COL Gene COL Gene

Exploding Two Conservative Myths

▼

Exploding Two Conservative Myths

from JoeUser Forums


When I listened to Ron Paul being interviewed on Meet the Press and while watching the Republican debates, two of the most fundamental conservative axioms we hear from Republicans were shown to be fabrications.

First is an individual make better spending choices then government.

Second is that government spending is ineffective and wasteful.

Spending Choices

Does anyone believe that if all or most spending choices were made by individuals that they would say I need to spend money to help replace that tank the 1st Armored Division needs? I will repair the section of I95 between, mile marker X and Y in George. Baby Carol Smith needs formula today and I will buy it for her. We need another border guard to stop illegals and possibly terrorists from crossing into the U.S.

The truth is none of those and many other choices that are essential for our country to survive and prosper would be made by individuals. The spending choices must be made by BOTH individuals to provide for individual needs but the needs of our society and to insure our security and to facilitate commerce, banking, law enforcement and many other items must be made collectively by government.

That is not to say that some spending choices by government, like to build the bridge in Alaska where about 50 people lived, are the best choices. However if the choice were to repair a bridge that enabled tens of thousands to get to work each day that spending choice would be sound and could be essential.

Government spending is Wasteful

In most cases when the government spends tax dollars that money returns to the economy and helps individuals and business. If the Federal Government buys that tank the 1st Armored Division needs, Americans are put to work and the companies that make the tank earn a profit. That helps the people who own the stock of the companies who make and assemble that tank. It also provides something we NEED to protect our freedom. If the Federal government adds that Border Guard, that person spends the salary they are paid from taxes and that helps the economy. An expenditure the government makes that does not help our people is the interest on the debt that is paid to foreign investors. That tax money does not return to our economy.

If an individual takes their tax cut and invests it in a business that employs people outside the U.S. that investment takes money from our economy. In that case the spending choice by an individual harms the economy. Thus these two GOP axioms above are not true and it is time the American Voters understand the true nature of Federal spending. We do need to pay for our spending and STOP deficit spending! The GOP is supporting political ideas that are NOT in agreement with the majority of Americans. As a Republican I can not understand HOW the GOP got so far from the mainstream of the American People. Most Republicans can not complete a sentence without using the word “Conservative”. The majority of Americans are NOT Conservatives.
politics
51,849 views 186 replies
Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top

No it is because countries like China use what amounts to slave labor and pay NOTHING for that labor. They exploit women and children and ignore the most basic safety needs. They take the property rights of others manipulate their currency values and use dangerous cheep materials to make their products. Our government allows then to destroy both the health and safety of our consumers and the jobs of our workers.
End of quote

How the Chinese have such cheap products is irrelevant to this discussion.  The net result is that their labor is cheaper than ours and American consumers shop on price and thus force American companies to hire on price to compete.

Should our goverment do something about this? Probably. But don't blame American companies for doing the exact same thing American consumers are doing - going with the cheapest product.

Reply #52 from JoeUser Forums Top
Have to put off that 52 inch HD TV?
End of quote


Actually, I live in an area where the median income is about $24,000/year, and I'm one of three people I know personally with a TV smaller than 32 inches.

The people I know are not rich.

And I drive a vehicle worth almost $10k, and it is one of the cheaper vehicles among my friends.

The truth is, the middle class may be "suffering" in some parts of the country, but it is likely because of their excess, NOT Bush's policies.
Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top
gid i am going to beat gene to this and no i don't mean it.



you have to be lieing because the democrats keep saying that the middle class is getting worse and worse. and it is all brads fault. sorry brad.
Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gideon, I feel for ya buddy but $24k is not middle class. The median household income in the US is over $45k now.
Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top
According to Wiki the median for family in L-Town is $38,594. $24K sounds really low.

Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top
According to Wiki the median for family in L-Town is $38,594. $24K sounds really low.
End of quote


When I checked the area, they said the median income for the area is $24k. You have to remember the high percentage of jobs in this area at WalMart, quick stops, etc. Even the nursing home south of us only pays $8/hour for CNA's


Actually, it says the median household income is $27 on that article, TW. It says the median FAMILY income is $38 (since most married families are 2 income, that would seem about right). It further puts the per capita income at $13, but because there are a lot of retirees, that seems normal.


So I may have confused another figure for the $24k, but I was only $3k below the mark...lol!

Brad,

I realize $24K isn't middle class. My point was that people WELL below middle class are enjoying these luxuries, people that Col Gene insists are suffering.

To use a direct illustration, there's a young couple from this area who are currently out of work, who are complaining about their situation. They have two vehicle payments; one is $500/month, the other is $700/month. They have a $200/month payment on a trailer. They have a motorcycle with I don't know how much of a payment. Then you have to figure in credit cards, the oh-so-important big screen and stereo, and there you go. These people pay more for their TOYS than I pay for all of our bills put together. The wife is barely out of high school and has work experience only in fast food, the husband was a police officer, but decided it didn't suit him (after being a corrections officer and deciding it didn't suit him), but neither thinks their lifestyle is remotely excessive.
Reply #57 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply By: Gideon MacLeishPosted: Friday, December 28, 2007
Have to put off that 52 inch HD TV?
Actually, I live in an area where the median income is about $24,000/year, and I'm one of three people I know personally with a TV smaller than 32 inches.


I have no idea where you live but that not even close to the area where I live. CNN just reported that in the past 7 years the American Consumer has been forced to pay an additional $1.3 TRILLION dollars because of higher energy prices. They also said that is far more of a tax increase then democrats are talking about and this hits all income groups including the low and middle income families. The report also indicated that because of the sizeable increase in energy, the pressure on middle and low income families has been significant. The only economic group that is not suffering from the higher energy prices is the wealthy. Although they also are paying more it does not harm their ability to pay their bills and live the same life style!

A one bedroom apartment in the suburban Philadelphia area is $700-800 per month and that does not include utilities, TV or Phone. An apartment for a family is over $1100 per month plus utilities. To be able to live on $24,000 is a JOKE!
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top
To be able to live on $24,000 is a JOKE!
End of quote


maybe but you are a bigger joke.
Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top
Actually, it says the median household income is $27 on that article, TW. It says the median FAMILY income
End of quote


According to Wiki the median for family in L-Town is $38,594. $24K sounds really low.
End of quote


Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top
A one bedroom apartment in the suburban Philadelphia area is $700-800 per month and that does not include utilities, TV or Phone. An apartment for a family is over $1100 per month plus utilities. To be able to live on $24,000 is a JOKE!
End of quote


Colonel,

When you document the deaths in mass numbers from starvation in Philadelphia, I will believe you. Until then, you completely lack credibility, as people CAN and DO live on the numbers that you insist are "starvation wages" in all parts of the country.

TW,

I was going with the median household income (a different number, yes, I know...and I admittedly missed by $3k), but my point holds. I know a heck of a lot of people making $8 an hour who have 52 inch screen TV's, cable, and PS3's. Yes, they're in debt up to their eyeballs to get them, but that was a personal choice. Nobody twisted their arms.
Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top
When you document the deaths in mass numbers from starvation in Philadelphia, I will believe you. Until then, you completely lack credibility, as people CAN and DO live on the numbers that you insist are "starvation wages" in all parts of the country.


That was NOT the issue. It is what it takes to live. The $24,000 figure is not even close in the area that I have lived and that is what I know from my experience. I guess on that $24,000 you can also afford $10-12,000 for health insurance as well. WHAT BS!

I was going with the median household income (a different number, yes, I know...and I admittedly missed by $3k), but my point holds. I know a heck of a lot of people making $8 an hour who have 52 inch screen TV's, cable, and PS3's. Yes, they're in debt up to their eyeballs to get them, but that was a personal choice. Nobody twisted their arms.


If a person is making $8 per hour they can not live in the U.S. with the best possible choices. That is a FACT!
Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top
. It is what it takes to live.
End of quote


Right. It is what it takes to live. Meaning, they're dead. SHOW ME THE BODIES!

If a person is making $8 per hour they can not live in the U.S. with the best possible choices.
End of quote


If you assume the "best possible choices" to be brand new car, surround sound system, big screen TV, state of the art computer, etc, you're absolutely right.

People making $24K a year fall into two categories, Gene. Those who will never make more than that and those who eventually will. Those who will we don't need to worry about helping, they'll find their way out. Those who won't we really shouldn't help, as they make the choices that keep them in that position.

You're absolutely right about $24 k not being much money, Gene. No question about it. But people can and DO live off of it, regularly. Not comfortably, no, but they make it. In my experience, the discomfort is what propels them to make more.

When I have had rough times with work, I have been appalled at the number of people who felt the solution was to give us money or things. Honestly, I wanted a better JOB, not things or money.
Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you assume the "best possible choices" to be brand new car, surround sound system, big screen TV, state of the art computer, etc, you're absolutely right.


NO I mean to have a place to live, food on the table and the basics!
Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top

That was NOT the issue. It is what it takes to live. The $24,000 figure is not even close in the area that I have lived and that is what I know from my experience. I guess on that $24,000 you can also afford $10-12,000 for health insurance as well. WHAT BS!
End of quote

And yet people aren't dying in the streets. How do you reconcile that?

Reply #65 from JoeUser Forums Top
I HAVE COME HERE TO CHEW BUBBLE GUM AND KICK BUTT. AND I AM ALL OUT OF BUBBLE GUM.
Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top
NO I mean to have a place to live, food on the table and the basics!
End of quote


If they have no food on the table, they're dying. Duh. Please show me a disporporionately high number of homeless, or people dying in the streets. SUPPORT your assertions, Col.

My premise was and is that you CAN live on $24,000 a year. My evidence: the millions of families that do it everyday. Yes, it is sucky, and yes it means foregoing a lot of things you want (or hocking yourself up to your eyeballs at the local rent to own, but it can be done). Your premise is that they cannot. Your evidence: caps and bold typeface.

Which is more compelling?
Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top
ok now either gene is lying or brad and gid is.

i guess the only way to find out for sure is for someone(gene) needs a pair of those truth glasses.
Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top
ok now either gene is lying or brad and gid is.
End of quote


No, I would never accuse Gene of lying.

When he shows me the bodies, I will apologize.
Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply By: Gideon MacLeishPosted: Sunday, December 30, 2007
NO I mean to have a place to live, food on the table and the basics!
If they have no food on the table, they're dying. Duh. Please show me a disporporionately high number of homeless, or people dying in the streets. SUPPORT your assertions, Col.My premise was and is that you CAN live on $24,000 a year. My evidence: the millions of families that do it everyday. Yes, it is sucky, and yes it means foregoing a lot of things you want (or hocking yourself up to your eyeballs at the local rent to own, but it can be done). Your premise is that they cannot. Your evidence: caps and bold typeface.Which is more compelling?


In the two areas where I have lived in the past several years a family CAN NOT LIVE on $24,000 PER YEAR!!!!!!!!!
Reply #70 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply By: Gideon MacLeishPosted: Sunday, December 30, 2007
ok now either gene is lying or brad and gid is.
No, I would never accuse Gene of lying.When he shows me the bodies, I will apologize.


THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS THAT PEOPLE WITH INCOMES AT THAT LEVEL RECEIVE HELP. THAT DOES NOT MEAN KIDS DO NOT GO TO BED HUNGRY. WE KNOW MANY CHILDREN DO NOT HAVE MADICAL INSURANCE. There have been stories of seniors being unable to afford heat. Some have frozen to death. Some have been moved into shelters. There will be more of that this winter with heating oil prices up over $.85 per gallon over last year.

Compare these poor people to people like Cheney with his $1.7 Million dollar income last year. He got more of a tax cut then these poor families have to live on. There is something very wrong with that and yes there are stories about the children and elderly without food. Look at all the soup kitchens run by churches. I worked for a food bank in Florida and there were many times the demand was do high that our shelves were empty. I was president of a non profit corporation that provided low and very low income seniors with housing and helped low and very low income home owners fix their roofs and plumbing. We always had more people that needed help then we have resources to provide the help. We had a waiting list of 300 for the 72 low income apartments we had available. This was in a city were we had developments of multi million dollar homes and banks on every corner. The cars of choice were a BMW or Mercedes-Benz with a sprinkling of Rolls Royce’s. Do not tell me the rich can not afford a little moiré in taxes. The truth is the do not WANT to pay more because of pure GREED. Look up the meaning of GREED and you will see it fits what the wealthy and Bush have done!
Reply #71 from JoeUser Forums Top
More simple unvarnished class warfare BS from Anecdotal Gene.
Reply #72 from JoeUser Forums Top
My Bible's dictionary defines lust as an "inordinate desire or craving." Likewise, the word covet is "to inordinately desire unjust gain or another's property."[1] Webster defines lust: "1: sexual desire often to an intense or unrestrained degree; 2: an intense longing."[2] In my opinion, when searching Scripture on this topic, to lust and to covet are generally synonymous. The first well-known reference to coveting is found in the Ten Commandments: "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor" (Exodus 20.17, NIV unless otherwise noted). Clearly, coveting encompasses more than sexual desire.



the real word you looking for gene is lust. and this is what you are doing. oh your doing supposedly to help others. but, what you are really doing is saying i am not as rich as brad so brad has to give up his property so that i can be as rich as him.


lots of people live off of 24,000 or less even in the areas where you lived. as i told you i can live off of a 1000 a month. perhaps not as well as you do but i don't really care. if i really wanted to be rich i could be by the end of next year.
Reply #73 from JoeUser Forums Top
Here is some more Class warfare:

Local Report for Long Island: Executive Summary
An estimated 259,000 Long Islanders turn to a soup kitchen, food pantry or emergency shelter for help with food each year. 93,000 of them are children.
Going Hungry During Lunch Hour
21 December 2007
by Anna Kramer


A Boston law firm celebrates the holiday season with an Oxfam America Hunger Banquet--part of the fall 2007 Fast for a World Harvest--where participants get first-hand experience of the vast differences between those who have plenty to eat and those who have none.
OLDER AMERICANS ARE GOING HUNGRY
Oread Daily http://oreaddaily.blogspot.com/
It shouldn't be like this.
A recent study found that one in three older New Yorkers lived in fear
of going hungry. Many didn't know where they would find their next
meal.
The Council of Senior Centers and Services says their study in New
York City found that 35 percent of those surveyed worried that they
would not have enough to eat.


By AMY CALDER
Staff Writer 11/21/2007



enlarge Staff photo by David Leaming
IN NEED: The Rev. Arlene Tully inside the Greater Waterville Area Food Pantry in the Pleasant Street United Methodist Church on Tuesday. The food pantry and others are experiencing an increase in recipients due to unemployment and a decrease in federal donations for people in need.

from the Morning Sentinel
By AMY CALDER
Staff Writer
What is most heartbreaking to Ted Van Duysen is seeing more and more elderly people coming into his food pantry in the tiny town of Liberty.
"They can barely walk into the building," Van Duysen said.
Van Duysen has run the AM VETS Post 150 pantry for 12 years and is finding that an increasing number of people are having a hard time keeping their homes warm and feeding themselves because of the high costs of fuel, gasoline and other necessities.
"All of a sudden, I'm getting people that never even showed up at my pantry -- that I've never even heard of," he said.
"It's not been a very good two years but we keep trying; we keep plugging away."
The problem is everywhere, according to Jane Couture, director of the Greater Waterville Area Food Bank, located at the Pleasant Street United Methodist Church in Waterville.
Like Van Duysen, Couture says donations of food from the federal government are way down, prices of fuel and gas are skyrocketing, many people are out of work, and more and more people are hungry and asking for food. People who normally give to food banks are finding they can no longer afford to do that.
Reply #74 from JoeUser Forums Top
lots of people live off of 24,000 or less even in the areas where you lived. as i told you i can live off of a 1000 a month. perhaps not as well as you do but i don't really care. if i really wanted to be rich i could be by the end of next year.


They exist not live. You and those like you are a SAD excuse for Americans. Let’s look at the definition of GREED, "Excessive desire for acquiring or having; desire for more then one needs” YES that is what the wealthy are who want to keep all their wealth-- GREEDY!!!!!
Reply #75 from JoeUser Forums Top
Again, nothing but anecdotes, bald claims & assumptions, no evidence.