I didn't say you couldn't call yourself that, I simply said that you really didn't do anything to earn the title.[/quote]

I'm sorry Baker but I don't get your point here. I am American not because I call myself one, I am because I am. I was born and raised here. I am American, I earned it because I was born here. There is no national law stating that one has to earn the right to be call a citizen of your own country. Where do you come up with this stuff. You are condemming every child born in this country to a nobody simply because they have not somehow earn the right to call themselves Americans? I'm starting to think you have lost your mind. This makes no sense.



Some people? I hope you are including yourself since you were the one that said "I simply said that you really didn't do anything to earn the title." and "with this constant need to defend a title that 99.9% of people don't really do anything to achieve.". You may not think that calling yourself American is not some kind of powerful title, that does not mean other see it that way. I am proud to be know as an AZmerican, I wear my citizenship with pride, I feel empowered by it, the name is respected by some and feared by others, it's a link to a nation that is know for it's excessive amount of freedom that so many others around the world are willing to risk their very lives to reach and taste. I would never change my country for any other and to be known as an American is not only important to me but it's also a chance that a better lifestyle is possible. The US may not be Utopia, but as far as I'm concerned it comes pretty close, it just needs some tweaking here and there. So no, I will not allow anyone to water down this name. Not even Bush.



Again another point that makes no sense. I can not take away a man's/woman's right to be an American just because they commited a crime. Every culture has criminals. This analogy makes no sense to me. You make it sound as if all these illegal immigrants are somehow incapable of rape, murder, steaing, etc. And that choice you gave is pointless, I have no right to chose who to make American, especially one who was born here. I admit I would chose a person who is not a criminal such as a rapist, muderer, thief, bigot or sexist, but I would not care if he/she was American, Australian, Brazilian, Cuban, etc. I don't base my taste in friends on what part of the world they come from. This is apple and oranges my frined and you are just trying to come up with analogies to back up your beliefs.

Let me tell you that juding by what I have read in the past week from you, I can say that we have a lot more in common than you might think, but I don't need to come up with weird, make no sense analogies to prove my beliefs. I back you up in the idea that we should not condemn an entire race and/or religion based on the actions of a few, but as I said before I can not discard the fact that it as a particular race with a particular religion where these extremist that threaten my life and that of my fellow Americans are from. No matter how much it bugs you, you can not deny this fact.



I'm sorry Baker (again) but "we" is a lot of people. Just like I have been told before you are generalizing a bit too much here. I begged no one. I expect my services to be done by legal means, if there are illegals in some of the systems I use they should be removed and the companies should be fined. But don't expect me to go out and investigate every company, corporation and mom and pop store to see if a legit American is serving me. I should not have to, that why there are laws in this country. And no I refuse to believe that any industry in this country would cease to exist simply because of the lack of illegal immigrants. What would happen is that not all of them will be driving BMW's and Benz' to work (the owners I mean) and people will just have to pay a bit more, but that doesn't seem to be a problem here since I am paying at least $1.50 more in gas than I was before, I am paying more for many items in the supermarket, fast foods have risen some of their prices, basically everything has gone up yet we have a strong economy and I have yet to hear about the millions of Americans all of a sudden homeless and starving due to raising prices. You give illegal immigrants too much credit. And maybe we should start asking ourselves why rich people need cheap labor, it's not like they can afford legal employees.

So this charity stuff is bunk. If we don't like them being here, then we need to stop the people who invite them here and pay them money to be here. If we aren't willing to do that because we like our fruit and roofing jobs cheap, then we need to shut up and stop being hypocrites.

We don't need illegals to make things cheaper, what we need is for companies, corporations and mom and pop stores to stop taking advantage of the ignorance of the average person and their laziness to go somewhere else to shop to make high, unearned profits.

"This is apple and oranges my frined and you are just trying to come up with analogies to back up your beliefs."

No, it isn't. It's insane that we protect the idea of being "American" by making people pass tests and jump through hoops for years to become one, and then let child molesters, murderers, and rapists enjoy the status just because their momma squeezed them out here. If we really believe that you have to "earn" the title, then why don't people here have to earn it, or at least keep to a standard of humanity?

"No, they do not have to "earn" it. Except one way. Obeying the laws of the nation they want to become citizens in. After all, the ones you describe - when caught, are put in jail for their crimes."

I say we round em up and use em for target practice, dress em in Terrorist outfits put them in mock up middle eastern villages and have our recruits get real time training, killing them.. solves the immigration problem, trains our military. Damn I am a genius!!

""American" denotes nothing more than the nation of which one is a citizen and is in no way a qualitative term."

So when people call each other unamerican, they are questioning the other person's citizenship status?

"QUESTION: With regards to illegal and legal immigration, in your opinion, what does it mean to be an American? What are the tangible and intangible attributes of an American?

VAUGHN: Congressman Tancredo?

TANCREDO: It means, number one, cut from the past. If you come here as an immigrant, great, welcome. If you come here legally, welcome. It means you've cut your ties with the past, familial, especially political ties with the country from which you came.

But let's be serious about this, you guys. We can talk about all the immigration reform we want and what it's got to get down to is this: Are we ready for a time-out? Are we actually ready to say, enough is enough, we have to stop all legal immigration except for people coming into this country as family members, immediate family members, and/or refugees.

Are we willing to actually say that and say, enough is -- we have got to actually begin the process of assimilating people who have come in this great wave of immigration.

The process of assimilation is not going on. And how long -- how long will it take us -- for us to catch up with the millions of people who have come here, both legally and illegally, and assimilate them? I'll tell you this: It will take this long: Until we no longer have to press one for English and two for any other language.

(APPLAUSE)

BLITZER: I promised, Governor Huckabee, you'd have a chance to weigh in on this immigration issue. Do you agree with Congressman Tancredo that the U.S. should effectively end most legal immigration into the country?

HUCKABEE: No, I disagree with that.

I think that there are a number of people that we should welcome into this country; certainly engineers and doctors and scientists that we may need legally coming here.

What we need to do is to have a border that is sealed and the same kind of process that we have to go through if we go into a stadium: We go in one at a time and we have a ticket.

That's the only thing I think Americans really are asking us for, is a sane, sensible system that's based on the idea that if you come here, that you come here through the same process that we would be expected to go through if we went to another country, which is not happening today.

BLITZER: Mayor Giuliani, are you comfortable with what Congressman Tancredo says about immigration to this country?

GIULIANI: No. I'm very uncomfortable with it. I mean, the reality is, it's one thing to be debating illegal immigration. It's a very complex subject. I think we've had a very good debate about it. And I think the bill needs to be fixed in the way that I've indicated.

But we shouldn't be having a debate about legal immigration.

Abraham Lincoln defined what an American is better than I'm going to be able to do it or Congressman Tancredo or anyone on this stage. Abraham Lincoln, who fought the Know-Nothing movement, said, "Being an American is not whether you came over on the Mayflower or you came here yesterday.

"How much do you believe in freedom? How much do you believe in freedom of religion? How much do you believe in freedom for women? How much do you believe in the right to vote? How much do you believe in the rule of law?

"The person who believes in that the most is the best American. And the person who doesn't isn't an American."

BLITZER: Thank you.

GIULIANI: And that's Abraham Lincoln's words.

We should always be open to legal immigration. It reforms us. It makes us better. It brings us people who want to make a better live for themselves...

BLITZER: Thank you.

GIULIANI: ... and their families. If we lose that, we lose the genius that has made America what it is.

(APPLAUSE)

BLITZER: I'm going to go back to Jennifer in a second, but I want Senator McCain to respond as well.

When you hear what Congressman Tancredo says, what goes through your mind?

MCCAIN: It's beyond my realm of thinking.

Look, America is a land of opportunity. The question was just asked, what is it to be an American? It's to share a common goal that all of us -- a principle -- are created equal and endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights.

That means we go as far as our ambition will take us. That means we have a better life for ourselves and our children. And the lady that holds her lamp beside the golden door is still the ideal and the dream.

Of course it has to be legal. Of course that it has to be regulated. And 18 months, by the way, will go by while we fix the border before we do anything else on this issue.

But America is still the land of opportunity, and it is a beacon of hope and liberty and, as Ronald Reagan said, a shining city on the hill.

BLITZER: Thank you.

MCCAIN: And we're not going to erect barriers and fences.

BLITZER: Thank you, Senator."

So when people call each other unamerican, they are questioning the other person's citizenship status?

I can contribute nothing to the country, and commit the most horrendous crimes imaginable and still be favored with a title we want to say other people pave to earn, regardless of their benefit to us.

Odd kind of logic.

So when people call each other unamerican, they are questioning the other person's citizenship status?

No, it isn't. It's insane that we protect the idea of being "American" by making people pass tests and jump through hoops for years to become one, and then let child molesters, murderers, and rapists enjoy the status just because their momma squeezed them out here.

If we really believe that you have to "earn" the title, then why don't people here have to earn it, or at least keep to a standard of humanity?

I seriously doubt any country would take our criminals

I have to admit that the concept of stripping major criminals, such as "child molesters, murderers, and rapists" and the likes, of their citizenship sounds like an interesting punishment, but where would we send them? I seriously doubt any country would take our criminals, well, except maybe those who wouldn't mind using them as target practice or something. Besides, it's not as if they really care about being an American, they don't respect the law as it is.

is this site now going fascist? are you people kidding me? talk about "closing the door behind you."

gonna start stripping citizenship of "certain criminals?" like that isn't the slippery slope to end all slippery slopes. after we strip the murderers and rapists (and let's all remember how far that definition has gotten stretched in the last 20 years)should we include the white collar criminals? after all, an embezzler or CEO that defrauds their investors can negatively affect hundreds or thousands of lives, where a murderer might only affect 1 or a handful of lives. same with rape.

then let's not stop there, let's strip all the dissenters and political enemies of the governement their citizenship ...after all, according to W, "yer either with us or against us."

i'm going to assume that some didn't think thru their comments above. and perhaps forgot the words of our 1st President, George Washington..."Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."