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There is nothing green about Ethanol

There is nothing green about Ethanol

Problems with ethanol - the fraud of alternative fuels

In the past year or so we've seen more and more people jump onto the Ethanol bandwagon.  After learning more about it (and it doesn't take very long to do some basic research) I've concluded that Ethanol advocates are idiots.  Let me be very clear: If you think Ethanol is a serious alternative fuel you either haven't researched it at all or you are too dumb to be expressing opinions.

It's actually difficult to find a "plus" to Ethanol.  I guess, in theory, it would reduce dependence on foreign oil. Which seems ironic that anyone would tolerate the negatives to deal a minor blow to middle east oil producers even as they shop at Walmart (which imports vast amounts of its "stuff" from China) on their way to a "Get our troops out of there" protest rally.

So what's wrong with Ethanol? Let's count the ways:

1) It's not carbon-neutral. Not by a long shot.  Burning a bio fuel in itself is "carbon-neutral" but producing the bio fuel in the first place (whether it be corn or switch grass) and then harvesting it and then turning it into fuel is hardly carbon-neutral.

2) It takes more than 1 gallon of fresh water to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol. Think about that for a moment.  Environmentalists talk a great deal about conserving water. But producing Ethanol is one of the worst things you can do in that area.  When someone runs their shower for a long time, at least that water is (ahem) recycled if you're living in a city.  But the fresh water used for farming and producing ethanol is not coming back to the water table or the lake or stream it came from any time soon.

3) It pollutes the air. In our rush to worry about CO2 (better known as the stuff that plants breath) people seem to forget about good old fashioned real pollution

But let's put away the extra pollution in Ethanol itself, let's consider the production of it which involves using massive amounts of nitrogen for fertizing it and the effect of that.  Or how about all the other things involved in raising crops.  I'm no farmer but one doesn't need to look hard to find out that the "agribusiness" is a pretty environmentally intrusive thing.  It's one thing if it's being done for food, but as an alternative to gasoline?

4) It wouldn't even come close to solving our problems. Even if we turned nearly all the ariable farm in the United States to switch grass or corn production and we switched to using corn stalks or other more efficient methods of getting bio-fuels, we still wouldn't have enough for even today's gasoline needs. 

5) Ethanol actually requires more energy to produce than it provides.  Let me be clear on this because Ethanol advocates try to side-step this by saying that all energy sources are like this.  But the difference is that Ethanol already uses more energy in the sense that it takes more gas, coal, ethanol, whatever fuels you want to use to produce ethanol than the produced ethanol will provide back.

It's a fraud.  Really wanting something to be true really badly doesn't make it true. One study showed that a gallon of Ethanol has 76k BTUs but requires 116k BTUs to produce -- before you even start transporting the stuff! In other words, it's not a close call on that point.

It's like the Simpsons episode where Homer goes into the Grease business and Bart says "That bacon you just used to produce that grease that made 50 cents cost $5." and Homer says "That's your mother's money" and Bart says "But her money comes from you." and Homer says "And my money comes from grease."

THAT's the kind of reasoning an Ethanol advocate has to use. Homer Simpson logic.

6) Ethanol has less energy in the final fuel. That means you get fewer miles per gallon on your car which means more trips to the gas station and more overall overhead.

7) Ethanol production would (obviously) raise food prices.  The government subsidizes Ethanol production. So farmers produce it instead of other grops (you know, food). Food prices go up. There have already been food riots on this.  To dumb this down so that ethanol advocates can understand: We are paying taxes so that we can pay more money for our food.

8) How do you transport Ethanol? Do advocates realize that Ethanol is a type of alcohol? (the name implies it, no?).  That means you can't use pipelines like we do for gasoline. What happens to alcohol when you mix it with water? What happens to piping if you run alcohol through it for awhile? The wikipedia page for Ethanol talks about this. But it's easy to forget that its advocates apparently don't like reading..or math.   So even if we were willing to lay waste to the land necessary to produce this stuff, how do you transport it around? By truck or train. And what powers those? Grease?

None of these facts are hard to find out. They're not part of some conspiracy by the evil oil companies.  Half of it is common sense.  Fossil Fuels, whether we like them or not, are about the closest thing we have to Energon cubes we got.

We need to get away from fossil fuels but we need to do it intelligently. Ethanol is just such a patently stupid idea on so many levels that I can't believe no one has bothered to expose it yet and discredit it once and for all.

Personally, I think plug-in hybrids are a good start. Sure, our power comes from fossil fuels but it's lot easier (and cheaper) to control what power plants emit than cars. Moreover, the US is the OPEC of coal which is what most of our power plants produce.  Better yet, use nuclear power and send the waste over to Iraq (just kidding) (not kidding, secret evil plan in progress) .

Most of our fossil fuel use and CO2 emissions come from vehicles. Give me a car that could even go 20 miles per day on electric and I'd be off of gasoline.  The answer isn't to find some new magical carbon fuel, the answer is to reduce how much our cars use IMO.

27,833 views 70 replies
Reply #26 Top

there is another fuel alterinative it is hydrogen and the by product is water not co2

Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's energy storage. It takes a lot of energy to store energy in hydrogen. There are also a lot of other technological issues that have to be overcome to use it. 

It's the power source that we really need to deal with.  I wish people weren't so freaked out about nuclear power. You combine nuclear power and hydrogen "fuels" and a lot of our problems go away.

 

Reply #27 Top
wish people weren't so freaked out about nuclear power.


yep,,,i think jackson browne and company evidently went a bit too far in their "no nukes" hysteria in the 70's where people are still shell shocked, especially those of us who remember 3 mile island and don't realize it was almost 30 years ago and not to beat a dead horse, but innovations and technologies have happened since then in the areas of nuclear safety. and if we get on that horse again, with what we know now vs. then, i think you could be spot on about the nuke & hydrogen combo.
Reply #28 Top
and where did the co2 in coal and oil come from mars


huh?


coal and oil are dead plants and animals now i ask again where did the carbin that is in them come from mars since you imply that it didn't come from the air
Reply #29 Top
Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's energy storage. It takes a lot of energy to store energy in hydrogen. There are also a lot of other technological issues that have to be overcome to use it.


there is a company in salt lake that is ready to produce hydregen cars the only problem is infrastructure
Reply #30 Top
especially those of us who remember 3 mile island and don't realize it was almost 30 years ago and not to beat a dead horse, but innovations and technologies have happened since then in the areas of nuclear safety.


the testing facility in idaho came up with a way to shut down a nuke plant in case of a melt down with out any interference from man or machine

they tested it and it worked the only problem is the day they tested it chernobyl melted down so guess who got the press's attention

they are the ones who found out about the recycling of nuclear waste

and they were trying to make sure the fuel couldn't be used for weapons

when clinton shut them down to save welfare

you know welfare that ended one month later
Reply #31 Top
Let the scientists of the future figure it out.


Thanks, LW...now I have something to work on when I get older.   

~Zoo
Reply #32 Top

especially those of us who remember 3 mile island and don't realize it was almost 30 years ago

And the fact that not a single person was killed or contaminated.

Can coal and oil say that?

Reply #33 Top

8) Don't confuse the end product ethanol with the raw oil which is going through the pipelines.

The US would go into a mass depression if we had to pay the fees for all our fuel to be transported by vehicles, which costs about 20 times as much as pipe transport does. You might want to read up on how fuels are transported in large countries (the US is not alone).  Maybe start here as it also diagrams how multiple fuels are pushed through the same pipes: http://www.ftc.gov/bc/gasconf/comments2/jacobsstevee.pdf

Ethanol separates when running down a pipe, so it would have to be piped on its own.  However, they have found that pipes aren't even feasible yet due to the separation rate, which could ultimately damage the cars that use it due to incorrect product mixtures.

 

If we really want to decrease greenhouse gasses, we should quit raising cows for food. (they produce more air pollution than automobiles do).

What I want is a battery powered car and a wind generator to make the power for it.  A few birds will be sacrificed, but it would be a truly green way to operate an automobile (at least if you forget about the whole battery thing...)

Reply #34 Top
I agree with you and that is a fairly rare thing.

I have never heard a greeny in MY country support it though. In my country it is our very enviromentally unaware government.

The truth is the infrastructure of many western nations doesn't lend itself to fuel/energy conservation. We tend to transport food long distances, our buildings are inefficient, public transport isn't a attractive alternative to private vehicles etc. Changing to a renewable energy source IS possible but we also need to change our consumption. It has been show that properly designed buildings use only a third of the energy of average building. If everybody made the appropriate changes renewable energy could cover base load.
Reply #35 Top
Sorry double post.
Reply #36 Top
heh, the "brazilian sugar" argument vs. the rainforest. Good for you, Brad on bringing THAT issue up on a conservative blog. very valid point. If the USA wanted to replace its fleet with ethanol cars grown on US popular corn, we'd have to plant the entire continent of Africa with corn. That's just space-wise btw. There's a big desert in Africa, too, cuts down on land, ennit? You guys that don't think solar is "there" yet are full of it. Solar ain't as good as it could be, but then again, we've evolved millions of years with just the sun, eh? . Your cars can't run like they do. I've written articles on this subject and hydrogen too. It's an easy temporary stop-hurt so you quit thinking about shit. haha. stop thinking. then you'll all make us extinct and the earth can go onto next time. hahahahahaaha
Reply #37 Top
(Citizen)Myrrander


?
Reply #38 Top
We already pay billions to our farmers in subsidies so that they can produce crops at the same price as third world nations, and still keep the American "lifestyle". I've yet to see greenies consider the cost of those billions of dollars on our economy when we expand even further this socialistic junk in order to keep ethanol prices down.

Our 'gas' farmers will have to compete with the farmers clearcutting rainforest in order to grow these crops. Of course they can't, so eventually, again, it will be lucrative and the glut will have us paying farmers to grow corn that rots in the silos, and the money to do it will be taxed out of the valid economy. If there is a harsh bald spot in the American economy it has to be agriculture, and yet, here we are, claiming agriculture is somehow the savior of a thriving oil industry?

It's insane. Great article, Brad.
Reply #39 Top


I'd just like to say that where I live there are 3 Sugar Beets plants (Crystal Sugar) within a 100 mile radius of each other, and this is in some of the coldest climates in the US (Eastern North Dakota and Western Minnesota) and it is a very lucrative crop! I'm not sure of the overall market share it has compared to cane sugar but it is definitely a viable crop for the US!
Reply #40 Top
"Big Sugar" isn't anything to brag about. The world hates us for our sugar subsidies more than most other things, and that's why it's being abandoned by the government. It was a kickback boom industry that all but wiped out the industries in struggling countries around the world. Your sugar industry there is ONLY there because of untold millions paid to those producers by the government to keep the price low.

Now, it is boomeranging back in the other direction, and our growth is dwindling to nothing. Bleeding hearts will weep for the poor farmers, but any decent conservative would be loathe to praise paying tax dollars to farmers to artificially lower their prices. They're just borrowing from successful industries to make another valid.

It won't be any different with ethanol. You won't really know how much you are paying per gallon, because part of your fuel costs will come in a lump during tax time, with the money being sent to the farmers that raise the crops. Worse, thriving industries and entrepreneurs will be taxed, removing capital from other industries and investments.

So, what you have there with your sugar industry is a golden example of the farce that an ethanol economy will be. We see it failing now, we've had benefit concerts and bleeding heart sermons for decades to get the point across to us, but we refuse to apply those lessons to this.
Reply #42 Top
I agree with Brad's article, I don't think ethanol is the way to solve our energy problems. I was just responding to the assumptions that sugar can only be grown in limited areas in the US and that we would need some sort of incentive to get farmers to grow sugar beets, both assumptions are false.
Reply #43 Top
Eh, no, as I said, without the incentive of huge government subsidies, farmers won't. The EU is having the same problem. As I said, the success story you cite is due to untold millions of dollars in subsidies. Big Agriculture in America has even changed their mind about the sugar subsidies.

Sugar Beet Subsidies in United States totaled $242 million from 1995-2005.

"Making sugar from beet costs twice as much as making it from cane"

Link: The European Union currently pays about 1.5bn euros ($1.8bn, £1bn) per year in support to the sugar sector, by artificially boosting the price of sugar on the European market.

The EU guarantees producers a price of 632 euros per tonne, which is about three times the world price.



Reply #44 Top
Your missing my point, farmers do have a incentive to grow sugar crops at this moment because of the Government subsidies! Sugar Beets farmers in this area don't need an additional incentives to grow sugar beets MONEY enough of an incentive, They really don't care if it comes from the Government or from unsubsidized pure profit, money is money! So right or wrong there is indeed an incentive for farmers to grow Sugar Beets!
Reply #45 Top
Lol, I don't think you are thinking about this. You are claiming that farmers won't need incentive to grow sugar beets, and then admitting that hundreds of millions of dollars have been paid... as incentive to grow sugar beets.

Who cares where the money comes from? You should. You're paying for it. Anyway, there isn't so much incentive if you'd note the articles I linked. The government has hacking hard into those subsidies and the industry itself is beginning to rot on the vine.

It's irritating to see people who ignorantly claim an industry is "lucrative" when in fact the industry itself can't keep its head above water without subsidies. Is the airline industry "lucrative"? It's like saying being on government disability or welfare is lucrative. The government doesn't just conjure that money from thin air, it comes from you and me.

In terms to how this relates to fuel, consider the fact that a large part of your cost in ethanol or other "farmed" fuels will be extracted from you behind your back. You might be paying $2.50 a gallon at the pump, but if billions are being paid to farmers to grow it competitively, you'll be paying the extra, yourself at tax time. That isn't an honest look at the benefits of these fuels, it's the same old agricultural pit we've made ourselves for decades.

Reply #46 Top
"In America,
First you gets de sugar
Den you gets de powa
Den you gets de wimmen"
--H.J. Simpson
Reply #47 Top
You might be paying $2.50 a gallon at the pump, but if billions are being paid to farmers to grow it competitively, you'll be paying the extra, yourself at tax time


No, that's the beauty of it. Brad will. It's rob from the rich, GIVE to the poor, not the other way around.
Reply #48 Top
"Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's energy storage."

Bingo! And there are a few other dirty secrets about hydrogen that never seem to get brought up. First, hydrogen is the simplest atom that exists. What that means is that you can't fully contain hydrogen in a container -- it can seep through the atomic structure of any substance. You can, of course, slow the process by having thick walled heavy tanks -- more for the hydrogen to work through -- but this adds weight to the vehicle, therefore losing fuel efficiency. So you make thin walled tanks? Well, I hope you aren't a smoker.

Another dirty little secret about hydrogen fuel cells is that they use platinum in their structure, and with current technology, must be replaced within a couple of years. You think oil's getting scarce? Try becoming a platinum miner. To replace even just the US fleet would require nearly all of the platinum that is postulated to exist in the earth's crust -- for "batteries" that will be dead in a year or two. You trade "peak oil" for "peak platinum."

hydrogen is bollocks on a large scale -- so is ethanol. (see my above post about the space needed to grow corn or other sugar crops). Brad's brought up deforestation, which is a MASSIVELY valid point, not to mention every acre of fuel crops equals one acre not producing food. With falling water tables, overuse of fertilizer and pesticides/herbicides, can we really afford to lose any land to fuel crops? Or will we be like Brazil and chop it all down? The US has a pretty good forestry management system -- we've got more trees now than 100 years ago.

Excellent discussion, good on you all.

Reply #49 Top
and the other thing you aren't telling us is that the government pays more to farmers to not grow anything so that the price won't bottom out
Reply #50 Top

Well said Myrrander and Bakerstreet.

I haven't written much on Hydrogen fuel yet because I haven't done much research on it yet.  I waited on ethanol until I had finsihed learning enough until I felt comfortalbe writing about it.

But right now, 2007, Hydrogen doesn't look too promising to me.

It just seems crazy that we can't just go whole hog on plug-in hybrids.  We certainly have enough coal to last until we replace it with other things.

I also agree with Myrannder and others who feel that solar power is coming along nicely.  I bet within 20 years most new construction will have some solar panels on it. Sure, it won't eliminate our need for other energy sources but it could reduce our requirements considerably. 

I plan my next house to have some solar panels on it even though it probably won't do that much good (since we're in Michigan and it's a wooded area) but something is better than nothing.

But for nearly all of us, a plug-in hybrid vehicle makes the most sense. Adn I"m not talking about just little cars.  My Jag should be a hybrid. You don't really lose performance (heck, a well done electric motor could actually increaes the 0 to 60 performance). 

I think the car industry is making a big mistake thinking there aren't a sizeable chunk of the market that wouldn't pay a few grand premium for a plug-in hybrid. It's about convenience as well as knowing that we're having less overall impact on the environment.