognize that there must be an equally fervent opposing side. If the word marriage isn't that important, why is the other side fighting so fervently against it? Or in other words, if the country is going to be "ripped apart", it's going to take both sides to do it, not just the gay side as your article suggests.

VES
Reply #10 Top
What is to happen to our society when we legally recognize the supposed "right" of gays to marry? What will happen next? Beastiality? Pedophelia? Will the courts recognize these supposed "rights" too? "Oh," some might say, "That's not gonna happen! That's common sense!"


No, because bestiality and pedophilia do not involve activity between consenting adults. There is a difference.

What are your specific objections to homosexuality and / or their right to marry?

VES
So, there is obviously a problem here


Judges are OBLIGATED to rule against cases that they believe are in violation of a person's constitutional rights. It could be argued and / or interpreted that the rights to life and liberty as set forth in the 5th amendment are being violated by opposing gay marriages between consenting adults, or creating laws preventing them. The check and balance to this is that the case can be reviewed by higher courts (state supreme court, district courts of appeals, and finally the US supreme court) to determine that actual constitution issue and need for redress. What is not commonly known is that cases which go before supreme courts are judged on their individual merit, and the decisions and remedies (if appropriate) are UNIQUE to those individual cases. The opinions of the courts are not meant to be blanket decision covering all such cases with an expectation that the states follow behind in unity, though quite frequently they choose to do just that.

For example, in Miranda vs. Arizona, the court decided in that specific case, the police should have advised the defendant of his legal rights so that he understood them prior to being subjected to an in-custody interrogation. Other states followed suit voluntarily because of the expectation that their cases would also be challenged and overturned by the court, when in fact they may not actually be overturned. The mentality is better safe than sorry. The court never issued a decree that all states must now follow suit. Consider a case going before the Surpreme court involving a defendant who is an experienced criminal defense attorney. Do you honestly think he would need to be advised of his right not to incriminate himself before he would know and understand that right? Or do you believe that the purpose of Miranda vs. Arizona to create a passage that must be mindlessly read to anyone who is being interrogated while in the custody of the police?

Also, I question your interpretation of Article 4, section 1. I will look into this, but my initial impression is that it refers to the concept that other states are obligated to acknowledge and abide by deeds, debts, civil judgements, leins, etc. I do not think that it means that if one state passes a law or has a ruling that withstands (or is rejected by) constitutional scrutiny, that all other states must follow in kind. If that is the case, that OBLITERATES the concept of states rights. At the very least, you are incorrect in the role you ascribe to congress. The article says "congress MAY" and you interpret that as "congress SHALL".

VES
Reply #11 Top
deleted because I was incorrect.
Reply #12 Top
The full faith and credit clause doesn't mean that every state would need to legalize gay marriage, but it is expected to force other states to recognize gay marriages performed in Massachusetts.
Reply #13 Top
Humanists have won the following victories in recent decades: the elimination of the God-instituted death penalty (which was later partially reinstated by the U.S. Supreme Court); from no abortion to abortion on demand (which is the indiscriminate genocide of babies); criminal rights now generally take precedence over the rights of the victim; gay rights, which are now greater than the rights of normal people; the sexual revolution with the right to do any perverted kind of sex among consenting adults (this has given “credibility” to such perverted groups as the North American Man-Boy Love Association, which advocates sex with little boys).

Since societial norms change with time as shown above, what makes you think that it will not happen. Children like myself are being taught that it's 'OK to be Gay'. But as each generation proceeds and dies off newer, more cutting-edge" ideas are adopted. The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) fights for 'rights' such as flag burning, removing monuments, suing the Salvation Army for being a Christian Organization, and0 lawsuits against the Patriot Act. Some of Us would believe the ACLU hasn't got ACLUE... but, anyways... So if, with every generation, the morality of people degenerated further and further.. It's not unbelieveable, at least in my mind, for this to happen.

Step by step these groups are softening the public opinion of their acts with television, film, editorials, and Literature. People are falling prey to it. And, eventually, people will be asking, "What's wrong with that?" or "I don't see a problem with that!" and finally, "Everyone is doing it!"
Reply #14 Top
No, because bestiality and pedophilia do not involve activity between consenting adults. There is a difference.


Beastiality does involve activity of a consenting adult. No one is harmed in the process. Let them marry their sheep and take that tax deduction.
Reply #16 Top
But you avoid the issue of Pedophilia... why?


It involves a person who is not an adult.
Reply #18 Top
Humanists have won the following victories in recent decades: the elimination of the God-instituted death penalty


I will only correct you once more about calling me a humanist. If you don't care to learn the differences between objectivism and generic humanists, I'll just let you continue to argue in ignorance, by yourself.

Objectivists almost universally agree that the death penalty is morally just, and absolutely that it isn't "god-given". Their objection is that it's implementation in the current state of science and justice represents too much of a risk for an innocent man to be executed. As DNA evidence becomes more prevalent, we are finding out just how many errors have been made at the cost of innocent lives. Perhaps that doesn't concern you. Perhaps these innocent people's lives need to be risked for the greater good.

from no abortion to abortion on demand (which is the indiscriminate genocide of babies);


There have been plenty of threads on here about abortion, and I once agreed with your position that fetuses are babies. They aren't babies however. It should be noted that there are some christians who also support choice. While I personally find abortion repugnant, I recognize that the actual life of the women is more important than the potential life of the fetus. For that reason, I have changed my position regarding it's legality. However, it is not genocide.

criminal rights now generally take precedence over the rights of the victim;


If you look at objectivism at all, you will find that they would deal with criminals in a very harsh manner. Punishment in proportion to the crime. There are no delusions of rehabilitation or deterence etc. The purpose of justice is to punish criminals, period.

gay rights, which are now greater than the rights of normal people;


Objectivist do not support "gay rights", the support individual rights. They do not support at all ANY theory of special group or class rights, which is indictative of collectivist thinking, something that is staunchly opposed. However, as homosexual activity does not harm others when the participants are willing, there is no reasonable basis to make it illegal, including the idea of civil unions or marriage. Rand herself thought that homosexuality was immoral, but would not support laws banning it. Objectivists are somewhat split regarding the morality of homosexuality. None the less, since "normal" is whimsically decided by whoever represents the majority, there is often no sound basis for whether "normal" is right or moral. Slavery used to "normal". Racism used to "normal". Domestic Abuse used to be "normal". The treating of women as second class citizens used to be "normal". Christian normality is a very oppressive concept. Normal means very little in terms of right and wrong.

the sexual revolution with the right to do any perverted kind of sex among consenting adults


And what's your problem with that? As long as it doesn't harm anyone else, why would you object to the kind of sex consenting adults engage in?

this has given “credibility” to such perverted groups as the North American Man-Boy Love Association,


Not with objectivists. They don't support pedophilia at all. In fact, most objectivists view as a celebration between between two consenting adults who hold each other in the highest regard based on shared values and virtues. Most of the people I see bar hopping every weekend looking for the next bunny to hump are you everyday run of the mill christians who go to church sunday to wash away the sins they CHOOSE to carry out friday and saturday night.

Children like myself are being taught that it's 'OK to be Gay'


Why isn't it?

The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) fights for 'rights' such as flag burning,


Do you put the symbol of the flag, or the material of which it's made above the life or liberty of a human being? Are symbols worth more than freedom? Be careful not to worship a false idols, it's against your religion.

So if, with every generation, the morality of people degenerated further and further.. It's not unbelieveable, at least in my mind, for this to happen.


It's merely an opinion that morality has "degenerated". My view is that morality is starting to become more based on rationality, reason and reality. When morality has a solid foundation, not one based on whim or mysticism, it needn't change. Religion has told people for too long, don't do this or that, not for a reason, but simply because "god says so". After awhile, people look for real answers. At least smart people do. I guess that's why your told to accept your faith "as a child would". Don't question it because it doesn't hold up to reason.

Christianity is a religion (not unlike Islam) where death is the ultimate value because you are promised heaven as a reward in the, ahem, after life. Objectivism holds that life is the ultimate value, which gives a strong basis for making it worthwhile, moral and productive. Aren't you looking forward to being dead so that you can go to heaven? Don't you feel the need to sacrifice yourself for your faith, for your god and for the "greater good"?

That said, though objectivist would disagree with your practicing christianity, you would be allowed to practice your faith and snese of morality unfettered. Christianity on the other hand seeks to impose it's faith and morality on others, and throughout history it has done so in by means of some very evil and oppressive methods.

Objectivists don't wear hoods like that christian organization called the KKK.
Objectivists don't bomb abortion clinics or doctor's offices ( or anything really).
Objectivists don't start wars, or at least haven't yet, though they have no problem responding to threats or attacks.
Objectivists don't hold the color of someone's skin or the sexual preference against them, and they don't lynch them for taking land and jobs from the white man.
Objectivists don't become serial killers or mass murderers carrying out the "will of god."
Objectivist don't demoralize or destroy individuals by telling them they aren't worthy, that they should feel guilty, and that they're nothing in the eyes of a fictious being.

No, you have to be christian to do those things.

VES
Reply #19 Top

Objectivists don't wear hoods like that christian organization called the KKK.
Cults call themselves Christians... But, they arn't.

Objectivists don't bomb abortion clinics or doctor's offices ( or anything really). Objectivists don't become serial killers or mass murderers carrying out the "will of god."

The Severely Mentally disturbed arn't nessecarily bad (it's a disease and it's through no fault of their own), but when they are mass murderers then they arn't christians.

Objectivist don't demoralize or destroy individuals by telling them they aren't worthy, that should feel guilty, and that their nothing in the eyes of a fictious being.

That interests me because that's a staple of Humanistic movements. "Everyone is good. No one is a sinner." People need to understand they are sinners. "For all have sinned and come short of the will of God"


Christianity is a religion (not unlike Islam) where death is the ultimate value because you are promised heaven as a reward in the, ahem, after life. Objectivism holds that life is the ultimate value, which gives a strong basis for making it worthwhile, moral and productive. Aren't you looking forward to being dead so that you can go to heaven? Don't you feel the need to sacrifice yourself for your faith, for your god and for the "greater good"?


There is a difference between Islam and Christianity: Christianity is real.

Among Christians it should be regarded as a privilege to die for the true and the living God. Death through Martyrdom (not the muslim Jihad) but like numerous Christians throughout History eg. The Reign of Nero

Death however is not more important than life. Life is a gift of God. It is the duty of a country to protect life and property of individuals. However, since Roe v. Wade millions of babies have been slaughtered.

Note: Just going to Church dosen't mean you're a Christian. Just like standing in a garage dosen't mean you're a car.

Being Gay is deviant behavior.

Burning the flag is unpatriotic and disrespectful to people who died for the united states to defend freedom


Christians object to Gays because they love the person but hate the sin.

God dosen't make mistakes. People do.
Reply #20 Top
There is a difference between Islam and Christianity: Christianity is real.


And how do you know this?
Reply #21 Top
how silly. Why did you call it gay marriage when you decided to start this thread? You know why? Because what you're talking about is gay marriage hence the term gay marriage. Why would you think of messing with such a concise precise description of something? 2 gay homos get married. They're gay. They're married. Gay's are married. Gay marriage. !!???!!!
Reply #22 Top
yeah... so you only have a problem with that?


I fail to understand your point? The original point I was responding to which I was responding stated that beastality and ped. do not involve consenting adults. My reply was that beast..... oh never mind.
Reply #23 Top
Whatever a "objectivist" is? Sounds like a made up term. Is this a organization, belief or what? Or is it anyone who is atheist or agnostic?

Objectivists don't wear hoods like that christian organization called the KKK.Objectivists don't bomb abortion clinics or doctor's offices ( or anything really).Objectivists don't start wars, or at least haven't yet, though they have no problem responding to threats or attacks.Objectivists don't hold the color of someone's skin or the sexual preference against them, and they don't lynch them for taking land and jobs from the white man.Objectivists don't become serial killers or mass murderers carrying out the "will of god."Objectivist don't demoralize or destroy individuals by telling them they aren't worthy, that they should feel guilty, and that they're nothing in the eyes of a fictious being.

No, you have to be christian to do those things.


You certainly are not foolish enough to think only christians do these things..... or are you?

Reply #24 Top
And how do you know this?


How do you know it is not?
Reply #25 Top
how silly. Why did you call it gay marriage when you decided to start this thread? You know why? Because what you're talking about is gay marriage hence the term gay marriage. Why would you think of messing with such a concise precise description of something? 2 gay homos get married. They're gay. They're married. Gay's are married. Gay marriage. !!???!!!


Do we call marriage between a man and a woman a straight marriage? Or a marriage between two Black people a Black marriage?