It's not just the Americans

This is the last thing we need more negativity. The June 30 deadline seems like a countdown to a timebomb.

Successfully updated karma reason!

JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+17

I had a long talk with my grandfather when I was in college. We talked about how differently people reacted to the stress of war time. One of his jobs as a GI in the South Pacific during WWII was cleaning body parts off the air strip. He said that one guy that had just come on duty totally wigged out. A buddy of my grandpa's tossed an arm at the guy and the guy just stood there, let it hit him, then he tore his clothes off and ran off naked, screaming like a mad man.

You are probably wondering what my point is...right? Well, I think some soldiers in every war end up hating the enemy and demonstrate that hate in any way they can, i.e. torturing prisoners. It is a difficult thing to fathom not hating people who kill your buddies every day. Some people just can't control their hate in order to behave appropriately. Everyone is wired differently. I don't doubt that their governments will deal with them accordingly though.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2414

Okay here's the thing:

Some US soldiers mistreated some Iraqi POWs. Okay. Bad. The world shrieks in outrage. Demands of justice.

On the other hand, Iraqi insurgents set American civilians delivering food supplies on fire, drag their bodies through the streets and then hang them upside down from a bridge for 4 days and the world shrieks how we need to negotiate with the people who did this.

I'm sorry but when American soldiers start burning Iraqi POWs to death and hanging them upside down from bridges then come talk to me about outrage. Punish the soldiers at fault and move on. It's disgusting that this is getting the level of coverage it gets given that we JUST had these atrocities commited against Americans a few weeks ago by cohorts of the abused Iraqi POWs.

Successfully updated karma reason!

On the other hand, Iraqi insurgents set American civilians delivering food supplies on fire, drag their bodies through the streets and then hang them upside down from a bridge for 4 days and the world shrieks how we need to negotiate with the people who did this.

This is true. War isn't pretty, and it isn't pleasant. I too think that this is getting more attention than it deserves, considering what's going on in Iraq at the moment.

My point is posting this article was to try and show that it's not just Americans. Some comments have been made recently here at JoeU that I felt pointed the finger at the US...and it's NOT just the US.

Jill's right - war, stress, and hatred can make a person do some completely out-of-character things.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I would hope that no one thinks that this prison abuse is anything approaching other horrors in Iraq, including, of course, those of Saddam Hussein. I'm sure that some may be howling as part of a partisan politics thing, but I am equally sure that no one really believes this is anything approaching that level.

Personally, I think, though, that the situation goes a long ways towards demonstrating Colin Powell's wisdom that "You break it, you own it." We have ourselves in an extremely difficult situation with no good solution, and a large part of that could have been predicted. For that matter, it goes a long way towards explaining how President Bush was right in his campaign platform four years ago. Once you ride into another country for the purpose of putting things right -- for the most part, all on our own in the teeth of world opinion -- the pressure is on you to actually make things right, in order to justify the human price of the undertaking. And when things go wrong, most will hold you to a very high standard.

After all, to most non-Americans, those Iraqis who committed atrocities against Americans can at least excuse their actions as being their only defense against an invading force.

Meanwhile, those American soldiers are holding foreign soil at gunpoint for the justification of bringing justice to the land, and thus must not commit acts of injustice.

As I see it, we have put our soldiers in a grossly unfair situation, and I feel for them deeply. As has happened repeatedly throughout history, leaders' failings are being paid for with everyday people's blood. And please note that I do not, for a moment, think that Democrats should be making political hay out of this.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The British incident is being investigated. There are some important differences though.

- This was an out of the blue accusation with NO previous accusations or knowledge.

- There are some serious authenticity questions about the photos. Many people suspect they are staged

Neither of these change the fact that accusations have been made and are being investigated. The British minister responsible for the armed forces gave a speech in the house of commons on this issue and stated that no stone would remain unturned in getting to the truth and punishing anyone responsible.

As mentioned the important difference here is that there is no suggestion that the authories knew or allowed this to continue. This is immediately treated as a serious accusatino and if found to be true the soldiers will be prosecuted. No dismissal but no prosecutions here. With both the European courts and the ICC as back up if people feel the British authorities are not being severe enough.

Paul.

Successfully updated karma reason!

kingbee

Join Date 04/2004

+42

On the other hand, Iraqi insurgents set American civilians delivering food supplies on fire, drag their bodies through the streets and then hang them upside down from a bridge for 4 days and the world shrieks how we need to negotiate with the people who did this

the 4 americans who were set upon, burned, mutilated and desecrated in falloujah were not your ordinary civilians delivering food supplies according to the associated press: "It was unclear why the American contractors were traveling unescorted in such a dangerous area. The four worked for Blackwater Security Consulting of Moyock, N.C., which provides training and guard services to customers around the world. "

those kind of contractors arent there to give estimates on a new roof. theyre armed and trained and apparently put themselves in harm's way.

if it ultimately turns out the iraqi public was aware of what was going on in abu ghurayb (it seems likely they would have) and the mob associated these security people with those who participated in abuse of detainees it might be more comprehensible although certainly still savage.

Successfully updated karma reason!

You don't have to deal with these people. You need to deal with the thousands of others. Only a tiny fraction of Falluja citizens were involved yet 300000 of them then suffered with the US response. Those tiny few were probably laughing. Those tiny few will be brought to justice. The US blundered in how it tried to bring them to justice.

There is no excuse for attrocities or torture on either side. None.

Paul.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'm sorry but when American soldiers start burning Iraqi POWs to death and hanging them upside down from bridges then come talk to me about outrage. Punish the soldiers at fault and move on. It's disgusting that this is getting the level of coverage it gets given that we JUST had these atrocities commited against Americans a few weeks ago by cohorts of the abused Iraqi POWs.

but what if our soldiers only go partway? say, a little burning with an iron, no killing mind you, just a few second and third degree burns. would that outrage you? the reason the soldiers got punished now is that the press covered it so that it couldn't be ignored. unless it's a really big coincidence that the press covered it right before there was going to be a big sweeping overhaul of the system.

whether the arab world feels outraged at our casualties has no bearing on whether we should be outraged when our soldiers abuse prisoners. and if by "move on", you mean "learn from it and make sure it never happens again" that can only be done by looking right at it and making sure that america's outrage is clear. otherwise, forgetting/pretending it ever happened won't help one bit. if our bar for moral behavior is "not as bad as torture under sadaam", we are not going to win.

Successfully updated karma reason!

those kind of contractors arent there to give estimates on a new roof. theyre armed and trained and apparently put themselves in harm's way.

One might say the same thing about the Iraqi POWs.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Very true. And neither was justified.

Bringing this thread back to the article though.

It now appears that the red cross warned the British military of possible human rights abuses in late February, 7 weeks before the first newspaper reports. The British parliament is now calling for the defense minister to reveal what the military did about the accusations.

This is very important. Did the British military immediately put a stop to this or not? And if not why not? That's the question that must be answered. The same question the Americans need to answer. While the UK was only given 7 weeks warning before newspaper reports (as oppossed to over 1 year for the US), the question of what they were doing is critically important. If in 7 weeks they failed to do anything to stop this treatment then they are as guilty as the Americans of allowing torture to occur. Time will tell.

Paul.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Further news on this. Today the minister for defense will address the British houses of parliament. While refusing to publish the Amnesty international report (because it also contains the US abuses) he will state that the UK military did indeed act on all recommendations of the report. Investifations into all deaths in British custody are complete and investigatinos into all allegations are continuing.

Sounds like the UK government did indeed act as soon as they received information.

The problem is that without knowing what was in the report there is no way for people to be sure that the recommendations have been implemented.

Paul.

Successfully updated karma reason!

It's not just the Americans

The Brits are doing it too.