Conquering Suicidal

Strategy

In another thread Frogboy mentioned he wanted to know how players beat suicidal. Here are my two cents:

Sure, I can tell you how I beat 8+ AIs on Suicidal: (And no Ctrl-n cheese, play with what you've got)

First - Money. I need to do everything I can to maximize my money so that I always produce at 100%. Always spend the 4 points for +30% economy boost. Go evil to get a +100% economy boost.

Second - Diplomacy. Starting out I research xeno comm, univ trans, diplomacy, trade, interstellar, alliance, republic, adv diplo >> total majesty, and then democracy and federation in that order EVERY game - from there I look and see what areas I need to research. With my diplomacy that high (and another +60% now if your Krynn populists) I trade for every infrastructure and military tech, so I never fall behind. Sure, the AI will get hung up and never trade a few techs - basic logistics, advanced hulls and planetary invasion come to mind. But who cares if you don't get advanced hulls when it will happily trade you medium hulls? The techs it won't trade will only take you a few turns once your diplomacy research is done. A high diplomacy helps keep everyone happy with you as well. Also, dovetailing with point one, the improved governments (and trade) keep the cash flowing in.
Usually I wait until I research trade, and then "trade" trade to other civilizations to get other techs from them. From there on out I just trade techs between civilizations and hold onto all of my diplo techs. The only tech I ever research myself that I give away are the three levels of trade tech. All you need is your foot in the door to get a few techs to start your tech trading empire.

Third - Spin Control Center. You get this from Total Majesty. I know I can't fight anyone, but while I build infrastructure it keeps the few military ships I kick out looking scary. I like to put an orbital fleet manager and omega defense system next to the spin control, usually on my manufacturing capital world. Keep this world with 11 of your meanest ships at all times.

Fourth - Hit early, hit hard. As soon as my diplomacy research is done, sometimes before it is done - I pick an empire I want to take out. Figure out what weapons they use, and build a fleet to counter. Count all of their worlds, and build enough transports to wipe out the whole civilization in one turn. You simply MUST take out at least one AI in the first year and a half or you won't have enough territory to compete with the enemy. When it is time to strike - DO NOT DECLARE WAR! Not worth getting a negative diplomacy modifier. Instead, move all of your fighters and transports next to their worlds, and put a trade embargo on them. They will "know what you are doing", and declare war on you. But, they won't attack on the turn they declare war. So, after they declare war, wipe out every world. You probably won't wipe out all their ships, but that doesn't matter, territory is more valuable than ships. (new!) whether the remaining fleets go to enemies or become pirates doesn't really make a huge difference. All that matters is # of tiles you control. Maximize your territory.

Fifth (new!) - give your treaties away to people who are mad at you, while you prepare to take care of them. Nothing like another way to increase diplomacy.

Sixth - A house cannot stand divided against itself. Don't fight on two fronts. Do what you have to do to keep yourself at war with only one civ at a time. Take em down in chunks. Pay to split alliances or start wars between AIs. Ideally, you will never be at war yourself. If you are conquering someone, you do it one turn (except vs. the Yor w/new SA). Only if you make a mistake in diplomacy and someone declares war on you should you ever be in a position to be fighting a longer war.

Seventh - Use allies. I usually like to pick one or two civilizations that are a medium distance from me (the closest ones I want to conquer) that I want to hold on to for the whole game. Use all of that research and production and military they produce to my advantage. I work to build an alliance usually with two civs and keep them around until there are just 3 civs left (besides me) to break that alliance and destroy them. If one civ starts to get too far above me in military and relations aren't going well, I pay my allies to attack it, just because war will wear down both sides. Unlike a typical war declaration, if you pay an ally to go to war with someone - you don't get the "honor your alliance and go to war" dialogue, so you can stay at peace with the threat civ while your allies get blown to bits.

No deep dark secrets there. In short, money, diplomacy, and let the AIs do most of the research and fighting for you. I'm sure there are other strategies, and sometimes I will design a custom empire to try out a different tactic. The above represents my most dependable strategy for beating the game in my experience.
60,484 views 49 replies
Reply #1 Top
Shhh. Youre giving away our best secrets
Reply #2 Top
Hi Wyndstar could you list your complete map settings, what Race and abilities you favour and why do you prefer evil over neutral. Would like to know more about your play in the 1st year and a half of play.

Personally I can beat maso level quite easily and am thinking of playing at a higher level some of your stategys are possibly quite different to mine so would like to know more about your strategy in general.
Reply #3 Top
(And no Ctrl-n cheese, play with what you've got)


That is a significant self deception, why? because who is to say you won't get an overly generous map the first time?

Even if no one used CNTRL+N, out of all the people starting games, some are going to get brilliant maps.
Reply #4 Top
Well, one might consider using the same strategy repeatedly and/or taking advantage of AI weaknesses like poor trading intelligence to be cheese too.

Reply #5 Top
taking advantage of AI weaknesses like poor trading intelligence to be cheese too


I personally turn tech trading off. No matter how good Brad/frogboy is at coding AI I believe a decent intelligence human will have the advantage in this area. However I havn't played tech trading for a long time im sure its great for beginners.

Reply #6 Top
Checked Wyndstars metaverse stats and all your DA suicidal stats are tiny/small maps so not really impressive. Try large about 90-100 planets 8/9 opponents then i'd be impressed.
Reply #7 Top
I only once did a suicidal huge, and that was some time ago. I work as an attorney, so I don't have lots of time to spend on a game. I like to play on my (lmited) time off, and I like the sense of satisfaction of completing a mission, so I try and design challenges that will take me 2-4 hours to win or lose at.

I found huge maps easier because I was able to develop more infrastructure before my first war. Also diplomacy was easier because I didn't have to deal with the close borders and alarming influence negatives. And they were waaaaaaaay more time consuming.

Sorry you are not impressed. However, I wasn't trying to be impressive. Frogboy asked a question and I was answering it.
Reply #8 Top
Try large about 90-100 planets 8/9 opponents then i'd be impressed.


but would it be harder or just take longer?

When you think that the true test is to survive the early stages, once your in a position to start pushing back the AI, small or large map the only real difference is how long it takes to win?
Reply #9 Top
Main reason I think small/tiny maps might be quite easy at the moment even at suicidal is because of the spore ship. Using a spore ship and diplomacy strategy on a small map with few planets I don't think the AI would stand a chance.

Perhaps i'm wrong don't know as I dont play small maps. Usually play large havn't played bigger than that due to time constaints as well so understand fully.

I think lucky starts probably are a much bigger factor in beating suicidal on small maps though due to less planets.
Reply #10 Top
I think turning TechTrading off actually makes the suisidal difficulty much easier, at least in DL it did. Since for the AI players that should be "TechSharing" not trading.
Reply #11 Top
Well, the small/tiny suicidal missions you were referring to were all posted before the release of DA, so even if spore ships *did make that size easier, I didn't take advantage.

And I keep going back and forth on tech trading. If you turn it off, you need to focus more on research, and I always take the technologist political party. If you turn it on, no need to spend almost anything on research, but it is a lot harder to really outclass an enemy in tech... you more have to beat them by overcoming their industry.

One more diplomacy trick I forgot to mention... rather than upgrading or selling those old, low tech ships, give them as gifts. The AI still values them highly.

As for neutral over evil, or vice versa, I can go with either. I usually pick an ethical alignment that goes with the civs I've decided I want an alliance with. There are some real advantages to both alignments. I tried several times to beat suicidal with a good alignment, and I think MAYBE I could do it if I wanted an alliance victory. I did it once using a cultural victory, and it was like pulling teeth (and cultural victories feel more exploitive than diplo victories). But after four frustrating defeats using good going for military victory I just gave up. Defense is not good enough in this game for "super defense techs" to be worth anything, losing maintenance on the starting colony for 5 colonies is ridiculously small drop in the bucket of an economy, and good civs usually die quick enough that background trading revenue with them doesn't really matter much either.

If I'm trying to get a good metaverse score, then I go with abundant everything and tech set to very high so that I can start maxing out my population and military values early. If I don't care about score (playing offline, for instance) I usually go with very slow research. I just have more fun with that, and it makes each level of weapons technology more useful. I personally love it when year 4 or 5 rolls around, and armies of harpoon ships are in trouble becuase the other side just upgraded past plasma to oooh, phasors! Gives more of a scratching out a living on the frontier feel to the game, in my opinion.

Other than that, I set anamolies to very low, turn off minor races, and I also like tight clusters as my star setting. This makes each "cluster" feel kind of like a continent, and you have a few civs clustered together in a few pockets. In each area usually one will dominate, and then the endgame becomes a battle of these "star contintents".

I'm happy to answer any other questions. And diplomacy spamming isn't the only strategy that I've used, it is just the most dependable, so I thought I would talk about that one. I have no doubt there are much better players out there, and my hat goes off to you. I was really just answering the devs question about strategy(ies) to beat suicidal.
Reply #12 Top
With tech trading off, do the enemy AIs still trade? That is, is it a limitation on the player or on everyone?
Reply #13 Top
This talk does bring up one good way to take on Suicidal: start on Tiny maps, work your way up. I do that with everything I do. It's not about it being more difficult on larger maps, just more time consuming. You're not going to get better if it takes 3 days to see if your strategy works.
Reply #14 Top
With tech trading off, do the enemy AIs still trade?


No.
Reply #15 Top
Tech trading off is going to be much harder than on at suicidal levels, at least early on. At lower levels, it's true the AI benefits from tech sharing, meaning you can't get that huge a jump on them (unless you also trade extensively). At suicidal, whilst it's true they'll all develop slower, they will likely *all* be much quicker than you. That blitz strike to take out other civs in few turns is much harder when their weapons tech massively outclasses yours.
Reply #16 Top

Checked Wyndstars metaverse stats and all your DA suicidal stats are tiny/small maps so not really impressive. Try large about 90-100 planets 8/9 opponents then i'd be impressed.


I'm more impressed at someone willing to help out the mid-level players such as myself.
I didn't find hubris in his original posting, just sound advice (some new, some not). Of course strategies and scenario's change according to a multitude of variables.

From what I've seen - and logically I've no reason to think it'd be different at Suicidal - its actually easier to win with more opponents to start with than fewer. Why? Because if you can at least stay off the bottom of the chart, they will war on each other just as willingly as they will with you. Fewer opponents makes it more likely you'll get singled out and attacked. On a larger map, also, you've much more room for expansion and development.

Thanks for the post, Wyndstar.

Reply #17 Top
Always nice to be appreciated

Your welcome.
Reply #18 Top
Try large about 90-100 planets 8/9 opponents then i'd be impressed.

Currently, I'm in the final mop up stage of a v1.2 gigantic everything abundant game with ~500 planets and 9 opponents, at level Suicidal! I never needed the spin control center; even without it the AI never declared war until I parked my transports within striking distance of his planets. I just build up my planets plus grow my population and economy far better than the AIs. Then I just pick them off one by one. These epic games are not more difficult, just very, very long. There should be a medal for anyone with the patience to complete these epic games!

After I complete this game, I'm forgetting about the Metaverse. I'll upgrade to DA and play a medium map game (according to Brad the AI's best game) with normal settings, tech trading disabled, and all AI players at the maximum level with maximum bonuses. I'd like to see how the new AI fairs at its best game.
Reply #19 Top
I am just curious, wouldn't building the mind control center (+100% to economy) cancel out any advantage the AI had from that point in the game on? In other words, a doubling of tax revenues on citizens is the only advantage the AI gets correct?
Reply #20 Top
Yeah, I took Brad's advice and have been playing exclusively on medium maps with his suggested settings for the last week or so. Still very doable even on suicidal, takes me about 10-12 hours (which for me means saving and multiple day games).
Reply #21 Top

I am just curious, wouldn't building the mind control center (+100% to economy) cancel out any advantage the AI had from that point in the game on? In other words, a doubling of tax revenues on citizens is the only advantage the AI gets correct?


don't see why it wouldn't... I think the AI may get some miniaturization bonus too, but still, MCC neutralizes the most important advantage the AI has. Also, the player can usually customize his race better to get more out of the extra picks, so you can pretty much draw equal with the AI by building mind control.

Of course, the AI may still be at an advantage since they have their economy bonus from day one and used it to colonize more planets.
Reply #22 Top
Hi!
you can pretty much draw equal with the AI by building mind control.

... economy-vise. They still have 100% advantge in research and production, ~40% in miniaturization, unknown in influence... and Brad knows what else.

BR, Iztok
Reply #23 Top
Currently, I'm in the final mop up stage of a v1.2 gigantic everything abundant game with ~500 planets and 9 opponents, at level Suicidal!


So, Masochrinthus (you don't mind if I call you Masochrinthus, do you?)--do you have a job? :O Go to school during the day? Do you recognize what that big bright thing is in the sky during the daytime? With that level of patience, I suggest a career in accounting for you. Or pro golf. Or work for my ex-boss.
Reply #24 Top
Hi!

you can pretty much draw equal with the AI by building mind control.

... economy-vise. They still have 100% advantge in research and production, ~40% in miniaturization, unknown in influence... and Brad knows what else.

BR, Iztok


This is what I was wondering. So the description that says the AI gets 100% economy bonus is misleading, they get double research and production rates too, plus other hidden bonuses?

Why isn't this stated in the difficulty description? I mean obviously the kitchen sink is being thrown at the player (if those are true) without him having knowledge of it.
Reply #25 Top

One thing I don't understand is you said Evil gets a 100% economy boost. I've never noticed this and I've never seen it listed in the description for evil. Do you have to build a certain building to get it?