A place on the shelf?   

Yes you are right, it has to be used correctly, and it can be a pain to master this effect (way too much options for me... I'm lazy). I just think that some people are using it a bit too much for their own good...

  

When someone mentions a 3D Windowblinds skin for some reason an image of a rotating start menu comes to mind.  I'd like to see some screenshots of other 3D skins and the concepts behind them.

I miss some of the great animations in WB.  I STILL like aquariium with fish swimming in the title bar.

Agreed.

I do 3D Max modelling and can't wait for 3D skinning to arrive.

I think there's quite a few people out there in the skinning community that uses 3D software. You often see graphics that's been rendered in 3D. Especially icons.

actually I'm only talking about WB skinning, using it for icons, cursors and such has a great benefit. But there is no reason to use a 3d program to make a 2d surface for WB skins. Of course you can, but if you can't make it truly appear 3d in Photoshop, you're kidding yourself when it comes to 3d.

I've been using 3d Max, Rhino, softImage, and Maya since 1994 or so, and Photoshop before that. I do have experience in what some people are talking about here. If you can not truly benefit with a 3d start menu (for example) why not just create the same thing in Photoshop? It'll be faster to create and easier to change/tweak it. If you are a Photoshop guru (which you should be before trying to tackle a 3d application since we're talking about skinning here) then you can do the exact same thing in PS without all the hassle and the drawbacks.

Just because it's made in 3d doesn't make it instantly better. Learn the tools you have before you try and overstep your own skills. I'm not being a pessimist on purpose, but I know the limitations and soon other people will see them too.

One thing you can do, which I do alot, is create the model for it in 3d and then color, texture, overlay it all in PS. I currently am doing this with a media player skin. I modeled the buttons and the graphical display in Max, but I only did that to get the angles correct. Outside of perspective, there isn't a "good" reason to make it in 3d, unless you just want to cramp your brain and limit your creativity. It is so much easier/faster creating a 2d surface in PS as opposed to 3d. Plus you can get the exact same results if you know what you're doing.

Now when we can have a true 3d operating environment, 3d will be a necessity, but as of now, you're really only limiting yourself if you try to make a WB skin in 3d. If you don't believe me, go ahead and try it. In fact I would love to see the results, but this is just a warning from someone who has already tried it.

Good post -Xino!
And I like the idea of creating the model with a 3D app, then use PhotoShop or PSP to texture it, I think that's the way to go for static icons.
When everything is 3D and animated, then it will be another story!

that's what I've done with my icons as well. you get great perspective with them and they don't look all funky. I absolutely loathe "3d" icons made in 2d programs with bad perspective. I refuse to even give them a second look.

Xino, I've check your WC page as well as your own web page, but I don't seem to be able to find a sample of an icon by you, I would love to see that, it sounds interesting! Do you have any exemple to share?

since WC doesn't have a work in progress area for uploading, I had to post it on DA. this is an old image, but I'm still working on the entire suite. work has kept me away from skinning for awhile unfortunately.

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20956608/

Xino, that's excellent! I mean it.

Are you planning on creating an IP based on this visual?

Perhaps those are your limitations, speaking for myself, and without elaborating on my methods, I can see many reasons to use 3D technology in all areas of skinning..including but not limited to WB.

I respect your opinion but I like to think outside the box and just because you do not see a benefit in no way means I dont. I'm constantly learning old tools and new tools and I wont brush something off as useless just because someone else thinks it is.

Besides.. even If I can't pull something innovative off in WB, at least I tried and will have more experience for when we do skin for a true 3D environment than someone who chose to disregard it.

For my part I'll take a more positive path and encourage people to look into it on their own terms.. you never know what you can do until you try.

To each their own eh.   

in response to Cycoced's comment about icons in modeling. (and no this is not intended to be an assault or anger derived...lol) The triangles you're referring to (or I think you're referring to) are called polygons. Polygons are what makes the model's surface what it is. If you're seeing those then they are not complete, OR it's an issue with UV Mapping. Bumps are usually caused by what's called a bump map, which is a form of texturing. The model can use several types of textures to simulate different effects. An example would be rust. If you want the rust to appear raised or indented you would apply a bump map, which is a desaturated gray scale version of the original texture map. The bump is utilized by the different levels of blacks being indents and whites or light being raised. The bump simulates a kind of transparency where tho the model's surface is smooth, will be made to appear rough by the bump. So it tricks you into thinking the surface degeneration is a part of the model's geometry. In reality the surface is as smooth as a baby's butt....lol. It's a difficult process to explain. As far as bevel is concerned almost every skin you will see has at least one example of a beveled edge, whether it's raised or sunken in. It adds the 3D appearence most ppl, including myself (bevel whore)....lol, are looking for. Without a bevel effect skins tend to appear flat. In some cases it's good, and fits, and others it just doesn't look right. I have made skins where almost everything possible is beveled...lol, yea I am insane. I think with the continuing hunger for ultra-realism 3D is sure to have a very welcome place in skinning. Think about how awesome it would look to open the OS and see legit 3D titlebars and buttons. Or to open the start menu and see something like Braniac's. With the refinement of skills toward not only skinning, but 3D, I believe we are very close to a dawning of a new era in unconventional 3D skinning being applied in a mass sense. I for one can't wait. Maya is an awesome app but it is NOT for the faint of heart, (causes severe nosebleeds, and massive anurisms)...lol. I personally use Rhino 3D for modeling, mainly because it's easier for me to NURBS model, but also because I've seen loads of ppl complain about it being impossible with organic modeling. It's just not true. Honestly if the propper surfacing techniques are applied, it's a very intuitive modeling app, and has no probs with organics.

thank you and yes, it'll be a full icon pack.



you seem to be reading more into my words than what is actually there. re-read my posts without thinking I'm cynical and you'll see I'm only typing about the truth of the matter. You seem to think I'm talking about all skinning, but I have stated several times, I'm only talking about WB. Also, until you can truly use PS and make it look 3d, like IR Brainiac did in PS (without any need for any 3d program mind you), you will have a hell of time trying to learn splines, nurb modelling, deformations, extrude and other methods in any 3d program.

you must crawl before you can walk.

I know I have personally put the time into learning these programs and I know for a fact what I'm talking about. please don't try and be some johnny-come-lately and tell me I have no clue what I'm talking about. I haven't done it with you, so I expect the same courtesy. All my post is, is a glimpse of how unnecessarily hard it is to make something in 3d for a 2d WB skin when you can get the exact smae results from a 2d program, if you have the knowledge to do it. there is no reason 3d programs in the creation pipeline for other anything than perspective, and even with PS CS3 and it's perspective tool, there is no need at all for any 3d program.

Until someone can prove that my statements are false, I stand by them. even Bill Bart who makes all the glorious WMP skins for The Skins Factory follows some of these same methods. Surely you can't be saying you know more than people who have actually done this before? I would post links to the articles about the creation of the Batman Forever WMP skin to further illustrate my point, but it seems TSF has taken them down for whatever reason on DeviantArt.

Please don't mistake the tone of my posts. I'm not being cynical, I'm not being egotistical, nor am I trying to be condescending. I am speaking from my 13+ years of experience with 3d programs and with various 2d programs.

until someone can prove to me there is a viable reason to make a 2d WB skin in 3d, I will continue to believe as I do.

But you can go ahead and think I'm an idiot who has no experience, but you have been told of the reasons it's unnecessary. Whether you choose to listen to someone with more experience is up to you.

I never said you had no experience but your assuming that just because i havent yet produced a 3d looking WB that I cant, how do you know what my 3D background is, How do you know that I havent learned splines, nurb modelling, deformations, extrude?? I have been learning and experimenting in 3DSMax for years also, you think your the only one that can use a 3D app? Perhaps I choose not to brag about it as though I wrote the book. Honestly your work doesn't lend itself to 13+ years experience.

So please don't assume that because I disagree with you that I doubt your knowledge and accordingly don't of me and don't put words in my mouth I never said you didnt know what you were talking about. Put simply, get your facts straight eh?

Don't tell me to crawl before I can walk when you frankly have NO idea WHAT I am capable of.

Your statements are your opinions and thats all. All I have to go on as far as your talent is what you have contributed to the site by way of WB's and I left you a comment on your most recent skin stating what I thought of your work based on your 13 years experience. Perhaps you should learn to crawl also in PS and SKS.

I don't have to prove why or why not I think 3D can be a benefit in WB, Hate to break it to ya but just because u have an opinion.. dont make it right. 13 years or not.

Lastly, no one likes a know-it-all that disregards other peoples endeavours because they cant accomplish what another tries to   

You wanna drag it out some more..be my guest.

Well, in defense to xino, I also agree. Modeling is a very complicated operation. Unlike 2D, 3D uses all 3 axis therefore all axis of the model must be represented. Like i mentioned before tho in my honest opinion Mapping is the most difficult process taken on in the process of modeling. With 2d, you apply the desired design, effecs, image, whatever, and you're done. with 3D, modeling is just the beginning to a long process of swearing and pulling your hair from it's roots..lol. I will never take anything away from skinning, or it's complexity, I'm mearly mentioning that it's two completely different processes, and should be treated as such to achieve the desired effect of melding them together.
Also keep in mind that even a 3D image is still only 2D if and when the object is rendered and applied to 2D purposes. 3D is only 3D while it's in the application it is suited for, which is a 3D app.
Also what Xino had mentioned about overlapping in photoshop is called map texturing. In order to successfully texture a model with any map you must first edit the model's geometry in waht's known as a UV mapping program. The use of this type of program allows you to import a 3D model into 2D purposes. The mesh is "flattened" according to how you want the mesh to be projected. You also have the ability to unwrap the model into several pieces depending on how the model is grouped, or identified. By disecting the model into material assignments you will have complete control of how you want to texture the model, and it's individual components.
Then you would save the reconfigured geometry, (which is also the object), and it's new UV map. By doing this you would be able to properly texture the model in any 2D app and save the texture as a jpg. The reason mapping is done is so that the model's geometry and textures both line up. If done incorrectly you would see massive distortion on the textures, and even parts of the texture's background color on the model.
It seems very obvious Xino knows exactly what he's talking about on this one...lol.
PS Xino if you ever wanna trade notes bro lemme know, I have 3DS max8, rhino3D and several others, maybe you can show me some pointers so my nose stops bleeding, and ya never know, even a seasoned vet could use some help from an intermediate like me

lol i'm stayin outa that one VStyler is maaaaad...lol. *zips lips and sits in corner*

Lifes too short to be mad. Just stating my case is all. Debate is healthy.   

Pretty much everything you said is egotistical and I'm not sure why you responded the way you did.

First off, don't attack my skills (or lack thereof in your opinion) just because I gave my opinion. I never once attacked you in any way. You're starting to sound alot like TSF, which I'm sure you will agree is an egotistical prick at times. You've had your own run-ins with him. Keep the personal insults out of this. Common courtesy please?

FYI, I have one a small handful of skins for the public. Most of the skins I've made are for friends and family. Just because I'm not publicly proficient doesn't mean anything. It just means I keep most of my stuff private because I don't want to release it for whatever reason.

We can disagree but be cordial about it. It is possible you know?

Just because I haven't uploaded alot of things here doesn't mean that skinning is all that I do. I personally have been working alot in the last year which stopped all of my skinbuilding. I've made alot of websites over the years, alot of digital artwork, and pages upon pages of traditional artwork which has never been published outside of a learning environment. my true passion is in animation. I skin because I hate the default user interfaces.

I never once said you can't do anything. In fact you're the one who stated you're trying to learn 3d so you can use it in your skinning skillset. I'm only going by what you stated, not me.

Also, I never said I'm an expert and I've never meant to come across as condescending. Like I said before please re-read my posts without a cynical eye. I may be blunt, but that doesn't make anything I said less true. In fact I stated that already, but you seem to want to argue for whatever reason.

I'm giving someone else (not you) the reasons why 3d skinning has no benefit in Windowblinds skinning, at least at the present moment. That's all my posts were about. I have no idea why you try to keep getting into a type fight on a forum for some reason.

Also the skin you posted on was based on a winamp skin and a LS theme. I didn't make most of the design choices. Other creative people did. But to base that skin on the ones I already mentioned, design choices were made for me.

Now if you would like to argue or discuss anything after this post, please e-mail me. it's in my profile. Who knows maybe we can learn from each other. But these little rants from both of us are getting this post offtopic. SOrry 'bout that gang.

Now back to the 3d in skinning topic.

I just wish some of the "professional" skinners out there would use 3d programs more in icon creation. When I see a great skin, but terrible perspective on icons, I will always refuse to pay for the skin and support the skinners, no matter who they are. A little time is all it takes from making your icons lackluster into stunning pieces of iconography. When I see something for sale, especially skins, I expect there to be alot of professionalism in it. I f I personally can make a better looking icon, why would I pay for one that I think is inferior?

My comments on your skin were nothing to do with design, IT was good. The execution..was not.










Cordial? Common Courtesy? Cmon dude.. get a grip.

Im done with ya.. get ur last word ( you know you have to).. and move on.

Actually texture mapping is an extremely arduous step. I mostly just used to click buttons until I found something I liked.

I'm not that good at modelling and I know it. I never found it was my storongest ability, so I focused on other things, like animation.

A description on how I did what I did in my previews:

For the single icon in the grizzlefish preview I posted, I did no texture mapping in 3d Max. I created the box and did all the extruding and such. Then I rendered out a targa w/ alpha and opened that in PS. From there I just used selection masks and gradients to get the proper lighting on the computer tower icon. Then I added in the glows and the other various small effects.

I find it's much easier to render a flat (not lighted) object than going through the hassle of setting up tons of lights to get the desired effect in any 3d program.

For the huge play button at the top, All that is is a capsule shaped like an aspirin. I then created a simple pyramid (triangle) and extruded that shape from the capsule. I did that so I would get the angles/perspective right in PS, so I wouldn't have to guess and get a silly looking end product. I then added the gloss effect with gradients and selection sets again to get the desired effect. The indention around the button was also added in PS with a simple layer style. The glows and such are also blurs and simple layer styles. After you add one after another, I finally came up with what I was looking for exactly.

Those are the ways I use 3d in my skins

Actually you took my comments out of context. When I said "you" I was speaking as a general "you" to anyone who could be reading this post. I apologize for any misunderstanding on that behalf.

Also design has a direct reflection on the execution. The font choices and such were not mine. I took no creative liberties with the skin at all and I closely adhered to what the others created before me. That's the last I'll say on the subject.

Now back to the 3d topic at hand, I hope.

Probably a case of 'you' being the collective [general] pronoun getting people all defensive through mis-interpretation.

Let's get back to nurbs, mip-mapping, et al ....

There was no mis-interpretation I wasn't born yesterday.