Pilots undergoing high-G stress tests experience exactly the same thing as near-death experiences. It's a reaction in the brain as function is shutting down. Medicine has already dealt with this issue. Next.

more like killing it and then making it live again as a different being, actually.

a "cell that never had any life" by definition does not exist. a cell is the smallest unit of life. but i understand what you mean is to "factory-assemble" a cell from single molecules, right? in theory, this can be done. though it is somewhat like the task of building a car without specialized equipment from scratch. why do it if you can just buy the car? or at least, if you can buy a factory in which the parts, bought separately, can be assembled.

this is the light in which genome-transfer experiments should be seen, IMO.

i have to agree with this.


to stay with your image.


we can put the car together but we can't make the car run.

no you don't. seeing is believing


first of all, afterlife!=god. second, because I know that hallucinogenic drugs and psychosis make people believe weird things, that to them appear just as real as reality. it is far easier to explain NDE by brain dysfunction that by the existence of god.



the brain need not die to produce NDE, as curtly explained by JamesACG. understand that a brain consists of separate modules, like your computer does. certain parts of the brain start malfunctioning first. this is because of anatomy, and explains why people hallucinate first, versus, lets say, have seizures first. "coherence" is actually established later by a sort of "logical filter" that edits out what does not "fit". that is a higher brain function though, and controls what gets passes on to your "consciousness" IF you wake up.

interesting in this regard may be that "religious experiences" can by induced by the administration of psilocybin, an active ingredient in "magic mushrooms". religious experience meaning:
"specific experiences such as wonder at the infinity of the cosmos, the sense of awe and mystery in the presence of the holy, feelings of dependence on a divine power or an unseen order, the sense of guilt and anxiety accompanying belief in a divine judgment, and the feeling of peace that follows faith in divine forgiveness".

sound familiar?

recommended reading (understandable b/c press release):
"Do mushrooms have mystic role?"
www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithsPsilocybin.pdf

actually, i think we can. all we need is fuel and time. i suppose someone needs to spend the millions of $ and actually do it at some point.

I think your question is really another, though. i think you believe in a soul that is separate from the body, which cannot be "engineered."

if that is so, you need to ask yourself if you were still "you" after you had been beamed up onto the U.S.S enterprise by scotty.

That always bugged me. But one not even go that far, are "you" still "you" year after year? None of the matter in you is the same as it was a year ago.

they were able to make a self replucating protean but that is a long way from life.




the soul is pure energy. the transporter can move energy so yes i think you would still be you after transport.

Religion is the bane of all humanity. For it is the promise of an afterlife that allows people to commit atrocities in this life.

When are we going to realize that the greatest asset any human being has is the human being next to them.

** so looking forward to the great plague **

i believe that was one of Christ questions maybe not in that wording. and one of his answers.


the first great law to love god with all your heart soul and body. the second is similar love thy neighbor with all your heart.

every five years you have a new body so what is the difference.

no the bane of all humanity is humanity

Humanity has limited needs, and infinite wants.

I have long believed that humanity will never be united until an outside force (be it some kind of deity or an alien invasion) prompts it.

Maybe I'm just a pessimist
Or maybe I'm a realist?
Only time will tell. Which exists by the way, just because we measure it doesn't mean it was created by us. Thats like saying humans invented water because we measure it in liters

I say that some kind of god exists (for the sake of argument, not necessarily the one I believe in) because there is atleast a handfull of values that permeate throughout all of human society. Such as that murder, theft, and infidelity are bad, and that anonymous charity and self-sacrifice are good.

Despite some branches of our species being seperated for over 10,000 years these moral values are a near constant. This alone means nothing, such an occurence can be attributed to evolution. Except that all of these values contradict natural selection.

If you kill another man there is now more for you and your offspring. The murdered obviuosly proved the inferior, thus the idea that murder is good should be in our society. But its not.

If you steal from another, they are made weaker, and you stronger. Those who steal would have a greater chance to prevail and a greater chance to breed. Stealing should be considered good in our society, by the laws of natural selection. But its not.

Infidelity (or multiple partners) allows the more desirable to sire more children and spread their superior genes. Humans (more often than not) mate for life. Infidelity/Multiple Partners should be considered good, but its not.

Anonymous charity drains the substance of the giver, with no benefit, and increases the substance of the reciever. Greater chance to breed, blah, blah, blah, you know the bit. Should be considered bad, but its not.

Even more so with self-sacrifice. The man/women who pushes a child away from a moving bus (or stampeding buffalo) can no longer spread those good person genes. I think you get it by now.

The only logical conclusion is that humanity has been instilled with a moral code by a higher power. I also say that its only humanity. My dog steals licorice right out of my hand all the time.   

Hi!

In some particular cases I'd rahter use my body for that.

BR, Iztok

OK sorry i got that one wrong


it is love thy neighbor as thyself.

That desire likely arose when everyone next to you was your kin. In that way you are spreading a portion of your genes (depending on your own likelihood to breed again, and the likelihood of the child living after pushing them out of the way - it may be genetically optimal to sacrifice yourself). The catch is today we no longer live with just our kin, so this urge is "hijacked" from the standpoint of the gene.

Ok, here is the thing. If God doesn't exist, if there is no afterlife, if you die and its game over, then nothing really matters. Nothing. It doesn't matter if I get to live for 300 years of a wonderful life. When I finally die, thats it. My last memory will die when my last neuron dies. It isn't like I get to live with my memories forever. So, nothing matters.

Shit, if I feel like killing a hundred babies because it makes me feel good why not? Sure, somebody will kill me maybe even torture me until I die, but ultimately who give a f#$$#?? My ultimate fate will be the same as everyone elses' - I will die and thats just it.

"Oh, but you will leave a lasting impression on the civilization. I.E. you could be a Christopher Columbus. Again, who cares? Because, eventually our universe will end, right? We will reach "the heat death" of the universe. The quality of all energy will turn to 0. Entropy and chaos will reign (Of course, how the hell did our universe form, how the hell are we at a certain state of energy quality now, etc. etc.?) Eventually, so many years will pass and everyone will forget about Christopher Coloumbus. Ultimately, everyone will perish, every memory disintegrated, so nothing ultiamtely matters.

Again, I urge you guys just to keep an open mind. There are stought aeitheists who have near death experiences with afterlife facetes. If it is solely a function of the brain, then why wouldn't the aietheists be shown nothng to prove in his or her mind that he or she was right? Hard core Christians have been shown that God doesn't send people straight to Hell for all eternity. If NDEs are a function of the brain, then why wouldn't hard core Christians be shown a NDE where they get to look down from Heaven, and see their heathen brothers and sisters burning in sheer agony?? People have had NDEs where they can see and hear things that would be impoosible for them to in the hospital, and then this is later verified by a third party. An example is someone who has a NDE in a hospital and sees a shooting 10 miles a away. The police decide to reluctantly take the NDE seriously and they discover to thier amazement that somebody was shot 10 miles away in the precise location stated from the person having the NDE.

Their are other NDE stories suggesting a definite afterlife experience. People have had NDEs where they have learned of a long lost dead brother or sister they never knew existed. When asked of this dead brother or sister, the father says, "amazing! I never told you, I was trying to keep your brother's death a secret from you.

Why would your brain have a NDE when it is starved of O2? What evolutionary advantage would this have? I mean when you drain your brain of blood, your vision fades, your hearing diminshes, and your brain begins to shut down. If your brain is shutting down, having the neurons going nuts and being destroyed, then why would it even be possible to dream? Let alone an increadible NDE that is far more real than reality.

Just because it is possible to trigger a NDE from high G forces doesn't mean it isn't genuine. Why wouldn't the person have genuinally had a NDE and experienced the afterlife during a high G force test? Why it isn't it possible to have a genuine, true afterlife NDE from a high G test? Isn't it indeed possible that during the test, the soul of the person was transported briefly to the afterlife, because the high G test induced a near death state in the brain?

That is the problem with you guys. You are so SURE. So Sure God doesn't exist. You guys won't admit His existence is at least possible. You treat it like it is absolute fact that God doesn't exist. I will concede with you guys and acknowledge that it is possible that God doesn't exist. Certainly, you guys can concede the opposite? 1,000 years ago or whenever, it used to be an absolute fact that the world was flat. It was a fact. If you said the Earth was round, you were just wrong. Need I go on with other examples?? God is possible just like it is possible that high G force tests, certain drugs, etc. can be a means by which our souls or whatever are transported to the afterlife temporarily.

Has anyone ever noticed that there is a church right beside every school (that may be an exaggeration) in America?

I find that a bit odd.

Good one Daniel

Good one Daniel. When scientists can basically slop together a bunch of atoms and form a living biological organism with absoultely 0 reliance on an already living organsim, then I may be swayed to be aetheist.

Ok, this argument was a little weak, but what about all the others about murder and stealing? Look at animals. They murder each other all the time - all in an effort to promote the best genes. Shouldn't we be doing this? Why aren't all of us going around and murdering other families to ensure our good genes and only our genes get passed? Why aren't murder and stealing socially acceptable?? Maybe God has insitlled these vaules in us?

Good one Daniel. When scientists can basically slop together a bunch of atoms and form a living biological organism with absoultely 0 reliance on an already living organsim, then I may be swayed to be aetheist.


actually, bad one.
"0 reliance on an already living organism" is like daniel's "cell that never lived": an oxymoron. since evolution operates in a statistical manner, given the circumstances, every thermodynamically possible solution for "life" on earth has likely been implemented at one point. ergo, any humanly engineered organism capable of suriving on earth will likely resemble an organism that either lives or has lived on earth.

So, friend stanley, in your likeness, let me ask for equal measure:
the day jesus returns to earth and the rapture and apocalypse etc. all occur and i am standing right in front of the god you imagine, i MAY be swayed to be a christian. may.

Wow... talk about a weak argument. I suggest you spend some time reading about Cooperative Game Theory, the advantages of evolving cooperative societies is mathematically sound. In fact, a good starting point would be to read The Selfish Gene. The issues you're trying to bring up as a "hole" have been covered 30 some years ago.

umm, no. maybe a measure of cooperation actually confers a selective advantage? it is well known from game theory that the strategy of "cooperate first, then respond in kind" works best for the individual. as a side effect, it tends to have a positive effect for all involved- except those who cheat, because their gain is minimized (when caught). murder and theft are not socially acceptable IN THE IN-GROUP, because it benefits no-one. incidentally, as previously mentioned by JamesACG, this is where religion comes in. religion helps define in-group versus out-group, so that makes it "okay" to kill and steal from muslims, lets say, if you are a christian. or vice versa.

the old testament is full of this: jahwe's tribe goes out and kills, pillages and rapes, all for the glory of god. some fine "values" that god instills in us there.

actually, there is an interesting example i saw referenced in "The God Delusion":
some species of finch or other uses "altruism" as a means to establish social dominance, which INCREASES the chance to breed for the giver. you know, power is sexy
this is a proof of principle. in the asia-pacific there is a people that holds charity contests for "elections" of chief. and in our society, charity events are used just like with the birds (why don't they just give the money to the poor directly?).
In your church, charity raises the reputation of the giver and makes other people more likely to reciprocate. etc.

Amen to that brother!      

99.99% sure. but i admit that unlikely as that may be, the existence of a god is at least possible. however, in order to explain the world we are living in, that would make that god deceptive, whimsical, cruel, evil or impotent- and thereby unworthy of my, or anyone's reverence.


so you are saying that rather than believing that brain malfunction, which can be measured, is responsible i should rather believe some hair-bending story about temporary soul-traveling and afterlife, which is not the least bit verifiable?

i recently spoke to a (christian) missionary who seriously believed in bigfoot, the yeti and the loch ness monster, because they "proved" evolution was a myth.

he would have made a fine inquisitor back in the day: "if she floats, kill the witch! if she sinks and drowns, let god sort 'em out."