If mainstream american supported the KKK tacitly in the same way the Arab street supports terrorism I would have to only say President David Duke. That is my point. Where is Duke now BTW? Oh yeah, jail. While the left certainly didn't nail the coffin shut on the KKK that simply would not have been possible if the rest of country had been backing them

in fact, mainstream america DID tacitly support the kkk. to the extent that the klan that operated with virtual impugnity during the 1980s. dont kid yourself into thinking otherwise. a videotape of klan members killing 5 people and injuring 11 others in broad daylight was shown on national news in 1979, yet no one firing the murder weapons was convicted for murder.

the klan was considered dead until the mid-1920s when it came back with a vengeance, gaining membership estimated at minimum 3 million to as many as 9 million. it was powerful enough that klan kandidates for governor took office in 4 states (two of which were california and oregon).

throughout the 60s and 70s, klan murderers were acquitted in cases that have been reoopened only in the past 10 years including the terrorist bombing of a church in mississippi in 1964 and the assassination of medgar evers in 63.

eisenhower attempted to sway earl warren's decision in brown vs board with a whispered plea at a dinner in the whitehouse. j edgar hoover focused the fbis efforts against martin luther king jr instead of the klan

Suggested replies, cut and paste as necessary:

you forgot one...

thats a much more intelligent and logical response than ive been able to formulate to date. thanks

Draginol, there are places inthe United States where the KKK does indeed have the support of the local populace and the local law enforcement.

Cheers

David
After reading your post, I fail to see why you feel understanding the terrorists motivations is required. It seems that you do feel it is required given your quote of my statement. The closest answer I can find in your post is that attempting to understand the motivation is to assuage some undefined guilt that US citizens may be feeling.

If you continued to read my post, and I'm sure you did, you also saw that I believe motivation can be useful to prevent or deter future occurences. But that doesn't negate the fact that the immediate threat to life must be stopped. And that is best acheived by "Who did it?, Where are they?, How can we get them?"

I think of it as similar, in a way, to triage. If a patient's heart has stopped beating, you do what is neccesary to get the heartbeat back and save his life. Then comes the search for the cause to prevent future occurences. In the case of triage, neither invalidates the other, but, to use the comparable terms in this discussion, methodology must come before motivation.

Some people give the impression that the motivation is the only factor that counts and is the only one worth considering. Anyone who thinks otherwise is "beyond stupid; it's stupid, multiplied by obtuse, raised to the power of ignorant" to quote your words.

Suggested replies, cut and paste as necessary: you forgot one... thats a much more intelligent and logical response than ive been able to formulate to date. thanks

I second that.

Do I believe we should kowtow to the terrorists demands? No. It's not that simple.

You advocated giving in to bin Laden's demands in your post.

In a recent poll guess what 70% of Europeans viewed as the biggest threat to world peace?

I like how you characterize American public opinion as useless and European public opinion as insightful.

500,000 lives lost during the Iraqi embargo.

I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate. Also, doesn't Saddam bear the primary responsibility for deaths due to the embargo?

Also, doesn't Saddam bear the primary responsibility for deaths due to the embargo?

Sure he does. But I really doubt that matters to the people who are looking for motivation speeches to recruit new mass murderers.
I think David had a really good post. It seems fairly obvious that re-locating the Israeli state to Florida would be a small price to pay, would create huge peace dividends, and wouldn't really make much of a difference in Ft. Lauterdale. (and Dirtwater, FL could use the help, frankly). Besides, Israel where it is faces a growing problem, namely that the Philistines who want to live in the same land are reproducing at a much higher rate than are the Israelis. The Israeli position there is becoming more untenable every day. Not that they couldn't still kick a bunch of Arab ass in 6 days, of course... But who wants to live with that sort of stress?

WOW!!!!

Impressive read.

St. hubbins - Whenever you feel the need to write a page and a half as a reply to something squelch it. Post your own counter article and link to it. I warned you about this business on my blog once before and had only recently taken you *off* of my blacklist for doing this same shit. I do not care if you want to disagree, thats fine but these are *comments* not your blog. Learn the difference. Enjoy another couple of weeks of my netiquette blacklist.

Do the long comments eat up your alloted storage space?

Do the long comments eat up your alloted storage space?

No, but they do annoy and bore the crap out of me, hell the original article wasn't that frigging long! I warned that guy before. Additionally he annoyed me by saying he was leaving for good only to renege and come back about a week later. Way to show your level of committment.

Some people like to latch on to popular blogs to push their own agenda that is often only tangentially related to the original article.

Understanding ones enemies isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it shouldn't have too much to do with what you end up doing about it.  When the KKK lynches some poor black guy for whistling at a white woman we don't suddenly believe that that the fault somehow was with the victim for not being "understanding" about the local cultures. And we rightfully feel shame and outrage when we hear that such incidents used to happen in some parts of the United States and that the perpetrators got away with it regularly.

There is a..tendancy by some people who live such easy lives that they cannot imagine anything worse than the United States. When someone clucks out about how Europeans see the US as the greatest threat to the world, one can only feel thankful that they live in such an insulated environment as to be totally detached from the real dangers and horrors that lurk beyond their pampered lives (and ironically will claim, without a hint of irony, at how ignorant Americans are about the rest of the world).

There is nothing noble about Al Qaeda and their ilk. Those who have bothered to actually research these terrorist groups have consistenly found the same thing. They're just a bunch of bigoted, murderous hate mongers that share far more in common with the KKK or the SS than some imagined rebel against the excesses of westernization. 

The difference between the Columbine murderers and Al Qaeda has more to do with the location of their birth than any other factor.  Not all cultures or ideaologies are equal. Some are hateful, disgusting, and evil (and I say evil despite being an atheist) and deserve to be in the trash heap of history. 

When the KKK lynches some poor black guy for whistling at a white woman we don't suddenly believe that that the fault somehow was with the victim for not being "understanding" about the local cultures.

I love it. Your idiocy is unsurpassed. You have the dullest mind of any contributer this side of Marvin Cooley. You make greywar look like George Will. THIS ANALOGY IS DISGUSTING. You are blind and irresponsible, because you think 'loving your country' is more important than 'knowing your country'. If this is the case, you are just a pawn on the board, a mere nationalist no-nothing who runs around with your self-righteous, red-white-and-blue 'values' but never realizes how fake they are. The U.S. is not that innocent black victim whose only crime is 'whistling at a white woman'. We are the most powerful nation in the world, and we haven't done right by the middle east.

There is a..tendancy by some people who live such easy lives that they cannot imagine anything worse than the United States. When someone clucks out about how Europeans see the US as the greatest threat to the world, one can only feel thankful that they live in such an insulated environment as to be totally detached from the real dangers and horrors that lurk beyond their pampered lives (and ironically will claim, without a hint of irony, at how ignorant Americans are about the rest of the world).

Europeans are pampered and Americans are not? Puh-leeez! It doesn't take an intelligent, experienced, and politically savy American to see that the invasion of Iraq was a far more despicable and horrible crime against humanity than the precise and confined assault upon the a couple of our buildings, offices and airliners. Never mind which came first or whether the later was purportedly a response to the former. Never mind the concocted lies about Saddam's impending threat to humanity. We were responsible for leading the world against terrorism, and we failed. More specifically, Bush failed. That is what makes the United States under Bush the most dangerous force in the world. A terrorist act is one thing. A hasty and poorly executed invasion of an ethnically fragmented country with which we have no business is a travesty on a completely different level.

Not all cultures or ideaologies are equal.

Okay, so why don't you tell me which cultures are good and which are not so good. Let's do this by nation. Since they are so unequal, it shouldn't be hard to rank the good and the evil cultures here. You're not just judging the governments or the particular extremist sects, I want you to look at the souls of the people and tell me whose are cleaner.

America
Syria
Australia
France
Britain
Iraq
Iran
Spain
Israel
China
Russia
India

So, when are you going over, or have you already? We, the Americans, in particular the people of the U.S A., a country founded on Judeo-Christian principals, which says it all as far as how clean our souls are, try our best to play fair and square with the nations of the world. We have been dealing with racial problems in our own borders for some time, and things are working out alright. The doors of opportunity are wide open for every one of our citezens, and that fact is key in us getting along. In our international dealings we work with the governments that we feel best represent the people therein. This is not an easy 'game' (if you will) to play. However, in our desire to be open with everyone, we until recently have kept our borders quite open. Our schools, our way of governing, our goodwill to all has been easily attained. I will remind you that we are a government for the people, by the people, and of the people. The enemies of 'our' government are neither elected nor substantiated by any means other than misleading hatred and murderous acts on their own to silence the voice of reason that cries out to all. Happy Memorial Day, and to all a good night.

a country founded on Judeo-Christian principals, which says it all as far as how clean our souls are

assuming thats a true statement (a dubious assumption), countries that are founded on other than judeo-christian principles are somehow inferior by comparison?

Saint Ying: You know what's really idiotic? Name-calling the owner of the site. Takes a pretty "dull mind" to keep doing that.

Saint Ying: You know what's really idiotic? Name-calling the owner of the site. Takes a pretty "dull mind" to keep doing that.

Not a dull mine, but a mind of reckless ecstacy with one greatest desire: the perfection of the American spirit through the systematic reduction of the conservative menace, intellectually, spiritually, and through a course of torture and genocide, or until we can extract and eliminate all conservative elements from the burnt hulls of false and diminished humans, the unworthy, they who must bleed eternally in the cages of pain, milked for blood and butchered to feed my cats.

Not a dull mine, but a mind of reckless ecstacy with one greatest desire: the perfection of the American spirit through the systematic reduction of the conservative menace, intellectually, spiritually, and through a course of torture and genocide, or until we can extract and eliminate all conservative elements from the burnt hulls of false and diminished humans, the unworthy, they who must bleed eternally in the cages of pain, milked for blood and butchered to feed my cats.

Typical unecessary wordiness.  Are you trying to stun us all with your pseudo-intellect?  Because you're failing miserably.  Get over yourself.

My apologies, Greywar, for trolling up your thread. 

Saint Ying: Then you might as well give up your quest now. Because you can only carry out your desire on this site as long as the "conservative menace" allows you to do so.

Drahmagrl, if I was interesting in impressing people, I wouldn't need a 'pseudo-intellect'. I am quite familiar with the real thing. But it is imperative that the ignorant and disgraceful be punished for erroneous thinking. If they are not punished and humiliated, they will make the same mistakes over and over again. If they learn that their flawed thinking, demonstrated in analogies such as Draginol's, is not acceptable to discussion, they will decipher the wounds upon their pride as a stern reproach from above, and they will be impelled to reform their ways. Because of the grave and distracting ruckus that he has caused, Draginol will probably never make the mistake of suggesting that the U.S.'s need to understand the diverse problems and threats of the Arab World is as negligable as a black lynching victim's need to understand the hateful racism of his white murderer... (Although the latter statement too is simple-minded. Understanding racism in America has been key to neutralizing it in many corners of society. It is of immense strategic importance. If the word 'understanding' seems too unmanly, we can substitute empiricism or observed knowledge - knowledge is love and power simultaneously, but it never fails the cause of justice.) And if Draginol will never make that mistake again, I have done the message board a great service, cleansing it of one black and sinful notion that will never be heard from again.

But it is imperative that the ignorant and disgraceful be punished for erroneous thinking.

That'd be why you have a negative score, then.

If they are not punished and humiliated, they will make the same mistakes over and over again.

Obviously not a lesson you've learned yourself.

Saint Ying: I don't think you realize how out of touch with reality you are.  When CBS News interviews me next week, I'll be sure to keep in mind your words though. .  You apparently don't realize that intelligence has nothing to do with having opinions that correspond to your particular view points.

The FACTS in this particular discussion are readily available to those who actually wish to research them rather than wallow in their own anti-American ignorance.  Groups like Al Qaeda aren't noble. They're just hate groups similar to the KKK and the reasons they strike have little to do with the imagined evil deeds of the United States you dream of (or real bad deeds for that matter).  Al Qaeda and their ilk are violent racist organizations that despise our culture for what it stands for and wishes to eradicate it from the face of the earth through violence -- first in the middle east and later throughout the world.

The US doesn't need to "understand" Al Qaeda any more than the US needed to understand Japan's motivations for attacking Pearl Harbor. It is up to the one who is liable to suffer the most to learn from history.  The atomic bombing of Hiroshima (and Nagasaki) are the end points that trace their beginnings to Pearl Harbor. One can argue that the deaths of over a million Japanese civilians was an overreaction to the loss of 2,500 people (mostly sailors) in a military base attack.  But ultimately, that's not something Americans have to worry about. It is the one doing the attacking that should be reading up on history.  The reaction to 9/11 is signifcant and far-reaching and should be an object lesson to those would would perpetuate terrorism against the United States. For after all, there have been zero terrorist attacks against the US since 9/11 while on the other hand Al Qaeda is living in caves in the mountains of Pakistan, Saddam is gone, and Taliban now without a country to rule. 

From the US's point of view, therefore, there is little evidence to show why the US needs to "understand" the question "why do they hate you". I don't care. It might be interesting in an academic sense but on a practical level, it doesn't matter. It never matters. If you knew anything of history, you would recognize that the why someone attacks you never matters. It only matters that they did. Nation states aren't individuals. They are collectives. They react as collectives. They cannot do otherwise and never do.

It is far more effective for the middle east to clean up its culture of death and violence than try to convince Americans that it somehow "had it coming" because the US supported Israel or because it had a US base in Saudi Arabia or some other lame ass argument for justifying the mass murder of innocent people. Let us remember, after all, that 9/11 was PLANNED during the Clinton administration who was about as benevolent to the Muslim world as can be realistically expected.

But all that aside, I can find far more justification as to why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor than to muddle through the bullshit arguments as for why 9/11 occurred. Pearl Harbor was attacked in response to specific US actions with specific goals in mind.  By contrast, 9/11 happened for very nebulous reasons with very nebulous (and unrealistic) goals. And at the end of the day, Al Qaeda is no government in waiting. It's just another pathetic violent hate group more akin to a KKK out of control than any sort of legitimate organization.

If you were more intelligent, you would realize that your ability to convince people of the validity of your point of view rests on two things:

a) How persuasive you can make your arguments

and

your ability to get those arguments out into the general population. 

You fail on the first item because you make personal insults towards those who disagree with you even when they obviously are not ignorant. You may not agree with me but I obviously do know the subject matter. I don't really need your validation to know that I'm familiar with these matters and qualified to speak with some knowledge on them from having spent years following these events and researching the backgrounds.

You fail on the second part because by attacking people like me, who control sites like this, your ability to get the word out is diminished substantially. I can make you disappear from this site with a single click. You have nothing to gain by intentionally antagonizing me. And in fact, you rely on the very tolerance that you show so little of in order to even get your word out.  It is that tolerance that allows you to have many people exposed to your opinions rather than being just another lunatic on a fringe site like Democratic Underground spewing their extremist drivel on their forums that few normal people read.

Obviously not a lesson you've learned yourself.

Give it a rest drahmagrl, I have nothing against you or your kind, although my only criticism is that you had ought to use your words more powerfully and more freely, possibly in defiance of codes of 'proper' internet discourse, and certainly it is not good to criticize those neo-romantics among us who choose to use lots of words and lots of powerful words, while you yourself only respond with common one liners that are next to meaningless.

That'd be why you have a negative score, then.

Never have too much faith in the system, it is less worthy of respect than the lowliest of men. Of course I wouldn't expect you to agree, being someone who is apparently indebted to the system for holding you in such high esteem.

Out of respect for your blog and subsequent threads, Greywar, I'm not going to respond to any more of St Yings's lunacy.  Sorry that it went this far.

I'm just waiting for the excuse to ban him entirely.