--Speaking of which, I now feel it necessary to point this thread out:
Request: Please remove off-topic categories from recent posts list

--Unfortunately in the process of this post, the one I have just made, I just bumped this appalling thread. It's just toooo bad there isn't a bump/no-bump button I can check just in case I want to comment and not put this contemptible thread back on the top of the Recent Posts List!!!

You people, why do fall for this cheap snare Pmutzu has pulled out his you-know-what? Whenever you see these threads, don't fuel them. Scorn them! In this case, you had to keep posting, and for what? So you could "voice your beliefs"? Alot of people don't want to hear your beliefs! Whether or not they are right or wrong. 

Keep it to yourself people.
 

so you are saying that rather than believing that brain malfunction, which can be measured, is responsible i should rather believe some hair-bending story about temporary soul-traveling and afterlife, which is not the least bit verifiable?



Ok, here is something. Do people have NDEs where there is nothing to do with God and the afterlife? If NDEs are solely a function of the brain and nothing more, why wouldn't a NDE just be like a random dream?? Why aren't NDEs just extreme acid trips where a person reports just a complete incoherence of random flying colored dragons, etc. like when you seriosly damage your brain with drugs with a full blown acid trip?? I mean, do you like mentally know you are going to die or black out from a high G force test, etc. right before you do "die" and then by you thinking about it produces a vivid NDE that has absolutley nothing to do with your own values a lot of the time? Some people got to near death so suddenly that it seems wierd that instead of just having a crazy f#$#$ed up dream from your brain being starved of O2, you just so happen to have a NDE that you wouldn't have in 99% of your dreams. Also, if you read about some of these experiences, there a lots of common elements, such as traveling through a tunnel of light, having a entire life review, etc. Again, if NDEs were solely messed up brain function, why wouldn't there be a whole heck of alot more varience?? Why would tons of people be traveling through a tunnel of light? What would be the reason for the similar experience. The reason I state the soul and afterlife is because of the NDE itself speaking to the truth of this.

See, basically thousands perhaps millions of people have had NDEs where they report that God and the afterlife are real. These people know there is life after death. Why shouldn't we believe them if there are thousands and millions saying the same things?

Also, I told you there were some stories where NDEs were verifiable. The 2 example I listed earlier. Of course, I suppose it is possible all these guys are absolute liers about their experience. Why is that we hear something crazy WE AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME it is false until we can see for ourselves? I mean there are stories where hundreds of people said they saw Aliens, yet we automatically assume they were just stupid and delusional. An entire town of people that are nothing but complete idiots. I bet we could test their brains and give them a clean bill of health. Many, many people have said they have been abducted by aliens, have seen ghosts, etc. Were all these thousands and perhaps millions of people who have seen these things delusional, stupid, had a serious brain disorder, etc. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM??????????

Anyway, as I have said before, some people a thousand years ago were 99.9999% sure that the world was flat. Some people were 99.9999% sure that there were no atoms.

Lastly, lets look at the 2 laws of thermodynamics.

1. Matter and energy CANNOT BE CREATED or destroyed, it simply changes form. This begs the obvious question to scientists: "where the hell did all this stuff and energy come from if it wasn't created?

2. (I may have jostled the language up a bit). In any energy reaction, the net quality of the energy is reduced. Entropy increases. Again, how do you account for our present quality of energy??? How did we end up with huge energy qualities such as found in countless stars where you have globes of millions of degrees of heat energy far larger than the biggest planets??? Where did our high energy quality come from?

that would be called faith.

to my knowledge, the part of the brain that does the dreaming has usually already shut down. however, if you want to get into a deeper discussion of NDEs, i suppose you would have to consider the individual situation and circumstances of the person reporting the NDE, and if and what facts have been verified by INDEPENDENT sources.


acid, or LSD, acts in a very different way on the brain than ischemia/hypoxy (insufficient perfusion, lack of oxygen). LSD increases brain activity to generate vivid hallucinations. An NDE would be the result of parts of the brain shutting down.


because it has to do with brain anatomy. like the shape of your leg has nothing to do with your values.



an NDE is not a dream.


And the reason i state is brain anatomy. a hand is a hand, and a brain is a brain. if you break a hand, most people will report difficulties with motor function. if you starve a brain, or even make it think it is starving, most people will report an NDE, if the remember it after awaking. I recommend in this regard:

The Near Death Experience as a Product of Isolated Subcortical Brain Function
Journal Journal of Near-Death Studies
Publisher Springer Netherlands
ISSN 0891-4494 (Print) 1573-3661 (Online)
Issue Volume 19, Number 2 / December, 2000


to paraphrase/adapt a. huxley: because 10,000 repetitions DON'T make a truth.
scientific results are often counter-intuitive. that's why we have to do science to figure things out.


you mentioned about them. i would be interested in reading the details about them. can you give me some references, please?



because it sounds... um, crazy?


no. these people probably really believe they are telling the truth. but brains are funny little organs. i bet many of these testimonies rest on "false memories". i you haven't read about this phenomenon, please do it! it is actually quite easy to create false memories in a person, as psychological studies have shown. likewise, false memories can be created by a brain under certain conditions. however, the case of multiple witnesses is more tricky. but extremely rare. there may yet be a case out there that hasn't been explained yet.



well, since it CANNOT BE CREATED, maybe it just changed form?




I am no physicist. but i like popular physics literature. lets see how far we can get on this one. to begin with Rudolf Clausius (2nd law of thermodynamics):
"The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium."

meaning: our universe, if indeed a closed system, strives towards "dead heat." this means all forms of energy, including matter, will ultimately be transformed into heat. when all the universe has the same "temperature", equilibrium will have been reached.

obviously, our universe is currently not in equilibrium, which is why (literally) all sorts of processes are going on. the short answer to your question is, i think, the configuration of the higgs field, which is in a metastable state that allows the values of the nuclear forces to be just right for matter to form.
if you are truly interested in why there is matter at all, i recommend this great book:

"the fabric of the cosmos" by brian greene
# Publisher: Knopf; 1 edition (February 10, 2004)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 0375412883
# ISBN-13: 978-0375412882

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fabric_of_the_Cosmos
for a short summary/ review.

it is all about string theory, probably the most exciting development in present day physics.

and that would be why i am an atheist

it is ok god believes in you

If its full of it than you shouldn't have any trouble quoting a particular instance, hmmm?

I don't remember God ever saying, 'Go destroy that village and rape their women and children, because it pleases me!' Probably because it never happened.

Its the retarded and greedy kings of Europe who used religion as an excuse for murder, and we've already covered that a page and half ago.

Antibody, take a look at this website. I ask that you read through it and provide counter - arguments if you wish after you have read trough it. This provides some of the "verifiable evidence".

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

The argument that all NDEs are similar in many aspects is both the afterlife, "God is real" theory's greatest strength and greatest weakness. You could be right in that for some darn reason (an evolutionary reason?) that if you starve the brain of O2 and prepare to kill it, you have a NDE. Or the fact that NDEs have a lot of similar aspects means there is a certain truth to the afterlife after death. In other words, if NDEs were just a bunch of random dreams where only say 0.5% of those having NDEs actually "saw God", etc. that that would be evidence supporting the dying brain "no God, no afterlife" theory.

here is a selection:


Exodus 32:27 (King James Version)
"And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour".

numbers 25:4
"take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the lord may be turned away from israel"

Num. 31:15-18. "15. And Moses said unto them, Have ye
saved all the women alive? 16. Behold, these caused the
children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit
trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there
was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.17. Now
therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every
woman that hath known man by lying with him.18. But all the
women children, that have not known a man by lying with
him, keep alive for yourselves."

numbers31:31 and 37-40 (animal and human sacrifices)
And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.
And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.
And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.


joshua 6:21
"they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword"

joshua 10:40
"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded."

deuteronomy 20:13-14
"but the cities of these people, which the lord thy god doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: but thou shall utterly destroy them: namely, the hittites, and the amorites, the canaanites, and the perizzites, the hivites and the jebusites; as the lord thy god has commanded thee."


please also note that the following offenses carry the death penalty (leviticus20):
cursing your parents, adultery, making love to your stepmother or mother-in law, homosexuality, marrying a woman and her daughter, bestiality, working on the sabbath.

for more, see:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

or

http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/bibleatrocities.html

ok that is killing and plunder

but i didn't read anything about rape.

unless you try to read it into that one passage.

stanley:

first of all, i am just as fascinated by NDE as you are.
thanks for this interesting link!



i am afraid for reasons of time, i shall be unable to read through everything on that website in the near future. however, here are a few remarks, shot from the hip:

1) the author of the website (who is this?) says on one hand, scientific methods are unable to prove the metaphysical claims. on the other hand, he cites scientific studies as proof of the metaphysical claims (see below, e.g. 9;17). this is not a logical argument, nor proof of anything.
2) one has to be very careful when interpreting the meaning of scientific findings. every word counts. For example, "(9) Out-of-body experiences (OBEs) have been validated in scientific studies." means: "a scientific study has confirmed that people under specific circumstances have had an experience that made them feel like they had left their bodies".
it does NOT mean: "during an NDE the souls of people can leave their bodies and wander around".
likewise, yes, "(17) The replication of NDEs using a variety of triggers satisfies the scientific method."
of course it does! if you give people certain drugs at certain doses or subject them to high-G, they will report an experience that conforms to the scheme we call NDE.
again, this does NOT mean that people actually DO all the things they THINK they are doing.

"A scientifically controlled NDE that can be repeated which provides such evidence would be the scientific discovery of all time. However, science does not yet have the exact tools to accomplish this. But, science is coming very, very close. This kind of evidence and others provide very strong circumstantial evidence for the survival of consciousness."




the experiment that needs to be done in this regard is to induce NDE, or evaluate NDEs from "real" medical incidents across cultural borders. I wonder how a hindu or a buddhist would describe his/her NDE? if they all came back and said: "i saw a guy who called himself jesus", you'd have a valid point.

i hope you don't mean it's allright, because it's JUST killing and plunder?!
and yes, "keep for yourselves" means take as wives. and i do not presume you would actually WANT to marry someone who just slaughtered your family and nation.

also, try this one on for size:

Isaiah13:13 I will make heaven tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place when the LORD of Armies is angry. At that time he will be very angry. 14 They'll be like hunted gazelle and like sheep with no one to gather them. Everyone will return to his own people and flee to his own land. 15 Whoever is found will be stabbed to death. Whoever is captured will be executed. 16 Their little children will be smashed to death right before their eyes. Their houses will be looted and their wives raped.

Good one on the bible Antibody. If traditional Chrisitianity is 100% true, then I just don't see how God is not pure evil. I just don't see why God has to send us to Hell, allow us to get sent there, etc.

Anyways, Antibody you are right on the spot with the website. The author should have been more careful with his words. At this time, God cannot be proven to exist anymore that he can be proven to not exist. Anyone that claims 100% proof of existence or non-existence is incorrect. I just look at all the evidence. I reason in my mind. In my mind, having looked at all the evidence I conclude that near death experiences are a true afterlife experience. Can I prove they are? Of course I can't. And, yes, I do consider the possiblity that God and the afterlife are just wishful thinking. I think about that everyday. So, I would say I am not 100% sure that God exists. I know you were 99.99% sure he doesn't. Well, I would say I am maybe 20% sure he does not exist and 80% sure he does in fact exist. In my mind, taking everything in my life experiences into account, it is more likely that some form of a God does exist.

However, the circumstantial evidence is compeling. If you consider that in a court of law, two impartial witnesses saying the same thing would hold up very well as evidence, millions of people over history saying the absolutely know God exists after having a NDE is decent evidence. As you said, did they THINK they saw God or did they IN FACT saw God?? That is the heart of the matter with NDEs. However, when you look at all the evidence where out of body experiences were shown to be accurate by third parties (basically going back to the 2 examples I reported earlier), I have to admit it is convincing.

Lastly, this is kind of off subject, but lets say aeitheism is true. If I go through life and refuse to have any kids, am I being really evil? I mean if you tie each person's existence solely to his or her unique body, then if I never have any kids, than those potential lifes will never be!!! I mean we should all have as many kids as possible. Even if the kid only lives to be 7 and then dies at least that potential life turned into actual life got to live for 7 years before going to complete non-existence. Just something weird I have thought about.

And lets consider Christianity and abortion. According to most Christians I have talked to, abortion is very wrong, however, babies that die apparently automatically go to Heaven (that was one of my biggest arguments against eternal damnation - what happens to babies that die? Do they go straight to eternal torture when they lacked the neuron capacity to conceive in Christ, and make him savior and Lord of their tiny little lives??) If both cases are true, than abortion is awesome!! You get to send a soul straight to Heaven rather than take the chance that the person's reason and santiy get in the way of salvation later in life!!! Every single parent should slaughter their young children and abort their unborn babies to 100% gurantee salvation for their little ones!!!!! Right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean, heck, I really wish my Mom had stuck a dagger in my heart and sent me straight to Heaven when I was a baby!!

fair enough. i agree it is the only thing one can do.



due to cultural indoctrination, it is precisely the impartiality that i am calling into question. hence, cross-cultural experiments/ data integration is needed.



here, the issue shifts from the personal experience to the reliability of the sources and the interests of the author of the study or reporter of the incident. this has to be carefully scrutinized on an individual basis, and all necessary information may not be available to us. i only know about experiments with spiritual media that claimed to be communicating with the dead. studies of this subjects were regularly "contaminated" by "sensory leakage", that bascially allowed the medium to obtain feedback from the living "client" and use it to "home in" on what the client wanted to hear. kind of like what "psychics" do.
therefore, i do not value purported "evidence" very highly- though admittedly, the jury is still out.



this is actually a "christian" argument. atheism requires only one thing: if you want your life to have meaning, YOU have to make it meaningful.

there are no ethical or moral requirements per se, but rational thought will quickly tell you that a world of love is better than a world of hatred. game theory gives you mathematical underpinnings for this by concluding that cooperation pays off, so long as perpetrators (parasites) are punished (by non-cooperation). bio-psychology will tell you that anyway, your sense of fairness and right and wrong is largely derived from our evolution.

ethics and policy-making will center around maximizing everybody's freedom to enjoy their lives and make them meaningful, ergo the quality of life increases. there will be no people who will want to impinge on other people's freedoms and lifestyles and sexuality, because "god" told them to.




while i agree that may sound absurd, this was a serious matter of theological dispute in the middle ages- and it is once again today!. the church realized that sending babies straight to hell, as was indeed the official doctrine, was rather unpopular. it was "solved" by the invention of the "limbo" in the 12th? century. incidentally, pope benedict tried to quietly abolish the limbo last year, and finally let the babies go straight to heaven.

check this out:
Friday, 6 October 2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/5406552.stm

this just goes to show what a farce organized religion often is.

There is in math an equation which operates similarly to this riddle "This is a lie." Now like this riddle logic cannot answer the math problem. There exists within two logical answers which can neither be proved nor disproved. Either the answer is yes this is a lie or no its truth. For those that believe that logic can answer all questions this problem creates a dynamic paradigm.
This riddle then brings about another question. Can logic answer all questions? I should state this: by logic I mean a step by step process to identify truth. Based on the previously mentioned riddle wherein logic can neither prove nor disprove another avenue of argument must be utilized. One then must turn to philosophy an often maligned and underutilized science but, once understood, a science with true value.
Lets then ask some simple questions. Can someone prove God directly? I personally hate this question becuase its so painfully useless. The answer as any atheist/ theist on this board can answer is no. We have no direct evidence of God.
If there is no direct proof then why believe? The answer to this becomes slightly more of an obstacle. I am going to be referencing numerous philosophers indirectly but the argument goes as follows.
How do we know that lieing is wrong? Because if all people lied then there would be no use for truth. If truth does not exist there is no trust and without trust "contracts" between people ie relationships cannot be formed and society cannot funtion.
How do we know that theft is wrong? If everyone stole from each other then yet again there is no trust which leads to the before-mentioned breakdown. Likewise if everyone steals from each other then there is no reason to go out and gain new things like food, water, shelter etc because you can just steal them from soemone else. But eventually with no one adding to the cycle the system also breaks down.
How do we know murder is wrong? Same idea as before. If everyone does it then the whole pyramid of cards comes crashing down.
So why believe in God if there is no logical reason. What values does God represent? Love, honour, justice, happiness, learning. I assume that no one here denies that these are virtues which should be cherished. Without God are these virtues still cherished? I would argue no. There is no longer repurcusions to our actions since God and religion became taboo. If you doubt me look no further than the indiviualist responses put forth in this forum so far. Since the breakdown of God as a reason and the rise of the individual the only person who matters is me. The only controls on actions are the law which as evidenced by violent crime, the lies of politics and the ones we tell each other, is in most instances impotent. The law is bought and sold daily. Don't believe me? How is smoking still legal? How is it that a man can rat out a spy from his own government, an act of treason, and only get a fine?
God needs to be active in society to hold it together. There needs to be soemthing bigger than us which judges our actions, something which can see behind closed doors and into our deapest thoughts. Otherwise the whole house of cards comes falling down as one man climbs over another driven by his individualistic need. In a god driven society all things are communal. It is the tainting of Individualism that destroys all mans greatest works.
Communism should have worked in theory but the problem is those with power want more power to teh detriment of their subjects
Democracy should have worked in theory but is plaugued by politcal corruption.
Capitalism should have worked but yet again the need of those with power to sustain and acrue more power corrupted.
The first thing they teach you in sales is to view the customer as a mark rather than a person.
I can go on but i believe these few examples should show that Individualism is a horrible principle. The needs of the individual should never trump the needs of the group.
The problem with atheism is it admonishes these principles as sacred. Therefore a society built around atheistic principles is inherantly self destructive. Either the rules of law has to be severe in order to negate the value of Individualistic principles which none of us would want to be a part of or society breaks down.
In conclusion the simple principle is this. I have more faith in a God I can't prove bringing order and justice to mankind than I do in mankind ever fixing its own problems.

you are talking about a paradox. paradoxoi are indeed powerful, and afaik usually point towards a new dimension. however, they may simply tell you that your presumptions are
wrong, or your equation to simple, or incomplete.



i am a fan of philosophy, but it is by definition NOT a science. no science may, in its own terms, explain the purpose and meaning of itself. also, in order to classify as a science, it has to utilize experiment and be empirical, "which means the knowledge must be based on observable phenomena and capable of being tested for its validity by other researchers working under the same conditions" (Wikipedia).



the answer to this is actually not that hard. we believe because we have a "god spot" in our brains, that presumably evolved as a side-effect of higher brain function. we also believe because it was advantageous to our survival to assume "intelligent" action behind just about anything. this is because first, we were the prey of stronger, faster animals. then, we were (are) the prey of each other. a key psychological experiment in this regard was to show small children a black computer screen with two blinking white dots on it. pretty soon, the children assumed that one was "chasing" the other!
our brains are wired this way, because it helps us survive. it also gave rise to animism, which was later culturally refined into poly-, then monotheism.




i have no clue



you wish (and i, too!). you obviously haven't read my previous posts. please do that.



and i would argue god has nothing to do with these values.



what?! are we living on the same planet?




a man, i might add, who represents the religious conservatives in the US of A.




so, you are saying that you are only "good" because you are afraid of god, and you want to suck up to god?




kind of like under the rule of the taliban?



and theocracy is even worse.



and the perceived needs of the group should never violate the rights of the individual.




i know that freedom is a scary concept for many. and you are wrong: the LAWS don't have to be severe to make a society work. that is the way religion works: by scaremongering! follow god or you will DIE! you will suffer in HELL for ALL ETERNITY! the more unlikely the scenario, the bigger the scare has to be to get people in line.

what i would like for you to see is that individualism is a good thing, when the productive energies can be harnessed to benefit the whole. listen closely: individualism requires freedom.

i'll say it again: individualism requires freedom.

why is the western world the most technologically advanced and has the highest standard of living? compared to communism, dictatorships and theocracies?

because we have allowed some individualism. and it had to be wrestled from the death-grip of religion, i might add.



i urge you to reconsider. god won't solve any problems. god is PART of the problem. it is only we who can solve our problems.

Question: are we referring to mere atheism, which is a broad term meaning simply "there is no god", but otherwise potentially believes in some supernatural force (like souls or karma or whatever), or are we referring to naturalism, meaning that there is absolutely nothing beyond the physical world?

I'm so glad we are headed for extinction. Just one little rock the size of Maryland from space crashing into our planet is enough to kill us all. We're not even sure we can live outside our planet for long. No one is sure that long term exposure to Zero-G or living on a dead planet like Mars won't kill us.

So, just one small rock that usually happens once in a while will snuff out all life on this planet. Maybe except the roaches.

If there's an afterlife.. yay, I guess we're never gone. If there isn't, oh well.. We won't care cause we wouldn't know anything.



What's the point of trying to solve our problems. We can't even get along in this stupid thread. It's a simple thread and people are already picking sides and getting hostile. What's the point of it all when we are already dead. There is an asteriod with our names on it heading this way. It's not an "if it happens", its a "when it happens." outlook.

Just kiss your kids goodbye everyday. Tell your spouse you love them every moment your with them. Appreciate your friends and enjoy their company... Bah,they won't remember any of this when they are dead. Just go out there. DO WHAT YOU WANT. KILL. STEAL. SCREW YOUR BEST FRIENDS SPOUSE. WE'RE ALL WALKING DEAD. THERE IS NO GOD, SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT CONSEQUENCES, YOUR ALREADY DEAD.

Achillus:

serious case of the mondays?




it is essentially our limited lifespans that make our choices meaningful from an ethical perspective.

You got that right. I don't really believe that crap. I believe in a "god." But being human, I am only limited by the short-sightedness of our species. And being an advance type of our species compared to most of the people here, I know our limitation and I don't pretend to know it all. I'm not going to let my imagination leak into my belief system. I accept what is unknowable and go on with playing Galciv 2 and continue waiting for Sins of the Solar Empire.

Ok. here's my test to god's existence. I want god to come down and show himself right now! If he doesn't, I'm going to assume he doesn't exist!

...

Well, guess he doesn't exist!  

Has anyone seen that episode of Red Dwarf where Lister turns the news on and the news anchor says that archeologists found the first page to the bible with "All characters in this book are fictional and should not be taken literally" written on it!  

so your basing your belief system on a comedy

I didn't say it was true, I just thought that it was funny!

Here is my test to see if atoms truly exist. I want atoms to show themselves to me right now, or else I will assume they don't exist despite what all the scientists tell me.

...

Well, I guess atoms and molecules don't exist!