They do occasionally, actually. However, I would like them to stop building useless influence starbases...

Will the right-of-passage effects just be for ships with weapons? Will a freighter take forever to get across the galaxy? And if my survey ship gets zapped through a wormhole will it ever be able to make it back, at 1 pc/turn it'll be practially out of the game since it'll never get to another anomoly.

I guess the resturant of etenity (if it still exists in the game) will be HUGE.

Hmm... maybe there could be two rites of passages: one for military and one for non-military ships... The non-military ship one is given to all other Civs by default (to prevent the above problems), and can instead be taken away/given back, similar to a Trade Embargo, in a way...

Of course, actually being at war with the Civ wouldn't affect the speed of your ships, military or non-military... whether or not you had either rite of passage.

Just some thoughts.

Just an insert: If you have no right of passage for a certain AI, you can't upgrade ships in that AI's territory. Also, you should get rights of passage free with Alliances.

It seems cultural influence will just be too important. Terrans will have better fighting ability within their own territory, Yor will be slowing others down within their own territory, the UP has various laws about territory, now you have right-of-passage treaties, blah, blah, blah.

The colony rush, cultural buildings, population, influencer starbases and influence resources, the Xenophiles/Xenophobes events, and Restaurant of Eternity will all become more powerful.

And the Arceans not having engines sounds... weird. Why wouldn't they have engines? What oddball storyline quirk is that? It seems the Great Galactic Losers will now have to spend precious planet space to make their ships go faster... that too, only in their own territory.

IMO, the right-of-passage thing is just further, severe nerfing of speed-increasing systems. Each expansion pack just keeps making ships slower, and slower, and slower, while galaxies keep getting larger.

the right of passsage is not intended to make all ships go slower. it is intended to help secure your "borders" which i guess is going to coincide with your influence range. or maybe it can just be a range from individual planets. i think that may work better. how far? i dunno! maybe they multipley for planets near eachother. But that vast empty regions should go to no one.

a few people have asked for this in past threads, more to stop the AI from litering your space with their ships. since there was no way to ask them to leave, they now have to ask your permission to enter. And i assume that you can give and get more than one at a time.

I hope the AI will be proactive in trying to secure these treaties so its not one sided for the human player. I have much confidence that it will work well.

Now lets let the Beta testers get it tweeked

I liked the system in Europa Universalis 2... you couldn't go through enemy territory without permission, or declaring war. You also couldn't declare war while you had military access. However, that wouldn't apply to traders (the trading system was different anyhow) Basically, it made being far away a big anti-war argument, because you would need access through the middle, or need to declare war on everyone between. But, that's land, and this is space. Space is all no-man's land, as far as I can tell. Like water in EU2. You fight for it when you have to, but it's never really yours. I can't say it makes sense that being in a certain sector would slow a ship down. But if someone doesn't have military access, there should be a much smaller penalty to declare war.

They are trying to make cultural borders actually mean something in game play terms other than the occasional acquisition of another planet via culture.

I'm all for the principle of what they are trying to accomplish (making borders more significant & making cultural starbases more useful aside from just building one outside of an opponent's planet). How well this particular implementation will work remains to be seen.

Also, it reminds me of a seemingly small but rather significant difference between Civ III and Civ IV, and that was that you cannot not declare war on someone while in their borders in Civ IV. (Well, you can, but all of your units will be moved outside of them.) In fact, you cannot move into their borders, period, without either having their permission or declaring war on them. Sure, it might not all make a lot of sense from a realism standpoint, but it is much better for the GAME, in my opinion. Whereas in Civ III borders meant little at all (in hindsight anyway), in Civ IV they actually are very significant. That said, some people actually like Civ III better, which to me is rather baffling, but I suppose you'll have that in any series where they change a bunch of stuff.

On that note, if would be nice if treaties actually meant something in Gal Civ 2. I mean, you can declare a treaty, maybe even get paid for it, and then just attack the next turn anyway. That makes them rather pointless from a game balance perspective in my opinion.

I've seen minor races do quite a bit of colonization as it is. In a few rare cases, I've actually seen them get as large as some of the smaller major races.

In my opinion, it should be the case that ships moving into foreign space where there is no right of passage have to slow down. However, it should be at the discretion of the foreign government to allow that ship to move at a certain fraction of its full move, depending on how close it is to an inhabited planet or base. You could say that the ship in question is being escorted to avoid any potential 'misunderstandings'. The moment the ship makes a wrong* move, it is once again limited to one move per turn. When it turns and assumes a non-threatening course again, it may be allowed to move more quickly. Taking a shortcut through an uninhabited part of another civ's territory without right of passage may be slower than with a right of passage agreement, but faster than trying to fly by an inhabited world.

* Some manoeuvres may bring the ship closer to an inhabited planet or base than the alien civ would like, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to attack.

That sounds like too much micromanagement to be able to set the speed of individual ships within your sphere of influence.

Any chance we will see improved Minor race AI ? at least as a scenerio option? Allowing them to colonize and invade again would make for alot of interesting situations - to keep them "minor" would be just a matter of slowing thier research production and perhaps starting out w/o any techs. - Idealy would like to see the minor's even get thier own vote as a confederation in the UP,(i.e. all minors act as a total of one civ when voting) allowing them to produce influence but at again a reduced factor then the major civ's.

something about an immense galaxy with 18 or so Active civ's makes me drool.

It would certainly make the most sense for a recommended speed limit without Right of Passage treaties. As in, "You can go more than this if you want to, but you're gonna make them upset." The other thing is that breaking the rules shouldn't AUTOMATICALLY mean war, just reduced relations.

Also, I ask again: will we ever (preferably TA) see a disable tag for techs, as discussed in my previous post, 31?

The bright and illuminating hand of Amaterasu did not prevent the Japanese from attacking Pearl Harbor. GalCiv II doesn't have any Organian deus ex machina to stop or delay war with their awesome mental powers, either. All of these "move ships around or slow them down against the will of the player" options need to be implemented with in-game technology that can be opposed or circumvented, or not at all.

On the other hand, I can agree with reduced diplomatic relations being the result of violating interstellar speed limits, as Rasori suggested.

here is an idea.


allow the player to decide if he will follow the speed limit.


then a new up decision if an empire is caught speeding another races territory they have to pay blank amount to that race in fines.

I don't like this as is.

My suggestion:

Without a right of passage treaty, ships that are in the territory of another can be attacked without declaring war. There will be a diplo hit if you do this though.
Having ships in the other's territory without a treaty is also a diplo hit if the AI can spot them.

Also, an AI or human can order another AI or human to put their ships outside the territory or have war declared. In such cases, the ships are auto-moved towards the nearest friendly border.

One exception I'd also throw in, a planet where the AI/human has a planet- their ships can travel freely throughout the sector

It seems that the difference in opinion comes in the fact that you seem to want some sort of quasi-simulation of a pseudo-science reality, whereas personally I just want a game, and a game where all of the options present are actually relevant.

If Earth is light years away from the sun, then by God I can slow down opposing ships in my territory just by looking at them funny.

No, seriously, you want an explanation? Okay: Tachyon fields! Don't worry if it doesn't make sense, since...you know...most of the technology in the game doesn't if you think about it too long.

good case for border starbases.

Tachyon Fields? Ok fine. Put that in the tech tree somewhere, and then we can upgrade starbases with Tachyon Field Generators (of various strengths depending on the level of the technology) by building Constructors, and give Super-Isolationists appropriate benefits related to the technology.

I'd want that more than a rationalization.

I personally think this whole "speed limit" thing is all too complicated. Why not just make it how it is now: if you get too close to the AI's territory they start to get annoyed at you and may request that you move. If you are on good enough terms with a race you can negotiate a 'right of passage' treaty, then this neutralises the negative effect and you can pass through their territory as you please. Likewise AI civs may try to negotiate a treaty with you, and if you don't like them parking their ships near your planets you can request that they move their ships with the threat of going to war if they persist. I thought the main problem players had with the current system was that the ai could park their ships and you couldn't do anything about it. Why do there have to be speed limits and stuff like that? I'd be all for it as one of the council voting topics but I'm not sure of its value as a game feature.

Hi everyone,

I have started another thread with an alternate suggestion to the Right of Passage treaty here:

http://carielf.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=163543

Please read it and let me know what you think.

I dont think it needs to be complicated, we can just have an option on the dialog / trade scren that says "please move you ships or else" and if that player wants to have better relations and not get a diplomatic hit then it says yes and its shios are moved to the border. i hate to say this cause it irritaes me too BUT kinda like on Civ 2.

Here are my 2 BC worth of ideas

Peace Treaties
Personally I think there should be a minimum number of turns that you can't go to war with someone after you sign a peace treaty. If you DO declare war before this time period is up I think your diplomacy rating should be pretty badly beaten.


Resource Treaties
Imagine if you could LOAN developed resources to other races? That would REALLY allow you to make a big contribution to someone elses war. You could loan them for a certain amount of time and then they would revert back to you at the end of that time. This also adds a neat twist. If I am neutral to A but at war with B what do I do when I find a starbase that is lending resources to A? If I destroy it then I am at war with B. How do you prevent exploits (i.e. get a deal to loan a race resources before declaring war). Well, it could either be assumed that a third party would be running the starbase so its still not yours until the end of the contracted time, or you could simply savage the scoundrel's diplomacy rating on all races. I suppose a Resource Treaty indicator could be part of the Treaty Screen, and some sort of indicator on the actual starbases showing who it is being leant to and for how long if your espionage is high enough.

Espionage Treaties
Signing such a treaty automatically grants Low Espionage level to each of the signers. In addition for a small, ongoing fee you share a small amount of espionage on other races that you gather. So even if I am not spying on the Drath I get a percentage of Intelligence that the Humans are gathering on the Drath.

Intelligence Espionage
Personally I am not a fan of doing sabotage simply for the sake of gathering intelligence so I hardly ever use Spy's as a weapon (its just too expensive). If you could designate spy's to only gather intelligence then this would be better. Being spied on this way might not be worth the computer using one of their own spies to nullify. In addition there might only be a small chance per turn of such a spy being nullified.

Pirates
I think it would be really cool if on the Espionage screen, once you have hit a certain level you could directly fund pirates. They would randomly appear in uninhabited systems a certain distance from the nearest target race's inhabited system. The quality of the ships would be determined by some formula using the level of the sponsor, the level of the target and the amount of money sent. Once spawned the pirate might attack other races, but that is what happens when you deal with pirates. Everytime you send money there is a chance based on the target's race's intelligence level of the Sponsor that this dastardly action is discovered and race relations are affected.

Vassal States
I never go for a military victory since it takes too long to do all of the mopping up, and its just not fun IMHO. I think it would be cool if you could force a race to become a Vassal (or offer to become one if you are being hammered). A Vassal turns over all resource bases, and can only trade with the controlling race. In addition they are unable to declare war or peace, and are automatically at war/peace with whoever is the controlling race and vice versa. The relations they have with all other races mirror the Controlling race's relations. Now if the Controlling race declares war on a Vassal their diplomacy is thoroughly savaged.
Now at an opportune time, or if the vassal feels it is strong enough to through off the chains of oppression, then they may break their vassalage. All wars that they were involved in cease and their relations to all other races are neutral modified with how that related race feels about the controlling race. Of course breaking such a vassalage is an act of war to the Controlling Race.

I want to see some form of territory treaties, and I think that ones along lines like Cap'n Yar suggest make more sense in terms of both game mechanics and story lines, unless we're going to have a big new event that's about rearranging ships on the entire map.

Last I checked you could get TG.N tokens with paypal...

Agreed, this would be nice.


Being able to loan the resources from Mining Starbases would be an incredible diplomatic option. I really think this should be considered to be added to the game in some expansion, whether this one or not. Certainly, there are risks of "increase the value of my trade before I declare war" exploits... but you can already do that with the current Economic/Research treaties.


This would be pretty nifty too. Of course, I'd rather see them bring back the DL slider system of Espionage Intel Gathering back as the main (agents can help) source of intel gathering and leave the current DA Espionage Agents solely as sabotage first, though.

As it is currently, agents are too expensive to try to use them to gather intel on races, imho. I've never get more than Medium Intel Level on a race (and even that's rare) in any of my DA games, but my DL games, I always had High level with ALL races...



I'd LOVE to see something like this brought in as a replacement for (or in addition to) the current Surrendering system.