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There is nothing green about Ethanol

There is nothing green about Ethanol

Problems with ethanol - the fraud of alternative fuels

In the past year or so we've seen more and more people jump onto the Ethanol bandwagon.  After learning more about it (and it doesn't take very long to do some basic research) I've concluded that Ethanol advocates are idiots.  Let me be very clear: If you think Ethanol is a serious alternative fuel you either haven't researched it at all or you are too dumb to be expressing opinions.

It's actually difficult to find a "plus" to Ethanol.  I guess, in theory, it would reduce dependence on foreign oil. Which seems ironic that anyone would tolerate the negatives to deal a minor blow to middle east oil producers even as they shop at Walmart (which imports vast amounts of its "stuff" from China) on their way to a "Get our troops out of there" protest rally.

So what's wrong with Ethanol? Let's count the ways:

1) It's not carbon-neutral. Not by a long shot.  Burning a bio fuel in itself is "carbon-neutral" but producing the bio fuel in the first place (whether it be corn or switch grass) and then harvesting it and then turning it into fuel is hardly carbon-neutral.

2) It takes more than 1 gallon of fresh water to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol. Think about that for a moment.  Environmentalists talk a great deal about conserving water. But producing Ethanol is one of the worst things you can do in that area.  When someone runs their shower for a long time, at least that water is (ahem) recycled if you're living in a city.  But the fresh water used for farming and producing ethanol is not coming back to the water table or the lake or stream it came from any time soon.

3) It pollutes the air. In our rush to worry about CO2 (better known as the stuff that plants breath) people seem to forget about good old fashioned real pollution

But let's put away the extra pollution in Ethanol itself, let's consider the production of it which involves using massive amounts of nitrogen for fertizing it and the effect of that.  Or how about all the other things involved in raising crops.  I'm no farmer but one doesn't need to look hard to find out that the "agribusiness" is a pretty environmentally intrusive thing.  It's one thing if it's being done for food, but as an alternative to gasoline?

4) It wouldn't even come close to solving our problems. Even if we turned nearly all the ariable farm in the United States to switch grass or corn production and we switched to using corn stalks or other more efficient methods of getting bio-fuels, we still wouldn't have enough for even today's gasoline needs. 

5) Ethanol actually requires more energy to produce than it provides.  Let me be clear on this because Ethanol advocates try to side-step this by saying that all energy sources are like this.  But the difference is that Ethanol already uses more energy in the sense that it takes more gas, coal, ethanol, whatever fuels you want to use to produce ethanol than the produced ethanol will provide back.

It's a fraud.  Really wanting something to be true really badly doesn't make it true. One study showed that a gallon of Ethanol has 76k BTUs but requires 116k BTUs to produce -- before you even start transporting the stuff! In other words, it's not a close call on that point.

It's like the Simpsons episode where Homer goes into the Grease business and Bart says "That bacon you just used to produce that grease that made 50 cents cost $5." and Homer says "That's your mother's money" and Bart says "But her money comes from you." and Homer says "And my money comes from grease."

THAT's the kind of reasoning an Ethanol advocate has to use. Homer Simpson logic.

6) Ethanol has less energy in the final fuel. That means you get fewer miles per gallon on your car which means more trips to the gas station and more overall overhead.

7) Ethanol production would (obviously) raise food prices.  The government subsidizes Ethanol production. So farmers produce it instead of other grops (you know, food). Food prices go up. There have already been food riots on this.  To dumb this down so that ethanol advocates can understand: We are paying taxes so that we can pay more money for our food.

8) How do you transport Ethanol? Do advocates realize that Ethanol is a type of alcohol? (the name implies it, no?).  That means you can't use pipelines like we do for gasoline. What happens to alcohol when you mix it with water? What happens to piping if you run alcohol through it for awhile? The wikipedia page for Ethanol talks about this. But it's easy to forget that its advocates apparently don't like reading..or math.   So even if we were willing to lay waste to the land necessary to produce this stuff, how do you transport it around? By truck or train. And what powers those? Grease?

None of these facts are hard to find out. They're not part of some conspiracy by the evil oil companies.  Half of it is common sense.  Fossil Fuels, whether we like them or not, are about the closest thing we have to Energon cubes we got.

We need to get away from fossil fuels but we need to do it intelligently. Ethanol is just such a patently stupid idea on so many levels that I can't believe no one has bothered to expose it yet and discredit it once and for all.

Personally, I think plug-in hybrids are a good start. Sure, our power comes from fossil fuels but it's lot easier (and cheaper) to control what power plants emit than cars. Moreover, the US is the OPEC of coal which is what most of our power plants produce.  Better yet, use nuclear power and send the waste over to Iraq (just kidding) (not kidding, secret evil plan in progress) .

Most of our fossil fuel use and CO2 emissions come from vehicles. Give me a car that could even go 20 miles per day on electric and I'd be off of gasoline.  The answer isn't to find some new magical carbon fuel, the answer is to reduce how much our cars use IMO.

27,834 views 70 replies
Reply #51 Top
think the car industry is making a big mistake thinking there aren't a sizeable chunk of the market that wouldn't pay a few grand premium for a plug-in hybrid. It's about convenience as well as knowing that we're having less overall impact on the environment.



if we all plugged in we would have double or trible the number of power plants to produce all of that power

and there goes all that savings in pollution
Reply #52 Top
We're within a lifetime of making a lot of energy cheaply. One thing that has been theorized is using tidal forces to generate power. If you think about it the entire ocean rises and falls regularly due to the gravitational pull of the moon.

That isn't technically "free" energy in the normal application of the term, but if conservationists can be appeased it is a HUGE amount of potential if it can be harnessed. The impact on species along the effected shorlines, etc., will be a problem, in the same way that wind was once considered the go-to solution and now people are upset about it bothering the birds, etc.

I tend to think in the same way that Brad does, that the solution won't come at the macro level, but on the individual level. Creating things that use less power and supplementing with things like solar and wind, and then building on innovations in those things to eventually make bigger leaps. There's tons of stuff to be done, but it shouldn't be done as an all-or-nothing, ruin the world to save the world prospect.
Reply #53 Top
how long have we been working on gas powered cars and then how long have we been working on all of the others
Reply #54 Top
Lol, I don't think you are thinking about this. You are claiming that farmers won't need incentive to grow sugar beets, and then admitting that hundreds of millions of dollars have been paid... as incentive to grow sugar beets. Who cares where the money comes from? You should. You're paying for it. Anyway, there isn't so much incentive if you'd note the articles I linked. The government has hacking hard into those subsidies and the industry itself is beginning to rot on the vine.It's irritating to see people who ignorantly claim an industry is "lucrative" when in fact the industry itself can't keep its head above water without subsidies. Is the airline industry "lucrative"? It's like saying being on government disability or welfare is lucrative. The government doesn't just conjure that money from thin air, it comes from you and me.In terms to how this relates to fuel, consider the fact that a large part of your cost in ethanol or other "farmed" fuels will be extracted from you behind your back. You might be paying $2.50 a gallon at the pump, but if billions are being paid to farmers to grow it competitively, you'll be paying the extra, yourself at tax time. That isn't an honest look at the benefits of these fuels, it's the same old agricultural pit we've made ourselves for decades.


Listen I agree with you! But the sugar beets are a lucrative crop for FARMERS (I never said the sugar beet industry is lucrative) at the moment!!!!! Sugar beet FARMERS in my area are very wealthy, I know one farmer that goes on African safari's nearly every year costing tens of thousands of dollars (taxpayers dollars!) These farmers are making millions from this crop and its the government (taxpayers) thats funding it, I'm not at all happy about it, I think its ridiculous that taxpayers are buying these guys new trucks, houses, vacations and so on. As I type this I'm looking out my window and see a sugar beet farmer right behind my house, he's planting this year's crop. It looks like he just bought a new $200,000 and something tractor, its parked next to his new $40,000 pickup (his last pickup was only a year old) So my point is, yes sugar beets are lucrative crop for FARMERS and yes I know I'm paying for it, and no I don't like it one bit!!! The industry might start to fall to pieces soon, but I haven't seen any signs of it here yet. When it finally does end the farmers will just move to another heavily subsidized crop, or not grow one at all and the government will pay them for that too. They cant loose as long as the feds continue to bail them out, it pisses me off to no end but it is what it is.
Reply #55 Top
Bingo! And there are a few other dirty secrets about hydrogen that never seem to get brought up. First, hydrogen is the simplest atom that exists. What that means is that you can't fully contain hydrogen in a container -- it can seep through the atomic structure of any substance. You can, of course, slow the process by having thick walled heavy tanks


the company i was talking about had them in pillet form just add water
Reply #57 Top

We should just go with WATER (HHO gas)

Watch link and you will see
Link
The Problem is that water is Cheap and Big Business wants to keep Oil
Reply #58 Top

if we all plugged in we would have double or trible the number of power plants to produce all of that power

and there goes all that savings in pollution

Hardly.  Please research before you make things up.  The research so far indicates a minimal difference because most of the charging would occur in non-peek hours.

Reply #59 Top
what about all those millions who work grave yard shift when will they plug in during peak hours guess what we can't handle any more draw on our power

if you don't believe me ask california

and i don't know about you but i would demand the ability to plug in while at work

that way i have a full charge should i want to go out before going home

Reply #60 Top

what about all those millions who work grave yard shift when will they plug in during peak hours guess what we can't handle any more draw on our power

if you don't believe me ask california

and i don't know about you but i would demand the ability to plug in while at work

that way i have a full charge should i want to go out before going home

How about you provide one link to substantiate your claim?

I already did my research for this article. I already know you are incorrect.

Power use is not an unknown.

And like I also said earlier, if we really want to deal with this issue, we could just build more nuclear power plants. But people get hysterical about them -- usually the same dolts who support Ethanol.

Being green is a "feel good" concept for a lot of people. They aren't really serious about doing something or they'd embrace technologies like nuclear power.

Instead, we have ridiculous things like solar power plants that are larger than Central Park in NY that only produce 80MW of power. So the "green" folks are perfectly okay wiping out massive amounts of wild habitat for small amounts of power but will freak out about nuclear power plants that use a fraction of the space but produce far more power.  We're not talking about serious people here.

 

Reply #61 Top
you mean i am wrong there aren't millions of people working graveyard shift
Reply #62 Top

you mean i am wrong there aren't millions of people working graveyard shift

I am saying you are wrong in that it would require a bunch of new power plants to handle the load. If you can't carry on a discussion, then go somewhere else.

Reply #63 Top
Brad, have you read about cellulosic ethanol? It negates some of your objections about sugar/starch based ethanol.

6) Ethanol has less energy in the final fuel. That means you get fewer miles per gallon on your car which means more trips to the gas station and more overall overhead.


This is only true with engines designed to run on both E85 and gasoline. Engines designed specifically for E85 get milage almost equivalent to gas.

2) It takes more than 1 gallon of fresh water to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol.


Based on what I have read it takes anywhere from 500 to 2,500 gallons of water to make one pound of beef.
Reply #64 Top
Based on what I have read it takes anywhere from 500 to 2,500 gallons of water to make one pound of beef.


ok so we kill off all of the cattle and make ethanol for the cars instead

and then we can all start popping pills to stay healthy becouse of lack of protien and other vits. that beef gives us like fat
Reply #65 Top

I had to wonder about Ethanol as a means of reducing our dependence on foreign oil when the first thing Prs. Bush did after backing it was go to South America to make deals.  What deals was he making?  He was securing deals for South American countries to grow corn to import to the US for Ethanol.

So how is this supposed to reduce our dependence on other countries?

 

Reply #66 Top

So how is this supposed to reduce our dependence on other countries?

He is annexing the rest of the Americas?

Reply #68 Top
He is annexing the rest of the Americas?


its about time
Reply #70 Top
He is annexing the rest of the Americas?


its about time


It would solve the illegal immigration problem.