Mumblefratz Mumblefratz

The MVL Rulebook

The MVL Rulebook

This is where we will keep all the rules used for the Metaverse League (MVL). The point is to have a single place where all rules are defined and so there's a single place where people can refer to resolve all question.

I will continually update this OP to reflect the current state of rules that we have all agreed to. The point is to make this as simple and concise as possible. As we have seen argument and upset occurs when different people have different interpretations of what has been agreed. Keeping these rules as simple and short as possible will help reduce potential conflict.



Rule 1) Rule changes are not allowed in the middle of a round. If an unanticipated situation develops in the middle of a round all effort should be made to deal with it as consistently as possible based on current rules and precedent. In the hopefully rare cases this is not possible the Commissioner will make an arbitrary ruling on how the matter will be resolved for the current round. Once the round is over then the issue can be revisited and a more permanent solution can be decided by the members of the League. Note that this arbitrary ruling can only be made by the Commissioner. Also the Commissioner is the only person that can grant an exception to any rule, but this power should be used judiciously.

Rule 2) Team Size. People may join the League and start playing at pretty much anytime. In the middle of a round a new player should be randomly assigned a new team by either the Commissioner or Vice Commissioner. The only limitation is that at any point in time no team should have more than one more player than any other team.

Also people may have to announce that they can't submit during a round. This can be treated using the scoring rules related to non-submission or if it's early in the round the teams could be re-balanced by the Commissioner. The decision to re-balance or not, and if so who to move, is soley the decision of the Commissioner.

The ideal team size is 5 since it provides some protection against an unforeseen non-submittal without being too unweildly. Team size at the beginning of a round should never be less than 4 or more than 6.

Rule 3) Honor System. Each round of play consists of a game (or games) of randomly selected settings and victory conditions. Very few of the required settings can be verified, namely galaxy size and victory condition. The fact that all other settings cannot be verified requires the league to operate on the honor system.

From time to time various versions of the game may exhibit a bug that temporarily allows some particular exploit. When and if this happens people should make sure the league is aware of the situation but no rule will be made to prohibit the particular exploit other than the same honor system that ensures everyone is playing the same game.

A final point about the honor system is that abuse of the honor system doesn't debase a single game played by a single player but debases every game played by every player. When seen in this light I'm sure that no one would be tempted to risk shaking the foundation of the league just to gain a miniscule benefit by intentionally bending a setting or rule. Also everyone should realize that honest mistakes do happen and if occasionally someone makes a mistake in a required game setting that it's no real big deal.

A corollary to the fact that only galaxy size and victory condition can be verified, along with the practice of taking a game submitted to the metaverse but not submitted to the league as a persons "intended" league submission, results in the rule that people should not have games submitted to the metaverse under their league character that might be confused with a legitimate league game. Note that clearly once a player has made a submission for the current round there can be no such confusion.

Honor System Addendum

The deliberate and determined use by a Player, with full knowledge and intent, of repeatedly and excessively, exploiting bugs, quirks, or other miscellanea in a game to achieve an outcome not normally possible is hereby prohibited in the MVL.

Rule 4) Reported Difficulty Levels and Race Customization in MVL Games

Every MVL player is honor bound to ensure that the effective difficulty of any game they submit is accurately represented by the games posted difficulty. To support this requirement the following guidance is provided.

External modification of any game related files are prohibited in MVL games.

In-game modification of opponent characteristics is prohibited in MVL games. The only choices allowed are the selection of opponents from among the default standard races and default custom race and the selection of their difficulty levels.

All opponent starting relations must be set to "Unknown".

DA games must be set to Allow Surrenders.

Rule 5) MVL Member Behavior

In the case where a MVL member has been found to be cheating, being overly disruptive, or detrimental to the League in some form, the commissioner is free to levy the following punishments as he deems necessary and appropriate. Such punishments may include; the loss of a team Captaincy or other MVL Administrative Position, the loss of the Player's points earned in a particular Round, forcing the Player to sit out a Round, or any other temporary punishment deemed appropriate.

For anything deemed worthy of a permanent ban from the league then besides the recommendation of the commissioner it should also require the consensus of the captains and other MVL administrators to make the ban permanent. Once banned then continued disruption of MVL threads and activities will be appropriately reported to forum authorities.



Scoring

A team's score consists of the sum of "base" scores plus individual and team bonus points.

Base Score

A player's base score is simply 2 points for a win of the designated type, 1 point for a win of the wrong type and 0 points otherwise. A team’s base score is the sum of the four top player base scores submitted. This is done so that a team having more players has no advantage over a team with fewer players.

There are two types of rounds that are treated slightly differently. One is a “Single Victory” type round where all players play for the same victory condition. The other is an “All Victories” type round where each team must submit at least one game of each of the 4 different victory types.

Non-Submission

In the Single Victory round if a player neglects to submit a game then there is no issue as long as the team still has at least four other players that submitted a game. However, if the team only had four players to begin with then they would be missing one potential contribution to the team’s base score. If this non-submission is pre-announced (this is highly encouraged), then either the Commissioner or Vice Commissioner may randomly select another member of the team to submit another game to count towards the teams base score.

In the case where no notice is given, if the player has a single game that fits the rounds criteria as to date, galaxy size and victory condition posted to the Metaverse but not yet submitted to the league then that game will be presumed to be submitted "automatically" to the league during the last minute of the round. If there are more than one qualifying game posted to the metaverse under the players MVL character than the game with the highest score/year ratio will be the game submitted to the league. If two or more games have identical score/year ratios then the submitted game shall be randomly selected from these games by the commissioner or vice commissioner whichever is not a memeber of the team in question. Note that players should make sure that any games that "appear" to match the current rounds criteria posted to the MV do indeed satisfy all the current rounds criteria. This can always be accomplished by simply waiting until your official has been made before posting a game to the MV that might otherwise be confused with the current MVL game.

In the case where no notice is given, and if other members of the team have other games that satisfy the round’s criteria that have already been submitted to the metaverse then either the Commissioner or Vice Commissioner may randomly select one of these games to count towards the teams base score. In this case the team should identify *all* such games that satisfy the round’s criteria for possible selection not simply the *best* such game.

If the non-submission is not pre-announced and the team has no “extra” qualifying games then the team gets credit only for the number of base scores properly submitted.

Note that a team of 5 players with two players that failed to submit a game would be in a similar situation as described above and the same rules apply. The same is true with 6 players and 3 non-submissions, etc. It is also possible for a team to be more than one submission short of the required total of 4 in which case the same rules can be applied to possibly allow the team to make up for more than one non-submission.

Finally these same rules apply in the case of an All Victories round but with an extra qualification. This extra requirement is that in an All Victories round each team is required to submit at least one game of each victory type. In this case the team may be required to use an “extra” game as described by the rules above that duplicates the victory type of an already submitted game. In this case for base scoring purposes that game would have to be considered a 1 point victory of the wrong type. Note that such a game could still receive individual and team bonus points based on the correct victory category.

Individual Bonus Points

In the case of a Single Victory round a single bonus point is granted for the 4 top scoring games and the 4 fastest games.

In the case of an All Victory round a single bonus point is given to the top score and the fastest game in each of the 4 different victory conditions.

The fastest games are determined by the number of years reported by the metaverse. Game speed ties are broken by score and score ties are broken by speed. Any games tied in both speed and score will be left unbroken and both players will receive the identical bonus.

Team Bonus Points

All team bonus points are based on the average of the team’s submitted games. Just as in the individual bonus point case only wins of the correct type are counted. The 1st place team receives 2 points and the 2nd place team receives 1 point in the following categories.

Team Score

Team Speed (speed of game reported by metaverse)

Team Submission (number of days into the round before game is submitted to the league)

Any teams tied in any team bonus category receive the same bonus. However, any fractional result is not subject to rounding and any tie must be exact.



MVL Voting Rules

1. Any MVL member can call for a vote among any number of competing proposals which must be seconded by two other MVL members to be considered official.

2. All votes will occur in the Galciv II Metaverse Leagues forum at the Core and notice must also be given in the current MVL Round thread.

3. All votes should run for a period of time specified in the OP of the voting thread. This period should be no shorter than 1 week or longer than 3 weeks. It's encouraged but not required that votes should be completed before the start of the next round of play if at all possible.

4. A valid vote requires participation by at least 50% of active MVL members. An abstention counts as participation. A proposal requires 60% or more of the cast ballots to be accepted. If less than 60% is achieved by any one proposal there will be a runoff between the two most popular options. The winner of the runoff will be the proposal that achieves a simple majority of votes cast with no quorum requirement.

5. Editing of your vote is allowed although any changes should be made in such a way as to make it obvious that a change has occured.

6. Once the time specified for the vote expires the thread will be locked to maintain an accurate record of the vote. The results of any vote are final and can only be changed by a subsequent official MVL vote.

Rules accepted by Consensus

From time to time minor issues may crop up that may not warrent the full attention of the League. In such cases a limited number of members may discuss the issue and come to some agreement. As long as no member of the league voices any objection to such an agreement and as long as such an agreement has been posted in a prominent thread (the current round thread or the MVL Rule thread) for a period of one week then that rule will be considered to be "official" by the league.

Besides any MVL member voicing an objection to the proposed rule, thereby invalidating the proposal, any member could also move to have a vote taken on the proposal which, as specified in our voting rules, requires a vote be taken as long as the motion is seconded by two other MVL members.



Last update Mar 28, 2008. Added Race Configuration Rule and Honor System Addendum

 

691,368 views 452 replies
Reply #276 Top
Admittedly, I don't play Metaverse, and I'm not in the MVL, but Mumble may remember my comments in the thread he linked, and I feel this may be an appropriate place to insert my opinion on it as well. If not, well, feel free to disregard it.

I understand that ARC is possible within the confines of the code, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be; that is, it was unintended. It makes sense that if it was intended, it would be doable from within the game itself.

I like having ARC, and I've come to use it, here and there, but I would prefer not to have it, as that would, in my mind, make the game more fair. It also seems to rob the playstyles the super abilities support from a given race and, in essence, give them to every race, which makes the game not unlike DL, where every race is almost the same. This is one reason I like TA, as the races are more clearly defined. Admittedly, you can get around this with a custom, but then again, with a custom you can't have -everything- you want, either. A prime example of this would be that most if not all of the stock races have more than the 200 or whatever it is RP worth of starting techs.

As I see it, the problem is simply this: with a custom, I can't get everything I want. With ARC, I can. Maybe this means I should want more? I don't know. It's just my take on it.

I'm aware I'm concentrating primarily on the super ability here, even though other things, for instance home system, can be changed, but in my mind that's the biggest one, and to be honest I think you're all crazy (in a good way!) for the home systems you choose anyway. In all honesty, though, one of my primary problems with ARC is that the MV does not show any of the things that have been changed. So you see someone got score X in Y years on difficulty Z in a size D galaxy with say the Krynn, but you don't know that they slapped Super Hive on them and changed the home system to, for instance, New Iconia.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, per se, other than my above points, but doesn't it make you look at the game differently, from a strategy point of view?

Admittedly, the MV doesn't show random to abundant values for planets/stars/etc, either, but that would seem to be less relevant to the MVL, as most of you, if not all of you, play by the same set of "rules" in that regard, per round.

I see that most of you don't see it as that big of a deal, and that simply means that the stock races aren't all that bad to begin with. Which brings me to the issue of whether it should be specified that you must play against the Drengin rather than the Iconians. I'm sure we would all agree that the gap between the Drengin and the Iconians is far smaller than the gap between the Iconians and a straw man. I mean, at least the Iconians get two extreme environments, right? (Wow, two defenses of the Iconian super ability on the forums in a day...how much weirder can this day get? Note-the first one wasn't me.)

As for the straw man/straw dog issue, it should seem simple enough to specify that in an MVL game you must use stock opponents. One of the selling points of the AI is that it can intelligently choose its customization point attributes/etc, so why anyone would bother trying to choose for the AI, I don't know-other than of course the straw man example, but even that is stretching it.

And, as Mumble has noted, any rule that does come up via this discussion will most probably simply be enforced by the honor system.

With all of that said, if the MVL does keep (?) ARC legal, I would personally prefer it if people could specify that they've changed things. I don't really care what color your ships are, but if you've put Super Dominator on the Torians, that's something I'd like to know. It'd also be hilarious. Not saying it should be a rule, but I'm not saying it shouldn't, either.

Just my 2bc, and, again, take it as what you will, since I don't even play here.
Reply #277 Top
Admittedly, I don't play Metaverse, and I'm not in the MVL, but Mumble may remember my comments in the thread he linked, and I feel this may be an appropriate place to insert my opinion on it as well. If not, well, feel free to disregard it.

Thank you for your input and yes I remember your comments in that thread and as well as that you came up with the formula for the cost of building upgrades.

In any case comments from non-MVL members are appreciated.

Also I'd be lax if I didn't say that you should give some thought to the metaverse in general and to the MVL specifically. We generally have a great time playing games that we would probably not choose to select if left up to ourselves. It also gives you an interesting thing to look forward to each month and really requires a very small time commitment.

However I do have to warn you that this can become addictive and you could find yourself playing 10 games just to polish up a particular strategy. In any case whether or not this interests you now keep it in mind because it may appeal to you later.
Reply #278 Top
Ah yes, we did talk about the setting of Relations; though i think we had agreed to that they should always be set to Unknown. Anyhow, I'm for that.

That's how I remember it as well, although I guess I negleted to write it down at the time. Also on a similar vein we did take a vote and decide that DA should have "Surrenders always Allowed" which is a default settings thing as well so these two things are in a similar category. Finally if some rule comes out of this current discussion even if it's only to prohibit ARC for opponents it falls under this category as well.

In any case Silver had mentioned that he will be taking a week off in Las Vegas. I see no great rush to resolve this issue instantly and think that any resolution can await Silver's return. I'd still like to let this topic percolate a bit because I feel we really haven't heard from everyone that has strong feelings about this topic, but there's still plenty of time in the round left for this to be resolved before the start of the next round.
Reply #279 Top
On the whole, I guess I would be slightly in favor of a "no straw-dogs" rule (and strongly in favor of it if the league member who raised the issue would be satisfied with this compromise). ARC is one thing, but that would seem to grant a much larger advantage, though I've never used it and so can't speak from personal experience.

Additionally, banning straw-dog AIs, in my opinion, enhances ARC. For instance, in the current game you could make a reasonable argument for a customized good Korx with good opponents. That way you'd get a diplomatic bonus and trade bonus with the other empires, who tend to be less aggressive to start with. With straw dog AIs, there are ways around this where you could just go neutral or evil for the larger benefits you could get that way, without having to worry so much about getting conquered.

I think generally something that encourages someone to consider playing as morally virtous Korx is a good thing. That's very much a subjective, aesthetic preference. An equally subjective opinion is that somehow it seems more fair to customize yourself than it is to "customize" (cripple) your opponents. I do rather feel both to be the case.
Reply #280 Top
Lots of perspectives on this issue. I find the flexibility granted in race selection and configuration an attractive feature of the MVL. It makes the games more interesting and encourages the use of race setup to the fullest extent. Pidgeon holeing every game into one exacting configuration would do the MVL a disservice I believe. OTOH, if a setting or a group of settings circumvent the spirit of the MVL, then it might be a good thing to rule against them.
Reply #281 Top
Thanks Sole Soul for your comments. I was'nt the one who brought this up because as I said earlier, it never occured to me. I do however agree with JustinSane4.
Reply #282 Top
Lots of perspectives on this issue. I find the flexibility granted in race selection and configuration an attractive feature of the MVL. It makes the games more interesting and encourages the use of race setup to the fullest extent. Pidgeon holeing every game into one exacting configuration would do the MVL a disservice I believe. OTOH, if a setting or a group of settings circumvent the spirit of the MVL, then it might be a good thing to rule against them.

To me this is one of the most compelling arguments for allowing the practice.

There are a lot of things people can do to gain a minor advantage. They are truly too numerous to name. Simply someone that plays games at both crippling and tough but only plays crippling in league games is a kind of advantage. All in all that means that some people may be playing with a bit of an advantage.

If the only point of the MVL were simply who wins and who loses then I would be more concerned about stuff like this. However the actual winning and losing and associated "bragging rights" are far down the list of reasons to play the MVL.

I think the idea that playing MVL games is simply fun should be the prime motivation and if ARC adds to someones fun then I see no harm in the practice even if it may make the player appear to be a bit better than they actually are.

Secondly the idea of playing in the MVL is a way for everyone to improve their game. Certainly the "regular" players gain valuable experience from being on teams with so-called "experts" if a modded ARC allows a "regular" player to occassionally beat an "expert" I would expect that expert to take the defeat good naturedly. The more people learn the more they enjoy the game and I do believe that virtually everyone in the MVL has improved their game and that goes for the so called "experts" as well. Everyone has gained from the league.

Thirdly the camaraderie that develops among teammates and opponents alike. Only after all of these other things would I place the importance of actually winning or losing. So if someone takes some minor liberty that lets someone that I feel is not as good a player as I am beat me, I don't feel bad about that at all. My feelings of self worth do not hinge on any requirement that I must win any competition that I enter and the value of the MVL is far greater than merely who wins and who loses.
Reply #283 Top
I think the idea that playing MVL games is simply fun should be the prime motivation...

That's pretty much the main motivation for me, that is the games are are really fun and don't require a huge time investment. It's also a motivator to try game settings I probably wouldn't attempt otherwise. The competition is good because it motivates you to improve your game. It's a great way to play and compete without the BS that goes on in the Metaverse and AltMeta.
Reply #284 Top
Hi!
When I entered the MVL I've read the "rulebook", but until I've recently seen posts about it, I was simply not aware that races for metaverse and MVL games can be modified outside of the game! I'm glad this is now a public knowledge, and since neilo volunteered ;) for changing races for those that can't, it is no more a real concern to me.

But I'm still against "straw man" opponents. I'd even suggest the commish to "prescribe" the opponents for the 8th round. I like Ferrel's suggestion about something loosely based on the mythology of the campaign. Some role-playing background for a game never fails.

BTW Sole Soul, good points!

BR, Iztok
Reply #285 Top
For the record, I never used ARC, but I have used straw dogs in the past. I thought I needed an advantage when making the leap from Crippling to Suicidal. Turns out that was unnecessary. If your level of play has reached the point where you can beat a straw dog on suicidal, then your game is good enough to win against stock races. Hence, I don't use straw dogs anymore. That being said I'm siding with all or nothing. Either we mandate race and opponents, or it's a free for all. If it's a free for all, anything within the rules of the Metaverse is allowed.
Reply #286 Top
Hmm, I had no idea we could change the race config in these ways and still play a legal metaverse game. Now that I know, I do not plan to use it.

To be quite honest, it does seem unethical to me; much like an athlete using steroids is. The fact that anyone can make these changes does not mean that it should be done. And the fact that we can't really regulate against it doesn't mean we should allow it either.

I guess the crux of the problem is that Stardock isn't tagging these games as illegal, when I think they probably should be. I agree that this probably was not intentional, and I hope that it will be corrected in the future.

If we're taking this to a vote, mine will be against allowing this.
Reply #287 Top
You know it seems this issue has more legs that I initially gave it credit for.

I had wished that there was some kind of pronouncement from Stardock that we could use to guide us on this issue.

I assume that they must have noticed the original thread where this was discussed and simply chose not to comment.

From experience I do believe that there is very little that goes on in these forums without Stardocks knowledge even though they often don't comment.

Anyway I did send Cari a PM on this subject simply asking for her to share her opinion on the matter because I feel everyone here would give that opinion significant weight.

Whether or not she chooses to comment at this point remains to be seen, after all I'm sure she's busy enough on ToA without distractions like this, but my opinion is that if she does choose to comment I would feel pretty strongly about that being our guide to resolve this discussion.
Reply #288 Top
Actually Cari did reply in the How do you make custom races Metaverse compatible? thread (reply #22).

For convenience here is the text of her reply.

I'm going to have to think about this. Changing the Super Ability or the Star System in the xml file could give you an advantage, although it would probably be slight. The other stuff is mostly cosmetic. Also, if you don't specify any extra abilities for the AI players, they choose their own bonuses. If they're not, it's a bug.


From this first glance she seems to agree that this is a slight advantage and also seems to imply that you couldn't make super bad opponents by not spending ability points since any unassigned points should be spent anyway.

I propose that whatever Cari ends up deciding is the way that the MVL should treat this.

Reply #289 Top
I propose that whatever Cari ends up deciding is the way that the MVL should treat this.


I disagree. I think the players of the MVL should decide what rules to set for MVL games. Cari's opinion should be one of the many things to be considered.

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...

Reply #290 Top
I've got to agree with Kzinti here. Sure we should not treat any opinion Cari settles on lightly but ultimately i think the MVL should go with the majority of it's players. Obviously if Cari determines that these ARC's are not in the sprirt of the MV and sees fit to flag them, then yes they will be banned.

seems to imply that you couldn't make super bad opponents by not spending ability points since any unassigned points should be spent anyway.


IIRC the ability point are indeed spent by the AI.
Reply #291 Top
I've got to agree with Kzinti here. Sure we should not treat any opinion Cari settles on lightly but ultimately i think the MVL should go with the majority of it's players. Obviously if Cari determines that these ARC's are not in the sprirt of the MV and sees fit to flag them, then yes they will be banned.

That seems a fair statement. Cari's opinion is given serious consideration but not taken as the absolute authority unless she decides to have the MV flag ADC games as cheats. Sure, I'll buy that.
Reply #292 Top
I'm kind of at a loss as to picking up where the league collectively stands on the issue and it's been 40 replies since I brought up this topic so I feel a summary is in order.

Please feel free to correct any assumption that I've made that you don't agree with.

So far I see the following three main options.

1) Only in-game customization should be allowed.

2) Metaverse compatible customrace.xml files should be allowed for your own and any or all of your opponents. This is also refered to as ARC (Advanced Race Customization).

3) ARC should be allowed for your own race but only in-game customization should be allowed for opponents.


One thing to point out is that to date people have been using option 2 for quite some time and so that is the presumed "status quo" and that we would need to agree on a new rule to change that.

A quick tally of those that appear to support each of these options. Note this is not a vote or in any way anything official it's just me looking at whats been discussed so far to see which way the wind is blowing. Please correct me if you feel I've mis-characterized your position.

Option 1) Ghostwes

Option 2) CraigHB, Ferrel, Neilo, DethAdder, Kzinti

Option 3) Mumble, PlayJeff45, JustinSane4, Iztok

Abstain) Motti, Silver, FireBender

Notes.

PlayJeff45 initially supported option 1 but changed to option 3 in reply #270.

Neilo supports option 2 but is willing to accept option 3 if it appeases those that dislike ARC.

Kzinti's initial choice was option 1 but later said his opinion wasn't particularly strong and would favor no new rule, this seems to imply support for option 2. Not quite sure where to put this since it's apparently a coin flip over two totally opposite choices but as a guess I'd go with the latter comment which is option 2.

JustinSane moved from option 2 to option 3 although not that strongly however indicated like Neilo that he felt option 3 was a good choice particularly if it appeases ARC opponents.

Ferrel later made a comment that he prefered the all or nothing approach but didn't necessairly change his opinion from option 2.

I hope that is a fair assesment of people opinions and it looks like the bulk of those responded are approving of ARC for at least the players race if not both players and opponents. Some of the support for not using ARC for opponents is a concession from those that actually support full usage of ARC to those that don't.

Have I mis-stated anyone's opinion here?
Reply #293 Top
Just want to "clarify" my position...I am heavily leaning for an All or Nothing approach I think at this point (so #2 or nothing at all).

While I personally find it to be a very big concession on part of those that use ARC, I think those that do use it are more willing to not, more so than the ones that don't, to let others use it.

As a side note, I am also willing to entertain the idea of having some rounds where the Player Race is designated.
Reply #294 Top
Just want to "clarify" my position...I am heavily leaning for an All or Nothing approach I think at this point (so #2 or nothing at all).

Not positive what you mean. Does this mean you're ambivilent between #1 or #2 but are totaly against #3?

As a note I see no reason that this needs to be immediately decided and so any formal decision can certainly wait until Silver's return from "whatever happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas". ;)

Reply #295 Top
You may have mis-stated my opinion Mumble, but only because my opinion keeps evolving and I havent really settled upon anything yet. If you need to categorize my opinion, the only one that fits right now is "undecided". SInce my initial opinion wasnt strong, I find a lot of the arguments to be persausive...even the ones totally opposite from each other. ;)

Maybe we should actually have a vote, after a bit more discussion?

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...
Reply #296 Top
Just to reiteriate my feelings on specified race configurations, I do like the flexibility the MVL offers. I wouldn't be as interested by a game that specifies it.
Reply #297 Top
If you need to categorize my opinion, the only one that fits right now is "undecided".

OK.

Maybe we should acutally have a vote then, after a couple more days of discussion?

I'd personally prefer that the commissioner is present at the time any formal decision is made whether it's the decision to push this to a vote or whatever.

We have another 23 days until the end of the round. Whether or not Cari's opinion is definitive or not I'd still like to hear what she says because her opinion may very well sway my opinion as well as the opinion of many others.

If she were to come out and say she sees no big deal about it (and that did seem to be her initial response) then perhaps this all just fades away and we need no new rules and everyone is happy.
Reply #298 Top
I suppose yes, I would be only for either 1 or 2, but def. not 3. If you guys think it needs to go to a vote, I already have a Proxy ready :) (Its best to be prepared for any and all circumstances) but really I think we should wait for Cari.

If she flags them, then that takes care of that (cuz we don't accept flagged games in the MVL)

if she doesn't, feel free to set up a vote, I'm sure I'll be back before that voting period is finished anyhow.
Reply #299 Top
If she flags ARC as a cheat, the decision will be made right there. That would make it easy. But, she's already indicated it's only a slight advantage at most and releasing an update to check for it would be more work than it warrents.
Reply #300 Top
If she flags ARC as a cheat, the decision will be made right there. That would make it easy. But, she's already indicated it's only a slight advantage at most.

Agreed. If she says they're OK my vote changes to #2 along with perhaps others and then the question becomes moot. If she says they're cheats and will add code to flag them then end of story in the other direction.

Regardless of the idea that her opinion does not dictate our choice I do believe it will probably influence enough people that will make our choice obvious. I doubt that she will much care for the middle ground of option #3. Anyway option #3 was merely my attempt at trying to please everyone but as usual trying to please everyone usually pleases no one.