Wyndstar Wyndstar

Conquering Suicidal

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Conquering Suicidal

Strategy

from GalCiv2 Forums
In another thread Frogboy mentioned he wanted to know how players beat suicidal. Here are my two cents:

Sure, I can tell you how I beat 8+ AIs on Suicidal: (And no Ctrl-n cheese, play with what you've got)

First - Money. I need to do everything I can to maximize my money so that I always produce at 100%. Always spend the 4 points for +30% economy boost. Go evil to get a +100% economy boost.

Second - Diplomacy. Starting out I research xeno comm, univ trans, diplomacy, trade, interstellar, alliance, republic, adv diplo >> total majesty, and then democracy and federation in that order EVERY game - from there I look and see what areas I need to research. With my diplomacy that high (and another +60% now if your Krynn populists) I trade for every infrastructure and military tech, so I never fall behind. Sure, the AI will get hung up and never trade a few techs - basic logistics, advanced hulls and planetary invasion come to mind. But who cares if you don't get advanced hulls when it will happily trade you medium hulls? The techs it won't trade will only take you a few turns once your diplomacy research is done. A high diplomacy helps keep everyone happy with you as well. Also, dovetailing with point one, the improved governments (and trade) keep the cash flowing in.
Usually I wait until I research trade, and then "trade" trade to other civilizations to get other techs from them. From there on out I just trade techs between civilizations and hold onto all of my diplo techs. The only tech I ever research myself that I give away are the three levels of trade tech. All you need is your foot in the door to get a few techs to start your tech trading empire.

Third - Spin Control Center. You get this from Total Majesty. I know I can't fight anyone, but while I build infrastructure it keeps the few military ships I kick out looking scary. I like to put an orbital fleet manager and omega defense system next to the spin control, usually on my manufacturing capital world. Keep this world with 11 of your meanest ships at all times.

Fourth - Hit early, hit hard. As soon as my diplomacy research is done, sometimes before it is done - I pick an empire I want to take out. Figure out what weapons they use, and build a fleet to counter. Count all of their worlds, and build enough transports to wipe out the whole civilization in one turn. You simply MUST take out at least one AI in the first year and a half or you won't have enough territory to compete with the enemy. When it is time to strike - DO NOT DECLARE WAR! Not worth getting a negative diplomacy modifier. Instead, move all of your fighters and transports next to their worlds, and put a trade embargo on them. They will "know what you are doing", and declare war on you. But, they won't attack on the turn they declare war. So, after they declare war, wipe out every world. You probably won't wipe out all their ships, but that doesn't matter, territory is more valuable than ships. (new!) whether the remaining fleets go to enemies or become pirates doesn't really make a huge difference. All that matters is # of tiles you control. Maximize your territory.

Fifth (new!) - give your treaties away to people who are mad at you, while you prepare to take care of them. Nothing like another way to increase diplomacy.

Sixth - A house cannot stand divided against itself. Don't fight on two fronts. Do what you have to do to keep yourself at war with only one civ at a time. Take em down in chunks. Pay to split alliances or start wars between AIs. Ideally, you will never be at war yourself. If you are conquering someone, you do it one turn (except vs. the Yor w/new SA). Only if you make a mistake in diplomacy and someone declares war on you should you ever be in a position to be fighting a longer war.

Seventh - Use allies. I usually like to pick one or two civilizations that are a medium distance from me (the closest ones I want to conquer) that I want to hold on to for the whole game. Use all of that research and production and military they produce to my advantage. I work to build an alliance usually with two civs and keep them around until there are just 3 civs left (besides me) to break that alliance and destroy them. If one civ starts to get too far above me in military and relations aren't going well, I pay my allies to attack it, just because war will wear down both sides. Unlike a typical war declaration, if you pay an ally to go to war with someone - you don't get the "honor your alliance and go to war" dialogue, so you can stay at peace with the threat civ while your allies get blown to bits.

No deep dark secrets there. In short, money, diplomacy, and let the AIs do most of the research and fighting for you. I'm sure there are other strategies, and sometimes I will design a custom empire to try out a different tactic. The above represents my most dependable strategy for beating the game in my experience.
60,485 views 49 replies
Reply #26 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Build the Mind Control Center.
Reply #27 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The Mind Control Center is *still* broken in DA too?
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry to be a math jerk, but I keep seeing this and it rubs me wrong!

+100% is stacked with the economic bonus's of the civilzation.

It does not double it, unless that civ has +0% economic bonuses. if you have a natural +30%m Federation's +30% and say three economic starbases maxed out, an MCC would bring you from +177% to +277% which is is only a 36% of you pre-MCC economy. Still big I admit.

That brings me to my next question. On harder difficulties, is the AI bonus stacked or is it added to the base?
Reply #29 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So far as I am aware, the Artificial Slave Center is the only bonus that is not stacked.
Reply #30 from GalCiv2 Forums Top



From what I've seen - and logically I've no reason to think it'd be different at Suicidal - its actually easier to win with more opponents to start with than fewer.


I agree. Also, as someone noted elsewhere, huge maps are easier 'cause they ask more for a long term strategical effort then a tactical one and the AI is, obviously, weaker at strategy.

Personally i play suicidal, huge maps, but very few inhabitable planets. My strategy is to rush for sensors and get all the possible bonuses (and money) from anomalies, while i go out for exploration with 4-5 cargo-scouts (which i will soon upgrade in survey vessels), a couple of colony ships and some constructors.

Like wyndstar i too always spend the 4 points for the 30% economy bonus but, because i play with tech trading on, as super ability i choose diplomacy.

About the ethics i go for neutral. All in all is the best choice.You can make very profitable (and long term) evil choices during the game balanced by the loss of few money coming from good choices.

If i have time, because of peaceful opponents around, i immediatly research for better forms of government to keep my economy in shape. If there are some dangerous races in the neighborhood i try a war at the end of my first or second year, as soon as i discover the medium hull technology.

I know that there is an endless discussion about defense but, in my experience, i always win my first war due to defense. I don't need to search the most powerful weapon, only the right one to strike my opponent. My ships last for a very long time and, while i upgrade them, i can build constructors to implement my starbases on resources or i can make money.

I use a lot of spies when i go to war. I don't know if they are a tactical turn in my favour but when i start a war i place about 7-10 spies on the planets of my opponent to stop his production and slow the research. I start to produce spies since the 1st turn of gameplay. Compared with the money you receive from tech trading and anomalies, the cost of spies in the very beginning is nothing.

Anyway the key, in my style of playing, is micro-management. I work with the bars almost every turn during the first year. Later, when i'm enough powerful, i can even ignore the bars (if i don't need to change radically my strategy) but, in the beginning the micro-management is everything. It's a lot of saved money and a lot of advantage on the AI (i.e. before exploring an anomaly, i change the tech i'm searching with a more expensive one, in case the anomaly will give me the 25% research bonus).

So, in my games anomalies and mining resources are more important than planets. At least in the beginning. This depends probably on the fact that i play with few inhabitable planets but, on the other side, the truth is that from anomalies and bonus resources i get so much bonuses that i always cover any gap with the AI. From this solid position i start my conquest. Obviously there are a lot of changes and correction in my strategy depending on the global situation and on the opportunities around, but in the end the galaxy is going to be ruled by only one power.

richard
Reply #31 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Personally i play suicidal, huge maps, but very few inhabitable planets.


That's easier on Suicidal? That surprises me. I'd think the AI would run away with it, because you're isolated in your little space and the AI has 100% bonuses.

I've always tried dense maps, because it lets me rush my nearest neighbor before he gets a chance to run away with it. Then I've got twice as many planets, which makes up for the AI bonus. You may be right, though. What I do is not easy.
Reply #32 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Here is my trick -

Scour the galaxy looking for resources that are owned by a race X. Move a constructor and warship tough enough to take out the mining base to that resource. Then cause a war between Race X and Race Y. Sell or gift the ship to Y and there is about a 75% chance that they will destroy the mining base for you.

Make sure that the ship/mining base you want is a reasonable difference to Race Y's turf, otherwise they will just move their new ship back to said turf.

I have captured 5-6 resources using this strategy and didn't have to go to war with anyone.

Dano
Reply #33 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
.. economy-vise. They still have 100% advantge in research and production, ~40% in miniaturization, unknown in influence... and Brad knows what else.




Iztok, is that documented anywhere? I mean, thats certainly what it seems like when playing suicidal, but the documentation only refers to the 100% economic...I always just assumed the incresed tech and production was because of all the cash the AI had.

So are you saying all the documentaion on the game is a bunch of filthy lies (as Ive always suspected) ?
Reply #34 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
BTW, I strongly suggest you revistit some of your suicidal strategies with the new 1.5x patch. They seem to have nerfed the hell out of treaties, and diplomacy in general. Unless youve got super diplomat, even with diplo-trans, I dont think youre going to be able to cheese diplomacy nearly as easily to keep up tech wise (though the AI trades and advances just as prolifically).

I knew it was a bad sign in the suicidal game I started tonight when the Torians had a manufacturing capital on the second turn, and the Korath didnt seem to give two figs about the Economic treaty I offered. With diplo-trans, they offered me about 20 bc for it. I think its going to be a long night (or maybe not).
Reply #35 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
> .. economy-vise. They still have 100% advantge in research and production,
> ~40% in miniaturization, unknown in influence... and Brad knows what else.

Iztok, is that documented anywhere?

Not that I'm aware of. Stated is only the bonus in economy, a hint in journals about better miniaturization, and that hint about "various other bonuses". I've also read about balancing those high levels, so maso bonuses might not be so strong in current game version.

But from observing planetary production in maso games I played, the AIs got from a single Xeno Lab, one Factory and Initial Colony, no starbase support and ~35% research bonus 48 SP AND 36 MPs. I also had posted
a topic where the Arcea (a single planet) produced tree times the SPs and two times the MPs than my whole empire of 11 planets (~150 tiles, all used). The 100% bonus I mentioned is probably too low estimate.

So are you saying all the documentaion on the game is a bunch of filthy lies (as Ive always suspected) ?

I never said that - for documentation being lies there sould ba a purpose behind it. I heavily doubt in that. However the documentation is severely outdated, sometimes to the point of being misleading. But that's the price we have to pay for developers being so responsive to our requests and complaints.

BR, Iztok
Reply #36 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So, Masochrinthus (you don't mind if I call you Masochrinthus, do you?)--do you have a job? :O Go to school during the day? Do you recognize what that big bright thing is in the sky during the daytime? With that level of patience, I suggest a career in accounting for you. Or pro golf. Or work for my ex-boss.

I have demanding career developing multi-threaded edge servers (that need to be reliable and secure) that stream audio and video for AOL Radio and SHOUTcast, plus I have a 60mile/100km commute to this job! I have a wife and two young daughters. So I have very little time to play GalCiv2. These epic games take months to complete. I think I started my current game in late Nov. 2006 (after resubmitting my last MV game)! That's why I giving up on playing this epic games because they take too long. When I return to a game after a week or two it takes me 1/2 hour just to see where this left off!

p.s. Check out The Story of the Mithrilar, Arnor, Dread Lords, Humans, Altarians, and Drath to see the origin of my name.
Reply #37 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Personally i play suicidal, huge maps, but very few inhabitable planets. My strategy is to rush for sensors and get all the possible bonuses (and money) from anomalies, while i go out for exploration with 4-5 cargo-scouts (which i will soon upgrade in survey vessels), a couple of colony ships and some constructors

I also play suicidal/huge maps (but with lots of planets - have habitable planets, resources, and anomalies all maxed). I definitely agree, though, that sensors are HUGE. The AI ignores them - and it's the one tech I will not trade (until all the anomalies are gone, at least)... Even those 1-2% bumps in influence, econ, soldiering, etc -- add up. I'm ALWAYS tops in soldiering, econ, etc no matter what inherent race abilities my opponents have.

I'm also disposed to longer games - I play peacefully and make it a point to acquire ALL trade goods and galactic wonders. I trade constantly - flipping techs all over the board (easpecially early with the minors... minors make better conquests when they've built their own econ, tech, and manufacturing capitals... sometimes, I'll even 'protect' them if I can coax them into building the Hyperion shrinker or Logistic whatchamacallit).

Inevitably - someone notices my weakness and tries to take me out (can't say I blame them - such nice juicy, wonder-laden planets with no starships defending them). Here - I make good use of the diplo translators and other diplo wonders to turn the rest of the galaxy against my agressor. I've been known to empty my entire tech advantage in order to bring a strategically critical AI or 2 into the war on my side.

I do admit -- I CTRL+N until I get a good opening setup (I prefer to be stuck in a corner). I have edited the custom planets file to make my home system a killer 5 planet system (though - I play against all custom opponents, so everyone has the same advantage... I suppose you could still call it something of exploit, but the AI gets the same boost I do).


Reply #38 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
zonk i follow almost the same strategy step by step and i never give up sensor too. i don't ctrl+N but it's true that a bad start with this kind of strategy most of the time it's a ticket for defeat. Actually i play few inhabitable planets 'cause i have no patience to micromanage too many planets and i think all in all is easier to find a good corner planet in the beginning.

richard
Reply #39 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I also play suicidal/huge maps (but with lots of planets - have habitable planets, resources, and anomalies all maxed). I definitely agree, though, that sensors are HUGE. The AI ignores them - and it's the one tech I will not trade (until all the anomalies are gone, at least)...

Sensors are not just critical to the colonization phase (finding the best planets, resources, and anomalies), but also is critical to preventing surprise attacks by the AI and instead surprising the AI. The AI does not value sensors and will not offer much in trade. I have been complaining for a year that the AI's lack of interest in sensors places them at a disadvantage. Brad/Frogboy replied it is intentional due to performance concerns (e.g., expensive for the AI to analyze the data from good sensors).
Reply #40 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well, you might want to ignore most of this post now.

Since the 1.5X update, playing with the strategy I listed above doesn't work well anymore. I have lost several games already surprisingly fast. Don't know if they made changes responding to my feedback, or that of other players. In any case, most of these tactics are no longer really useful. Except for money - you still need that to compete.

Good luck aspiring emperors!
Reply #41 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I have been complaining for a year that the AI's lack of interest in sensors places them at a disadvantage. Brad/Frogboy replied it is intentional due to performance concerns (e.g., expensive for the AI to analyze the data from good sensors).


Um, wow. We have sliders to set super-high AI CPU use, though. I wonder why that couldn't trigger the AI to use better sensors.

Heck, I know nothing about modding this game, but I wonder if this is moddable.
Reply #42 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well, you might want to ignore most of this post now.

Since the 1.5X update, playing with the strategy I listed above doesn't work well anymore.


I told you guys to keep your lips shut! Now see what you did?
Reply #43 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Since the 1.5X update, playing with the strategy I listed above doesn't work well anymore. I have lost several games already surprisingly fast.

I'm finishing up a DL 1.2 suicidal gigantic game with ~500 planets, started back in Nov.! Going from DL 1.2 to DA 1.5X will be like playing a whole new game. I have never come close to losing a game to the AI. I hope the AI can beat me playing DA; it makes it more fun if you are always on the edge of losing.

What are you noticing different in the AI's behavior?
Reply #44 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Since the 1.5X update, playing with the strategy I listed above doesn't work well anymore. I have lost several games already surprisingly fast.


What are you noticing different in the AI's behavior?


Actually, just took some adjustment on my part. Under this strategy, I built no research buildings and traded for all the tech I needed. With the tech trading "nerf", right out of the bat I found myself quickly overwhelmed by the AIs tech, and their "group research" advantage.

However, I made one slight alteration which basically fixed my problem. Rather than trying to trade for tech, I went to building only researching buildings, and selling all of my tech for money, and then used the money to run my empire and production. Basically, switched the strategy of point 2. Otherwise, everything still holds, more or less.

Hope that helps.
Reply #45 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
However, I made one slight alteration which basically fixed my problem. Rather than trying to trade for tech, I went to building only researching buildings, and selling all of my tech for money, and then used the money to run my empire and production. Basically, switched the strategy of point 2.

I thought with the changes to tech trading that the AI is not offering much for trades, or is it just demanding too much for its tech?
How are you out researching the AI given their "group research" advantage? Are you setting research spending to 100%, only building labs, and using the focus buttons to convert that output to social or military production?
I don't think Brad thought players would adopt build only factories or labs as advanced strategies but that is possible given the crazy GalCiv II model. Was it this way in GalCiv I?
Reply #46 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I thought with the changes to tech trading that the AI is not offering much for trades, or is it just demanding too much for its tech?
How are you out researching the AI given their "group research" advantage?


Perhaps you haven't read this. My shortest answer is to refer you to a game play example I recently wrote here. You can't get tech from the AI, but you can get everything else.

In short, yes, using an all labs strategy, with 0/0/100 sliders. Most of your questions are probably better answered in that AAR though.
Reply #47 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes I had read that AAR (and many others a while back) but I thought it was played before the devs nerfed tech trading.

Did GalCiv 1 allow all factory and all labs strategies to work? I maintain there should be 1 slider for factory output, 1 for the split between military/social, and 1 for research output. Then on planets there should be focus buttons to concentrate factory output on military or social but not research. You should not be able to research with factories or build with labs!
Reply #48 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I see what you are saying about factories and labs Mascrinthus, but I think you should keep in mind this is set in the future.

The Laboratories in Gal Civ 2 are called upon to research a exceedingly broad array of technologies: banking, drive technologies, linguistics, terraformation, weapons and defenses and a slew of other varied things - they need to have their own workshops to bang out prototypes to test, not to mention future physics labs with the power to generate black holes etc.

As for factories, they cannot run entirely on slave labour - they would have to have lots of engineers to oversee the production processes and designs. Now just imagine giving a bunch of engineers access to a giant factory equipped with fusion power, nanotechnology and smart robots and asking them to design something that fulfills a specific function.

I think it would be perfectly possible for labs to do some manufacturing and factories to do some research - it shouldn't be efficient, but it should be very possible. As for slave labour for manufacturing with labs - well, what are students and postgrads for anyway?